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Lamar Miller wants to stay!

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dolfan40, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    So you're going to ignore the countless examples of guys in other cities that were literally picked up off the street (or for late picks) and became productive NFL backs? Again, Williams, Ivory, Rawls, Freeman, Murray etc.?
     
  2. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    The lack of ability in the Dolphins FO to identify talent does not somehow validate the logic that paying Lamar is the correct decision from a roster construction standpoint. If we're ever going to turn this thing around, at some point you have to have confidence that the people in these roles are going to end up doing their jobs.

    And the ground game isn't back. Running the football is not how you win. You're going to throw the 13-0 Carolina Panthers in my face, and I'm going to point to their QB playing at an MVP-level.
     
  3. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 Write Travis Write Club Member

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    Freeman and Murray were picked in the same round as Lamar Miller....
     
  4. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    Exactly. That's the point. A 4th rounder under team control for four years is a hell of a lot cheaper than a multi-year commitment to a FA veteran.
     
  5. SCall13

    SCall13 ThePhins QB

    Lamar Miller has been the x factor all year when it comes to Miami winning or losing. When we give him the ball, we win. When we don't, we lose. The guy is as talented as just about any back in the league but, apparently, winning games is not on our agenda. Keep this kid in Miami and utilize him (and Ajayi) and we are a solid team. Running the ball helps set our offense up for play action plays (that HAVE been very effective). Running the ball: we average close to 5 yards per clip. Our running backs are pretty darn good at catching passes. Running the ball rests the defense (a defense that currently can use all the rest it can get). But we don't do it. It is truly mind boggling, and one of the reasons why Campbell shouldn't even be slightly considered to stay on.
     
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  6. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 Write Travis Write Club Member

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    It's more than just the dollars and cents, though. What kind of message are you sending to the rest of the players when a guy like Lamar Miller who has improved every aspect of his game, become a top five player at his position and you just let him walk. Not to mention, while those guys do exist, you're certainly not guaranteed to find one to come in and be productive right away.

    Do you think the Rams are regretting investing a top 10 pick and 4 millions bucks a year to Todd Gurley?
     
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  7. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It all depends on how much he wants. The one good thing about his underutilization is that his FMV hasn't skyrocketed. We should give him 20-25 carries ... but he's never had to do so over 16 games. Can he? I'm sure he could but that uncertainty hurts his value and will help a team who signs him.

    I see him signing $5-7m per year but $7m per year is a lot ...
     
  8. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    For starters, Lamar Miller is not a top 5 back in the NFL. He's just not.

    But whatever, it doesn't matter. Let's talk about a generational talent like Adrian Peterson, what has he done for the Vikings success over his career? In fact, what run-first team has won **** recently? The point is that RBs are just not valuable assets, and in any given year you can get 80% of what a generational talent like AP is going to give you off of the street or from a heap of retreads (like Williams or Forsett or Ivory).

    Funny you mention Gurley. The Rams are 4-7 since his debut. So do they regret it? I don't know, maybe, since all that production hasn't done jack **** in the standings.

    And the message you're sending is that the NFL is a business.
     
  9. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure you are aware how inept our offense has been. Lamar is a known commodity and producing 5.1 ypc (tied for 5th) despite not playing behind one of the better OLs in the league and a QB that stretches the defense. He also averaged 5.1 last year so it's not a fluke. He is only 24 years old and has limited carriers during his 4 years (595) so it's unlikely he will be wearing down any time soon. He is also a threat to catch the ball.

    So am I going to ignore the example of guys in other cities? Nope, but I'm also aware there have been more failures of teams trying to find a feature back than hits. Also, Miami has many holes to fill so I would prefer they don't spend a draft pick on a RB either.

    I'm not saying break the bank to bring him back, but if it is fair-market price he's worth it.
     
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  10. shamegame13

    shamegame13 Madison & Surtain

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    Didnt read any comments before me, but it is really frustrating how our OC's are the complete worse at identifying the fact that our offense is built to be a smashmouth offense with Lamar carrying the rock more than the despicably low amount he is getting now because that is how we are successful and to stop passing the ball like we have a top 10 QB... Its horrifying seeing this week in and week out, we should be getting Lamar 17-22 carries a game with Ajayi getting 8-12 and even have Jarvis cut into the mix because thats just who he is as a player. Our personnel is built for this but passing 45+ times seems to be the clueless OCs (Lazor, then I thought Taylor learned to run Lamar but who knows with him now) gameplan on a weekly basis so we can go perhaps 8-8, 7-9, 6-10 on the season... for the past 3 seasons, when does this BS end?

    As for Lamar Miller, I hope they realize his potential and pay him and use him like an actual starting RB and feed him the ball on a consistent weekly basis, if they dont, good luck elsewhere Lamar, I will bet he tears it up
     
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  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    We're gonna need a little more evidence than..."he's just not", if you want people to accept your opinion.
     
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  12. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    The Seahawks, namely. The undefeated Panthers, Harbaugh's Niners, Ravens with Ray Rice, last year's Cowboys before they got screwed by the catch rule in the playoffs. These are legit contenders. Even when Aaron Rodgers won that Super Bowl, the Packers in the playoffs were running it considerably more than they were in the reg season...and tehy're trending towards that again this season too. It can be done.

    I'm in favor of re-signing Miller even at a steep-ish price tag, simply because this QB needs a run-first offense. He's not good enough to sit back there and throw it like the Mannings, Bradys, Bens, Palmers, etc. Get him under center and establish the run with a couple quality backs, and I think Miller and Ajayi are totally viable there. Lamar's game has really improved since he got here, and Lord knows he doesn't have too much wear and tear.

    Next season is make or break for Tannehill, so let's not cut corners putting him in the kind of system he needs.
     
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  13. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    Look, if you really think he's a better runner than one of AP, Charles, Bell, Forte, Lynch, Foster (when healthy) or even Gurley, among others, then I don't know what to tell you.

    Hell, a street FA in Forsett last year put up a better YPC number (and superior overall year) than Lamar did last season and quite possibly could have done so again this season if not for injury.
     
  14. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    Of course, the flip side of this is that you're allocating money to a plug-and-play position. I could just as easily say the reason I don't want Miller resigned is because we have too many holes to fill. And so the delta in cash between Lamar's FA contract extension and the rookie salary of a 4th round pick or the minimum salary of a street FA should be allocated to other areas of the field that are not plug-and-play.
     
  15. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    The Seahawks, Ravens and Cowboys are all terrible examples to dispute my point. I'm not arguing that the running game is not important. I'm arguing that its dumb to spend money on a 'feature back.' All three of those teams highlight my point. Lynch misses some time this year in Seattle. What happens? Rawls comes out of nowhere and literally sets the league on fire until he goes down. The Ravens? They cut Ray Rice and sign a retread in Justin Forsett. What happens? He becomes probably the most efficient RB in the NFL in 2014. The Cowboys have a borderline 2,000 yard rusher in Demarco Murray. What happens? They let him walk to a division rival because they understand that the position is plug-and-play. The feature back is so valuable that the two hottest teams in the AFC both lost their undisputed top 5 RBs and have not missed a beat since.

    Like I said, the best RB of our generation in Adrian Peterson, what exactly has he done for the overall success of the Vikings? How about Jamaal Charles?

    The position just isn't that valuable in today's game and every single year you're finding depressed assets that literally come out of nowhere and produce 80% or more of what AP is giving the Vikings. Its asinine to invest cap space there.
     
  16. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I think you are failing to see what Lamar could be if he got more touches. He could be another Faulk type player if they used him right.
     
  17. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    Maybe he wants to stay... really. I say give him a decent offer and use the 1st Q playbook from against the Giants until him and Tannehill can't run any more. Take the rest of it and stomp it, spit on it, kick it, throw it... then burn it to dust.

    I used to play Madden 13 alot... it was hard to hold on to him because his ratings were so low. His young age helped and holding on to him really helped year 4 and 5 of his career after the loss of Bush and others. Plus D.Thomas' rating was even lower. Dang.

    *Another note is I kept Moore for a couple of years as the starter with Tannehill as a backup. For the 2015 game draft I got a stud QB in the first round (pick 6) after trading up with my 1RD, and a 3RD from 2016. Another interesting thing is the Falcons drafted a QB with the very next pick to get Ryan's replacement. Funny. Seems Madden13 doesn't like Tannehill OR Ryan.

    I mention this because Madden is just like real life... Hahaha.
     
  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    So, you have no evidence then? Ok, thought so.
     
  19. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    1 question'

    Why doesn't every team have a "feature back", or maybe I should say, since you make it sound like they are as easy as picking up shells on a beach, multiple "feature backs"?
     
  20. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If our team had a history of finding good running backs cheap and off the waiver or late in drafts, sure you can let Miller walk. But we don't. Sure we have Miller. But then backed him up with Daniel Thomas and Damian Williams. As long as Miller doesn't demand top dollar you want to resign him.
     
  21. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    This is like asking me to defend that water is wet. I've seen your shtick, and frankly I don't care enough to educate you on why Le'Veon Bell is a superior RB to Lamar Miller.
     
  22. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    Make no mistake, I think the Dolphins will resign him. I just think its a poor decision in the grand scheme of roster construction. Like I mentioned up thread, the fact that the FO has been atrocious in areas related to personnel over the last decade does not somehow lend validity to the idea that resigning Miller is the correct decision or the most efficient and effective use of resources.
     
  23. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    You've got no argument with me about Bell being better than Miller, hands down I agree, but RBs aren't as easy to find as you're making it out, sure thay can be found throughout the draft and as UDFAs, but it's completely hit or miss, for every RB you find there are 30 who failed.
     
  24. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    In a vacuum I agree with what you're saying. But roster construction is not done in a vacuum. The hit rate for Street FAs, UDFAs and late round picks at RB is significantly higher than any other position on the field. And since we're dealing with a finite number of resources in a capped league, what position would you prefer to go 'cheap' on in lieu of RB?

    At some point you have to have confidence in your FO to do their jobs. A competent FO should be able to find you serviceable RBs on the cheap without having to allocate swaths of the cap towards it. All the successful franchises have done so.

    The Cowboys literally had a 2,000 yard rusher on their hands, and said no thanks. And handed the job off to freakin' Joseph Randle, Darren McFadden and Lance Dunbar. And despite how this season has turned out for the Cowboys, I think they would do it all over again if given the choice. If nothing else, they're not on the hook for Murray's contract.
     
  25. muskrat21

    muskrat21 Well-Known Member

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    What is that? Haven't had one in over 20 years.
     
  26. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Look at what KC has done with Spencer Ware and Charcandrick West. Bills got a good'n in Karlos Williams. Jeremy Langford.

    We just suck at it. Miller is good though. Really good. I've always been a fan even when I thought he was a soft runner. But this year, he's really good. He needs the ball more. Him and Ajayi need to be featured, with Tanny a game manager. Let Tanny grow into someone who played well like Andy Dalton.
     
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  27. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    The KC comparison is a great one. We need to emulate them and hope Tannehill isn't as limited as Smith. I believe is, though, and isn't as instinctual.


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  28. Phins_Fan_87

    Phins_Fan_87 Phins and Heat fan Club Member

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    upgrade the oline and miller will be a star
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Shtick?

    Wanting you to provide some evidence instead of just making declarations, is me being the bad the guy?

    Cool story bro.
     
  30. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the difference in our views is your saying it is a plug-and-play position and I am not. Comparing Miller to the other RBs Miami has on it's roster:

    Miller = 151 rushes, 769 yards (5.1), 7 TD
    All other RB (no Landry, Tannehill, etc...) = 70 rushes, 304 yards (4.34) = 0 TD

    Now also take out Ajayi from the other RBs (b/c I think he is also a good one and compliments Miller nicely) and:

    43 rushes, 169 yards (3.9) = 0 TD

    Even with Ajayi added into the mix, on average, if Miami hands the ball off to Miller on 1st and 2nd down Miami has a 1st and 10. If Miami hands the ball off to other RBs on 1st and 2nd down then Miami would be facing 3rd and 1.5 yards to go.

    Over the course of the season Miller getting .76 more yards per attempt is big. How big? For example, Brady gets .75 more yards per attempt passing the ball than Tannehill.
     
  31. dgfred

    dgfred Free Agent pickup

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    I don't get it. We fuss about getting the OL better so Miller and Tannehill can succeed... then we fuss over the money we gave Tannehill and talking of letting Miller go. By the time we get the OL decent... we are on the way to dumping the other 'possible' talents. Shouldn't we keep the 'possible' talents (we don't really know because the OL is soooo bad) and work on fixing the problems there and on defense?

    dgfred scratches head in bewilderment.
     
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  32. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    I can't think of one good reason to let Miller go. He's bulked up, he's closer to a complete RB than ever, his production is good and his pay will be low considering how RBs are paid in the modern era.

    Haven't we won every game he's been given 20+ carries this season? He's capable of carrying the team.


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  33. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    I don't care that it hasn't been a plug-and-play position in Miami historically or currently. We've been a bad/meddling organization going on 15-years now. There's a reason for that.

    What does matter - it is a plug-and-play position league-wide. Just because it is not currently in Miami is more of an indictment on our FO than it is on the thought process I've set forth in this thread.

    Look at what has transpired this year in Seattle (Lynch/Rawls) or Pittsburgh (Bell/Williams) or Kansas City (Charles/Davis/Ware/West) or Baltimore (Forsett/Taliaferro/Buck Allen) or New England (Lewis/Blount/Bolden) or Denver (Hillman/Anderson). Frankly, you can go on-and-on with the examples of teams using flyers on guys that end up being forced into action while blossoming into productive NFL backs. There's no denying it.

    At the end of the day, I think Miller is a very good NFL RB. I like him as a fan. But resigning him is not a good use of resources. I don't know any other way to say it.
     
  34. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Finite resources. If he wants the bank, you have to make decisions.
     
  35. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    As long as he's averaging below $10 million per season, I'm fine with it. WRs get that and they're nowhere near as valuable as he is for this team.


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  36. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    Committing anywhere near the vicinity of $10 million per to Lamar would be insane. Totally insane.

    But since we're on the topic - if you plan on committing that kind of money to a RB, what position group do you plan on using to finance our lavish spending along the DL?
     
  37. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Anywhere near? $7 million would be insane? Hartline was paid 6 per and that was debatable before...

    I wouldn't have spent that money on Suh or Tannehill. I'm not the GM or President of Football Operations. Blame Hickey or Tannenbaum, not me.


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  38. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No effing way he gets $10m. No way we should pay that much. WRs don't get hurt like RB's do. Mark Ingram got $4m last year. No way Miller is worth 150% more.
     
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  39. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    I'm saying below $10 million per. I'd be fine with $7 million per. In his best season, Tannehill had his best season. When he's gotten over 20 touches per game, we're undefeated this season. That says a lot. Without him we're ****. Pay the man his money and stop wasting it on guys like Wallace, Suh and Tannehill.


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  40. IdrA

    IdrA Rebuilding for Eternity.

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    If he really wants to stay in Miami he won't expect us to offer him a big contract. 3 years/20 mil years sounds fair.
     
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