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Looks like no preseason games....

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by KeyFin, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Evidently the NFL and the player's association have agreed that there will be NO preseason games and continue discussions on safety policy.
     
  2. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    That would come down to your personal definition of idiot I think.

    I am in no way calling you an idiot, but to me one definition of an idiot is someone who doesnt aire on the side of caution when something isnt proven in either direction.

    In other words, if a person even believes there is a 0.0001% chance masks work, that is logically better than a not wearing a mask which has 100% no additional benefit.

    If you can prove definitively they dont I'd ask for that evidence, because that is what I base my personal choices on and I'm always open to new evidence.

    So which medical journals and studies brought you to your personal conclusion? I'm more than willing to look at them myself.

    Again, not calling you stupid or an idiot. I just kind of want to see how you came to your conclusion. By at least acknowledging each others thoughts we come closer to understanding.

    To just say we will never agree IMO is a cop out.

    Edit: Maybe PM them to me if you want to as I dont want this to become a POFO type discussion among people and get locked.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    There have been several articles over the past few months in the New England Journal of Medicine. There were different studies done as far back as 2005 on the effectiveness of masks preventing the spread of influenza.

    Look, I don't have an issue if someone chooses to wear a mask. I don't judge. I have an issue with mandates. If there is a mandate, then there needs to be hard data justifying the need for a mandate, not simply "it's better than nothing." Know what I mean?
     
  4. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    That NEJM article does not say what you think and they specifically released a statement noting as such: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2020836
    Those other studies you reference also do not say what you think they say, and I wonder if you got your information from that paper written by the Ontario Civil Liberty group or whatever it was. You are trying to find evidence that supports a presupposed theory based on your political leanings.
     
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  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    What do you think they say? I mean, I didn't want to get all into it, but if you're going to accuse me of essentially lying...

    Or this one:

    And yes, also read their second one. A spectacular effort to walk back there first article, without every saying that it was wrong.

    So, again, both articles are stating that the data does not indicate that wearing a mask out in say, a grocery store, has almost any benefit. This isn't about my political beliefs.
     
  6. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It is true, I believe I've read, that transmission outdoors is not really a big problem as long as you socially distance. The argument then becomes if people aren't heeding socially distancing, then yes they need to wear a mask.

    Indoors is a whole different ballgame.

    I would also argue 5% is still a large % regarding this virus' exponential transmission abilities, but that's a personal belief.
     
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  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Coming back to this a week later, I never meant to imply you're an idiot Resnor. I simply meant that it makes sense to err on the side of caution and I think there's been enough evidence to say that the masks probably have some effect. That doesn't mean 100% safe...it might not mean 10% safe...but recent CDC studies have pointed to believing that "less exposure means you get less virus exposure and you end up less sick overall."

    Like we've both said, that could be 100% wrong; maybe there's no stopping this virus and it simply has to run it's course. But if there's any chance that I could better protect myself and others, then I'm going to take that chance. For instance, I donated blood yesterday since they're using recovered/asymptomatic COVID patients blood as a possible treatment. Does it work? Who knows- but local hospitals are asking for it so I didn't hesitate...even though I have no idea if my blood has antibodies (my doctor thinks I had it in April).

    Again, I apologize that you took offense to my post because it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. We just see this from different angles.
     
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  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    No, I didn't think you meant it personally...I just see many people who do actually believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them on masks are complete idiots.

    I just disagree with mandates...but that is based on where I live, and what we have had for cases here in NH. I'm not saying that an urban area with a dense population shouldn't have different guidelines or expectations than a rural areas with a very spread out population.
     
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  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    They say "below 5%.". So, it's less than 5%...it certainly makes me wonder why they didn't specify the actual percent. Maybe they can't. Maybe it's a 1% chance. But, again, it kinda irks me that we are constantly being asked to accept things without real, concrete numbers and data.
     
  10. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What you said. Even when they say their orders are based on science and data they never present it.
     
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  11. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Here's the thing- this is 4 months old. Who would have thought in January that the US would face a pandemic where we'd be asked to stay at home? It was inconceivable.

    Right now, we have a massive scientific community doing research and trying to get the word out, but all of that sifts through the CDC and every area is working off different sets of #'s. Plus, testing kits have been unreliable, states have reported incorrectly, etc....so I don't want to see "the numbers" personally because they are inevitably wrong. People going to extremes on either side to cloud the conversation makes all this 10x harder as well.

    For me personally, I've heard enough to believe that masks might have some effect. I've already had COVID (we think?!?) so I'm not trying to protect myself from this. And I'm not worried about spreading it to others either because like I said, I shouldn't be spreading it 15 weeks later (if I even had it....which we don't know for sure because testing in my area sucks).

    Instead, I wear a mask inside every store because it puts others at ease. To me, it's respectful for the staff working in these conditions and it's respectful to others who are paranoid over this. I'm in a rural area where we don't seem to have a lot of sickness (or the testing simply sucks), so when I go into a gas station or something like that, I'm usually the only person wearing a mask and a lot of people look at me funny. I really don't care though- I'm wearing a mask because it's recommended and I made a personal decision.

    I kept mentioning bad testing in my area because my doctor has repeatedly told me that we have around 10-15 "official" positive cases in this area daily yet she's personally seeing way more than that who are clearly sick from COVID. The loss of smell, chest tightness, fever etc. is a dead giveaway and those folks are consistently testing negative in my county. The next county over on either side of us has consistently seen 20x our local numbers, so I don't believe that it's rare here like the govt. is reporting....and I believe that's why it's still spreading at such a frantic pace in the south.

    Everything about testing and reporting is flawed due to how quickly this had to be implemented, so I'm not blaming the government or anyone else. Years from now we'll see that so much of this was handled poorly due to logistics; a lot more will come out that the average American doesn't realize. Again though, I'm not faulting anyone since it was an impossible task. Hopefully this serves as a learning platform for much more dangerous viruses in the future...for that reason alone I think this is a good thing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  12. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    My wife is a RN, and a good one. At her hospital, they now regularly treat patients in their 20s and 30s who have severe and permanent damage from Covid 19. People who were otherwise healthy prior to getting infected.

    A 5% chance of infection seems pretty high risk to me, and that's not considering if a person who's been infected coughs right next to you. Personally, I have zero problems with a mandate for the sake of the greater good. If that means that one person out of 20 doesn't get infected, that seems like it should be a no brainer for everyone. If that means that one person in 1000 doesn't get infected, then to me it does too, though I know people who don't agree.

    I don't leave my home much now. Maybe once a week for a quick trip to the store. But I and my kids always have our masks properly on, and if I see a person who's not wearing one, I keep my distance as much as humanly possible. They might as well be radioactive. And I certainly don't plan on going in public without a mask until there's a proven vaccine, my whole family has gotten it, and it seems to be working to control the spread. If that means next year, or if that means several years from now, it is what it is.
     
  13. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Real concrete numbers and data take years.
     
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  14. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    All the more reason to be more heated in approach, and not overreacting to predictive models that were wrong, right?

    I mean maybe that's where the disagreement comes in.

    Hope everyone stays healthy.
     
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  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Yea that is where the disagreement is, because waiting until everything is known before making a decision would just kill a lot of people.

    Also, the productive models were not wrong, they were predicting a scenario fo what would happen if nothing changes. They are just one bit of information that should be used before making a decision.

    They are going to change when more things are known.
     
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  16. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm not sure how far we can push this conversation...lol. But, I disagree with that due to the Penn State study that came out last month showing that we were 90x more infected in March than we thought, and that the infection rate doubled faster than we thought. That study further said that the lockdown and masks were "closing the barn doors after the horses were already out."

    Anyway, like I said, I hope everyone stays healthy.
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    That is still an estimate and we will not know for sure until 2022.

    Still, I think people worry too much about deaths and not about the strain on the hospitals and the staff. This is going to cause a lot of problems years to come
     
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  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah I agree...but that is also why I keep saying, it depends on where you live.
     
  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, but those horses who are already out are coming into contact with more horses....who come into contact with even more horses still.

    While there's a lot we don't know, it is scientific fact that humans spread this to other humans. If it were my call to make, I would lock down the entire country for three weeks- nobody in or out except for police, and cops are quarantined at a hotel. Hospital workers stay at the hospital or a nearby hotel...all hotels are closed otherwise. All stores are closed- including gas stations. Shut down trucking, shipping, mail, etc. Shut down absolutely everything for 21 days and put the country on total lockdown like they did in China, then waive all mortgages, rent, utilities, etc. for that month. Have 1 more stimulus for $500 per person, which is to buy food/necessities to ride it out for 3 weeks.

    I honestly believe our nation would be COVID-free in three weeks besides the lingering patients still in the hospital. And I realize that we'll probably never do this because it's America and we have our freedoms, but I can't stop thinking, "What if we did this in April?"

    - We'd have a preseason game this Sunday.
    - The economy would have already recovered.
    - Kids would go back to school safely...and they would have graduated in their schools last June
    - People wouldn't be going stir crazy
    - Gyms, salons and restaurants would be 100% back to normal

    We can do all of this in three short weeks- 21 days of everyone sacrificing for the country and this is basically over. It honestly drives me nuts that we're still talking about masks, testing, etc almost 5 months later when we've had a 21 day cure all along....without 150k US deaths.
     
  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That's crazy talk. I mean, honestly, if your state needs to shut down, then shut down. Why should NH shut down? The only deaths we really actually have are in nursing homes.

    And honestly, I'm not sure how you waive mortgage/rent payments. You've already got lenders/landlords who haven't collected payment for months. Are they just going to be out thousands of dollars?
     
  21. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    The federal gov could force the issue with the banks. They won't of course, but they could.
     
  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Make the banks eat the loss? Honestly, the rent/mortgage thing is gonna be a problem. There are people right now who are having their payments deferred...if you aren't able to pay your rent right now, how are you going to afford $10k, or more, once landlords are allowed to evict for non-payment?
     
  23. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Holy moly
     
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  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Let's do some math. $600/week for unemployed the past 3 months, extensive small business loans (which are forgiven), $1200 per taxpayer stimulus (plus a 2nd round coming), and the list goes on for days.

    Instead, shut EVERYTHING down for 3 weeks, don't pay anyone anything (other than the $500/person incentive), and negotiate with banks/utilities to accept the missing month's payment over the next 10-12 months in installments. Then further back that up by allowing a one-time housing/utility assistance payment for xxx income levels. Everyone gets paid, nobody starves and the savings over our current plans would probably end up in the trillions.

    Now, I've thought about this for maybe 30-45 minutes....thousands of our government's top leaders have thought about this for five months. So if this idea makes ANY SENSE AT ALL, the problem isn't actually COVID. We don't talk politics here so I'll leave it at that, but a three-week shutdown has been the smartest answer this entire time for dozens of self-explanatory reasons (crashed economy, massive unemployment, 150k deaths, vast mental health issues, billions more in testing/PPP, etc, etc, etc.)
     
  25. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Easier to just give people money to stay home and pay bills, but then others get all grumpy about "freeloaders" as if this isn't an extraordinary situation.

    We don't need to be making guesses on what we should be doing. Nearly every other nation on earth has handled this better than us - why? Because they don't have problems giving people money to not infect others, don't have problems with large portions of the populace masking, etc.

    Asking people to wear a mask is the simplest and easiest thing to do, but we can't even get that right. It's no more a threat to liberty than asking you to stop at a stop light or wear a seatbelt or not drive drunk. For most, it's a minor inconvenience. For some it's greater or even not possible, but there are options out there to use such as grocery pickup/delivery instead of in-store shopping.

    This time period sucks. Covid sucks. Everything sucks. But why do we have to exacerbate things and actively make it worse? This isn't normal, and no matter how hard we try to pretend or "get back" to normalcy it won't happen right now, doubly so if we can't get on the same basic pages.
     
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  26. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Not for nothing, many countries other than the United States, who supposedly did things the right way, are now having problems.

    Massive protest in Berlin, Germany right now over masks/vaccines. Protestor In Germany holding a sign that says "The mask is the Nazi Jewish star of the unvaccinated."
     
  27. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    There are going to be trouble makers everywhere, of course. No society is perfect.
     
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