Joy on Cowherd - Start Rosen

"Deus ex dolphin wrote:

Win 6-7 games with Fitzmagic and you are out of draft position to grab a top QB in 2020. Then what? Trade away 1-2 future first round picks to move up (along with most of your 2020 picks in the first three rounds)? Don't grab a QB in 2020 and start Fitzmagic for another season?

Fitzmagic can win just enough to keep you from grabbing a top QB, but not enough to take the team to the playoffs. It's a terrible position to be in. Yes, he is better than Rosen at this point, but you'd expect that from a veteran QB. I wouldn't give Fitzmagic more than four games before letting Josh take over and either he shows something or tanks the season and Miami ends up with a top 3 pick in 2020.

As has been noted by some posters, making a change if Fitzmagic does not have a losing record will be difficult to do. Miami backed themselves into a corner on this.

This team isn't bad enough even with Rosen at the helm, to be at the #1 overall pick, so we're giving up draft capital either way. If we are that bad, then do we even have the right coaching staff? Rosen will get his chance again even if we draft someone in 2020, and one of those 2 guys will be traded for picks a couple years from now either way. This is a culture decision. You don't play the worse guy until he earns it, that's going to apply to a 2020 rookie as well.

I think Fitz starting isn’t necessarily a bad thing. For one, we’re trying to instill a culture of hard work pays off and no favorites. This reinforces that. Secondly, and according to some, Rosen has some attitude issues. Having him ride the bench would be good from that standpoint and make him earn the job.

As noted by Armando Salguero of the Miami Herald, Fitzpatrick has followed the proclamation by coach Brian Flores that the veteran has become the clear leader in the quarterback competition with a couple of very bad practices, on Wednesday and on Thursday. Per Salguero, Josh Rosen performed better than Fitzpatrick on each day.

Fitzpatrick’s consistent inconsistency should definitely be a factor in the final assessment as to whether he or Rosen should win the starting job. And if Fitzpatrick wins the job, Rosen needs to be ready, because it will be just a matter of time before Fitzpatrick’s on-field effort gives Rosen a chance to play.

"invid wrote:

This team isn't bad enough even with Rosen at the helm, to be at the #1 overall pick, so we're giving up draft capital either way. If we are that bad, then do we even have the right coaching staff? Rosen will get his chance again even if we draft someone in 2020, and one of those 2 guys will be traded for picks a couple years from now either way. This is a culture decision. You don't play the worse guy until he earns it, that's going to apply to a 2020 rookie as well.

Miami will be one of the worst teams in the league this year. Who are they better than right now? Arizona? Washington, maybe. Once Dolphin fans can get over this point it will be much easier to realize that seeing Rosen for as many games as possible will be vital going forward.

"TheHighExhaulted wrote:

Miami will be one of the worst teams in the league this year. Who are they better than right now? Arizona? Washington, maybe. Once Dolphin fans can get over this point it will be much easier to realize that seeing Rosen for as many games as possible will be vital going forward.

You can never predict with any accuracy which teams will implode and which ones will flourish in any given season. I realize that we're not stocked with the most talent, but we have no idea about the skill of this coaching staff. You want Rosen to be better? Let him overcome the adversity of not being handed a starting position.

"Galant wrote:

The question then becomes - what about our record? How can we get our QB if we don't finish with a high draft pick? And the answer to that is, I suspect, that Flores isn't interested in jockeying for draft position. They'll seek to make it work wherever they pick - thus they're going to need to have excellent draft selection and player development.

The Patriots have gone years without a high draft pick so it wouldn't surprise me if Flores doesn't feel that need nor want to play that game.

The Patriots lucked out with Tom Brady. That's why they never had to jockey for a high round pick to get their franchise QB.

Remember this thread/post?
https://www.thephins.com/threads/great-older-article-on-fitzpatrick.94351/page-8#post-3178047

A QB that plays at league average has a 2.719% of winning the SB that year. Flores I'm sure understands this intuitively and will be forced to jockey for a high draft pick to get that QB if he wants to retain his job. The QB position is simply too important to say it's fine to try and find a gem among leftovers with a mid-1st round pick.

As others have said, Rosen needs to win the job to play on Sundays. He's not a rookie and started 13 games last year, so no excuses. The goal is to find an elite QB, not develop a mediocre one. If he's an elite 2nd year prospect, camp should be competitive against a journeyman vet... if it's not, then dont waste your time.

"Hooligan wrote:

If Rosen had been OUR first round draft pick I could understand the need to rush him into the game to see what he's got. In reality, it's highly likely that he's not the man and all he ever was is a cheap roll of the dice. If he can't beat out a "career backup" in training camp then he's not ready and if he's not steady developing then he likely never will be. I trust Flores to make the call.

It's unfair to call Fitz a career backup, given that he's won the starting job on most teams he's been on.

To me this thread highlights the difference between a fan vs. a player or coach. A fan says that Rosen has to start b/c they've heard of his name :confused2:(or the dumbest of all arguments, "he was a 1st round pick for a reason"). Why isn't there a thread saying that Ruddock has to start? A coach or player asks, "is he any good". And they know that you prove that in practice.

By all accounts, Rosen isn't ready. Odds are he'll get his chance eventually either by injury or b/c Fitz has shown himself to be a very inconsistent starter. Rosen's best chance will be if that opportunity comes around when he is better prepared to handle it. To throw him in there now would be a disservice to him and every other player. Not to mention undermining what the coaching staff has preached since arriving here. This isn't about winning games. Reality is that Miami will draft a QB early next season regardless of what Rosen, Fitz or Ruddock do this year.

From what I've read, Fitzpatrick is CLEARLY outplaying Rosen by a very wide margin. There was one day this past week where Rosen looked really good and Fitz struggled, but every other practice has said Fitz is the guy for game 1.

However, this is early training camp folks. We know the starters are going to play a few series in pre-season and the backups will get the lion-share of the playing time. For that reason alone, I'd want Fitz my starter today and Rosen playing four halves (or more) during pre-season. Plain and simple, Rosen needs reps and Fitzpatrick doesn't.

The worst thing the Fins can do is hand the job over to a kid that's not ready....and one who got his ass handed to him last season. We saw that movie with Tannehill and it took this franchise 7 years to realize, "Hey, he really stinks in the pocket." If we would have started Moore for a couple of years and then brought in RT when he was handling the pocket well, maybe he would have developed into our franchise QB. Or maybe he never would have started and we moved on from him in 2015- that would have worked too.

But you can't start a young QB just because you want a 16 game audition. Rosen should start when he deserves to start...and not a moment sooner. This really has nothing to do with Fitzpatrick at all.

Check the Training Camp thread. Rosen stock went up today. People were excited.

This is a process and it needs to run its course.

Let's see if Flores knows what he's doing.

"Galant wrote:

Check the Training Camp thread. Rosen stock went up today. People were excited.

This is a process and it needs to run its course.

Let's see if Flores knows what he's doing.

From what I read, Rosen had one really good drive...that's all he played with the 1's that day. Rosen threw 2 TD passes and two more beautiful deep throws, although one of the TD's went right through Howard's hands...it was a bad pass he got lucky on. He admitted afterwards that he never should have thrown it. However, he beat Howard on a 40 yard shot as well that drive (on a day Howard had three picks and should have had the 4th on that lucky TD pass). So that alone is saying something when you're targeting the top CB in the league and winning some battles...

Not trying to praise or knock Rosen here at all though- I'm just saying that it's still early and all the hype means zero. Either Rosen or Fitz still has plenty of camp to take the starting job.

"KeyFin wrote:

From what I read, Rosen had one really good drive...that's all he played with the 1's that day. Rosen threw 2 TD passes and two more beautiful deep throws, although one of the TD's went right through Howard's hands...it was a bad pass he got lucky on. He admitted afterwards that he never should have thrown it. However, he beat Howard on a 40 yard shot as well that drive (on a day Howard had three picks and should have had the 4th on that lucky TD pass). So that alone is saying something when you're targeting the top CB in the league and winning some battles...

Not trying to praise or knock Rosen here at all though- I'm just saying that it's still early and all the hype means zero. Either Rosen or Fitz still has plenty of camp to take the starting job.

This was Travis' summary:

"...this was the 22-year-old’s best day in a Dolphins jersey. I asked Josh after practice if it’s safe to call him a gamer — given his penchant for playing better when the stakes are at the highest. Rosen danced around the question ultimately telling me, “I don’t want to use labels,” but I’ll do it for him — he’s a gamer.

He was sliding away from a relentless pass rush (more on that in a minute), he was accurate with a variety of throws (drives, deep shots, check downs), and made good decisions throughout. His worst throw was the touchdown to cap off a two-minute drill that saw him complete a 50-yard bomb to Kenny Stills on third-and-forever.

It’s unfair to arbitrarily pinpoint this on Rosen, but he was in there for two delay-of-game penalties."

I agree there's a lot of time and training camp to go. That was actually why I posted this here. It's way too soon to write him off (not saying you're saying that).

"KeyFin wrote:

From what I've read, Fitzpatrick is CLEARLY outplaying Rosen by a very wide margin. There was one day this past week where Rosen looked really good and Fitz struggled, but every other practice has said Fitz is the guy for game 1.

However, this is early training camp folks. We know the starters are going to play a few series in pre-season and the backups will get the lion-share of the playing time. For that reason alone, I'd want Fitz my starter today and Rosen playing four halves (or more) during pre-season. Plain and simple, Rosen needs reps and Fitzpatrick doesn't.

The worst thing the Fins can do is hand the job over to a kid that's not ready....and one who got his *** handed to him last season. We saw that movie with Tannehill and it took this franchise 7 years to realize, "Hey, he really stinks in the pocket." If we would have started Moore for a couple of years and then brought in RT when he was handling the pocket well, maybe he would have developed into our franchise QB. Or maybe he never would have started and we moved on from him in 2015- that would have worked too.

But you can't start a young QB just because you want a 16 game audition. Rosen should start when he deserves to start...and not a moment sooner. This really has nothing to do with Fitzpatrick at all.

Remember the original plan was not to start Tannehill. It was supposed to be Garrard until he had a knee injury. Then Tannehill beat out Moore. Tannehill would have been better served to sit a while and Rosen (despite playing a year) is not even at the level Tannehill was as a rookie.

"Galant wrote:

I agree there's a lot of time and training camp to go. That was actually why I posted this here. It's way too soon to write him off (not saying you're saying that).

Unfortunately, I can't load your tweets most of the time, so I didn't see Travis's piece (it's GREAT Travis is down in South Florida though!). I'm definitely not writing him off though because he's one of the cheapest QB's we've ever had....he could ride the bench for two years before starting and it would still be a home-run investment.

My biggest thing is for the team to give him the maximum chance to succeed whether it's starting next week or three seasons from now. We have no idea where he's at from the outside looking in, but I am rooting for him to get a fair chance at developing. One other thing I saw today was that the 2nd team offense had 15+ penalties in the scrimmage (off-sides, holding, etc) and no QB can have success in that kind of environment. Rosen only had one drive with the 1's; everything else was with that struggling 2nd string.

So if we can't get that ironed out....yeah, give me Fitz all day long and save Rosen for a more complete line.

"rafael wrote:

Remember the original plan was not to start Tannehill. It was supposed to be Garrard until he had a knee injury. Then Tannehill beat out Moore. Tannehill would have been better served to sit a while and Rosen (despite playing a year) is not even at the level Tannehill was as a rookie.

It's really hard to say where Rosen is at since he was literally running for his life. I went through his last six or seven weeks of throws last season (weeks 10-17) and he had a lot of beautiful passes absolutely on the money....while rolling out or ducking extended arms. To me, it's almost trying to compare a sandlot QB to Marino- there's just no way to tell because it's darn near two different sports. Rosen definitely has talent but we know that's not enough in this league- I'm excited to see what happens anyways.

Early on I felt that we should start Fitzpatrick and sit Rosen. Let Rosen get a little more learning time in and see what we have for an online.

After considering it for a while I think if Fitzpatrick starts, any game he wins hurts us. The only way we win games, and I want to win, and it doesn't hurt us going forward is If Rosen is starting. We gain nothing by winning games with Fitzpatrick so there is no point in putting him out there at all unless Rosen is hurt. I think there is still an argument to be made that waiting a little to see what happens with the line but I think it no longer matters.

There is really only one goal for this year - settling the QB position or having a plan to land a potential Franchise QB in the draft next year.

The downside to choosing to field an inferior QB is that it only focuses on the QB. A better QB inspires the rest of the offence and more importantly gives them a chance to play their best and come together.

"Tin Indian wrote:

Early on I felt that we should start Fitzpatrick and sit Rosen. Let Rosen get a little more learning time in and see what we have for an online.

After considering it for a while I think if Fitzpatrick starts, any game he wins hurts us. The only way we win games, and I want to win, and it doesn't hurt us going forward is If Rosen is starting. We gain nothing by winning games with Fitzpatrick so there is no point in putting him out there at all unless Rosen is hurt. I think there is still an argument to be made that waiting a little to see what happens with the line but I think it no longer matters.

There is really only one goal for this year - settling the QB position or having a plan to land a potential Franchise QB in the draft next year.

I still think whichever guy is the winner in camp has to get the start, as it's the only way to keep the buy in from the other players who are actually having to beat out another guy in order to start. As a coach, you have got to keep that process the same at every position, or you've lost already.

"resnor wrote:

I still think whichever guy is the winner in camp has to get the start, as it's the only way to keep the buy in from the other players who are actually having to beat out another guy in order to start. As a coach, you have got to keep that process the same at every position, or you've lost already.

If there is a huge gulf, then maybe you throw in Fitz until either Rosen improves or Fitz does his usual implosion.

But if it's even remotely close, gotta go with Rosen. The players have to understand that. And if not, then Fitz needs to be traded. Rosen is not going to get better sitting on the bench and playing practice second string snaps.

"texanphinatic wrote:

If there is a huge gulf, then maybe you throw in Fitz until either Rosen improves or Fitz does his usual implosion.

But if it's even remotely close, gotta go with Rosen. The players have to understand that. And if not, then Fitz needs to be traded. Rosen is not going to get better sitting on the bench and playing practice second string snaps.

Have you played any organized sports? If so, have you ever been on a team where a coach favored a player? Wouldn't hold him to the same expectations, didn't make him earn his spot like everyone else? Or played him over a better player?

I have. And it's toxic to the team.

"resnor wrote:

Have you played any organized sports? If so, have you ever been on a team where a coach favored a player? Wouldn't hold him to the same expectations, didn't make him earn his spot like everyone else? Or played him over a better player?

I have. And it's toxic to the team.

Yes and yes. There is a difference between pop warner/HS ball with the coach favoring his buddies kid or his own vs. grown professionals who realize that Fitz is not an answer to anything.

If this is the attitude we have toward Rosen, we'd have been better off just not trading for him. As it is, we are probably best off trading Fitz.

"texanphinatic wrote:

Yes and yes. There is a difference between pop warner/HS ball with the coach favoring his buddies kid or his own vs. grown professionals who realize that Fitz is not an answer to anything.

If this is the attitude we have toward Rosen, we'd have been better off just not trading for him. As it is, we are probably best off trading Fitz.

The difference I see is in the NFL playing time can mean more $$$, so I see some some guys getting upset if they perceive the process isn’t fair.

I see Rosen getting the nod if when the lights come on its a tie or better between him in Fitzgerald.

I'm personally torn on this.

On one hand, Fitz.

On the other hand, what does it say about Rosen if he can't at least hang with him?