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Just throw Tuaman in the Trenches

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Grippa, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    for me, it just isn’t worth the risk. We’re not a playoff team, he’s coming off of a major injury and I’d rather let him heal and learn. Even though I didn’t like the pick, he was a consensus #1 coming into last season and I get why they rolled the dice. On top of that, I trust the coaches decision who see him every day in practice and who have access to team doctors who know how his recovery is coming.

    Let me put the question back to you and others that want to start him, why rush? What do you think it’s going to do for this team?
     
  2. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Two reasons. 1. I'd like to see what we have in him. If he sucks, we've got to do whatever is necessary to get Trevor Lawrence next year. 2. If he is as good as most people on here think he is, let him play now and hopefully get rid of any rookie mistakes he may make this year instead of dealing with them in year two. Also, he's medically cleared to play or he wouldnt be the back up. Him getting injured is a lame excuse. If he never hurt his hip, would you be saying don't play him because on any play he could blow his knee out? Why draft him if they are afraid to play him?
     
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  3. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Miami could have two top 10 picks next draft. It will mean alot to see if Tua can play or not in this league right now.
     
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  4. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    You really need to stop suggesting that Tua not starting immediately means he's not good. There's no evidence whatsoever that a QB sitting, even for more than a season, and even behind below average QB's, means he's not good.

    When Aaron Rodgers sat 3 years behind Brett Favre, you might say.. well that's Brett Favre! You mean the Brett Favre that had a 70.9 rating in 2005 (9 points below league average) and led his team to a 4-12 record in the year Rodgers was drafted? Rodgers (one of the best ever) must not be good right.. couldn't beat out a below average QB!

    Brady sat for over a year on a 5-11 team behind a below average Bledsoe and only started after Bledsoe got injured. Not even the great Belichick could see Brady was a better option than a below average QB in Bledsoe after a full season of watching Brady in practice on a team with a 5-11 record!

    I think the real take-home message from all this is that practice and preseason are NOT reliable ways of evaluating QB's. Too many misses to suggest that.

    So I'm all for seeing Tua start a decent sample size worth of games this year — already suggested the best time would be around week 9 with Arizona after which you have the Jets twice with a bye week in-between (a nice string of weak teams, and sample size would end up being half the season) — but you really need to stop suggesting that Tua is a wasted pick just because he can't beat out Fitz. It's more likely that practice/preseason isn't that informative.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
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  5. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    All fair points but why is week 9 the magic time to start him? Why does he have to wait until we play bad teams before he starts? He's an NFL QB that was drafted #5 overall. He shouldn't have to be babied. Please explain how burrow and Herbert are playing but we have to wait for the perfect time for our QB to play.
     
  6. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    The jump from college to NFL is huge, so it's always good (regardless of the QB) to start with easier games if you can manage that. Often it can't be managed because the schedule is predetermined, but in our case it can.

    As far as why Burrow and Herbert are starting, well first of all Herbert wouldn't be starting if it wasn't for an injury to Taylor (due to a team doctor of all people!), so that's not a good comparison. If Tua doesn't start if/when Fitz is injured then you can complain. As far as Burrow? There is no one else at QB to start there. There is no "Fitz".
     
  7. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    I think Taylor is ok to play now but Herbert is still going to be the starter. And as far as no one else in Cincinnati to play QB, it's not like fitz is Marino. He's an average at best QB. Tua should be able to beat him out
     
  8. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Once you prove it in the NFL of course you'll keep starting. So Herbert will continue to play because we've seen him in live action. But he wouldn't have started otherwise.

    And like I said 2 posts earlier, I think there's good evidence that practice and preseason aren't that good predictors of how good a QB really is in NFL games. So who cares if Tua "can't beat out Fitz" in practice? That doesn't tell you he wouldn't be much better than Fitz in real NFL games.
     
  9. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Very true but are we ever gonna get a chance to see him in real games? He hasnt taken one snap yet which is a red flag to me.
     
  10. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Well.. if you're agreeing with what I said about practice and preseason not being good predictors, then it's not a red flag. As far as when we'll see him in real games, that's something only Flores can tell you.
     
  11. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Because not every QB starts immediately. Because there is no golden rule to guarantee success. Some start immediately and succeed, others fail. Some wait a half season, whole season, maybe even more and succeed, others fail.

    Acting like a QB is a bust because he isn't starting immediately is just silly, and I say that coming from the perspective that I've seen enough of Fitz behind center.
     
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  12. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    It's not so much that he didnt start immediately, it's that fitz isn't taking us anywhere and our top 5 QB can't even sniff the field.
     
  13. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    Every time a team drafts a QB early, there are always some people who think that person should start immediately, if not sooner. Those who do start when drafted that early who succeed pale when compared to those who crash and burn. Been watching the Phins for about the same time I have been watching pro football - about 55 years. Most of the time we fans act like we know more than the coaches - wrongly. And almost every rookie quarterback needs some seasoning - but that does not mean thrown into the fire in desperation. If the coach is being patient about this - that is probably a very good thing, and he is not going to say it's because of {[(anything)]} because that gives opposition teams something for which they can aim their actions when he does start. But, it does allow fans to whine, vetch, b!tch, etc., etc., etc. UNTIL that magic moment occurs when he steps on the field and reveals whether he has IT or not!!!![And sometimes IT takes a long time to develope! Not everyone is born with IT!] Then, we see who the fans are and who the blabbergasting nimnodes [insert favorite pejorative concerning perspicacity, percentage of brain cells functioning, overweening impatience, or other insulting conditions including antique flatulence] are!
    Let the coach make that decision (as if we really have a voice in the matter!)
     
  14. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Ignoring the rest of your post and just talking about this statement in isolation, I don't agree with it. Yes, coaches have far more football knowledge than almost all of us fans, but they have been wrong so many times (and arguably the fans right) that I can't take a "trust the experts" approach.

    This doesn't just apply to predictable play calling tendencies by certain coaches that fans apparently see but coaches don't, but also personnel decisions. I still can't forget the shock when Wannstedt took Jamar Fletcher when almost every Miami fan was expecting Brees. More recently, how many of us were clamoring for spending what it took to draft a QB high in 2017 after Tannehill's injury? But Gase knew better right? With luck alone we would've had Mahomes or Watson.

    So no I don't trust the so-called "experts" because they get it wrong too often. That's obviously independent of the Tua discussion, as I've said I'm fine with Flores starting him later this season, but I hold that view because I don't see historical evidence that you have to start a QB picked high early, not because I trust Flores.
     
  15. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Once again, our coaches see him every day in practice. They should know whether he’s that guy or not.
     
  16. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    If you have a long term plan, there’s no need to rush. I think most rookie QB’s would benefit from being a back up for a year or two to adjust to the speed of the NFL and learn the new system. Set them up for success vs cave in to fan expectations were they are likely to fail.
     
  17. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I remember being in my car awhile ago, and there was a player coming off an injury and was medically cleared to play, but there was a debate about whether or not the player should actually play. Mike Golic, offering a player's perspective, made a point that might at face value might seem overly obvious, but it has sorta changed my perspective about injured players. Essentially he said, "What do you think medically cleared means? It means that he has been cleared medically by doctors who are experts in their field and are telling you that the player is not at further medical risk."

    The fact that Tua is active and Rosen was released shows that if Fitzmagic were to get injured, Tua would be the guy. Medically speaking, I think Tua is as good as he is going to be. I think if his hip is shot, it is shot, and it is a ticking time bomb.

    Generally speaking, whenever there is an established journeyman and a rookie, I say the moment to make the switch to the rookie is whenever the gap between the two is close. At this point, I couldn't imagine Tua being significantly worse than Fitz.

    I think also think that "learning on the sidelines" does not apply to all rookies equally. Tua is not a "specimen guy" in terms of rookie QBs. It is not like he has all these tools that need to be developed. If that were the case, letting him ride the pine would make sense. I am curious as to what exactly people think Tua is learning on the sideline. Mechanics? They are solid. Footwork? He has great feet. Accuracy? He already has solid accuracy.

    Now, could it be the system? Okay, this is something that would make sense to me. If he is totally lost, I would absolutely agree with you that he should not start. I just have a hard time believing that this is the case. I think that Tua is a sharp kid, and he probably does have grasp of the system but nowhere near that of Fitz. If I were to take an educated guess, I think that by this point in the season, he knows the system enough to go out there and learn as he goes.

    Now what else does he need to learn? Rhythm and getting in sync with his fellow teammates/receivers. I think that is something that you need to do on the field.

    Last but not least, I think recent history has shown us that coaches have been overly conservative to their own detriment when they try to keep quarterbacks on the sideline. This has happened with Tyrod Taylor TWICE. Hue Jackson left Baker Mayfield on the bench too long, and it cost him his job. Anthony Lynn kept saying that Justin Herbert wasn't ready, and Taylor suffered a freak injury when a team doctor punctured his lung. And whaddya know, Herbert was ready. Do you really think Joe Burrow was "ready?" In a perfect world, he would have had some time to learn. The Bengals had an established starter with Dalton on the roster, and they cut him before they even had a look at Burrow.
     
  18. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    Herbert wouldn't be playing if Taylor had not gotten hurt. That job was Taylors all day so leave Herbert out of this. Tua is coming off of a horrific injury. There should be no rush in putting him out there. I want to see him too, just as bad as the next man, but under his circumstances with the injury...It's probably better to wait. I don't think it has anything to do with his skillset, but more to do with properly grooming him and putting him in the best position possibly to succeed. One only has to look at Josh Rosen to understand WHY we are taking a "take it slow" approach with him.
     
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  19. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I thought Burrow was head and shoulders better than Tua before the injury.

    You bring up some good points. I’m honestly just not in any rush to see him until the coaches are ready. Let’s be real that our evaluations don’t mean sh**. It’s what they see that matters.
     
  20. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure that you're well aware that the last handful of coaches we've had have all made horrible decisions and evaluations. Why keep giving them the benefit of the doubt? Flores and Grier are no different. They screwed up taking tua and now they are trying to cover their asses. I'll keep saying it, burrow and Herbert are playing well as rookies yet tua hasnt taken one snap, even in garbage time. Why is that?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  21. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    What do the previous coaches decision making have to do with Brian Flores?

    My opinion would be they’re both better. I preferred both of them over Tua.
     
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  22. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    So did I. I knew we weren't gonna trade up for burrow but Herbert was there for the taking and we took Tua instead.
     
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  23. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I was pissed when we took Tua over Herbert. I’m biting my tongue and rooting for him now because we have to hope it’s not a wasted pick.
     
  24. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Well, if he was out there playing maybe we could get an idea. If they wait till next year to play him and he sucks then we're screwed again. I know this is probably an unpopular opinion but we need to do whatever is needed to get Trevor Lawrence. Bundle our two first rounders and Tua if necessary.
     
  25. Grippa

    Grippa Member

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    I loved it baby!!!

    I ain’t worrying! TUA WILL BE just fine . He is the savior of this franchise
    Just enjoy the ride boys.. you all about to get something Close to Russell Wilson!

    just watch !!
     

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