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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Aug 1, 2019.
Warm bowl of soup.
That is a great description of Fitzpatrick
She's not wrong about Fitz.
Absolutely. Fitzpatrick starting is a failure. Simple as that.
I am hoping that the platitudes are mostly to serve as a "step up and match it" chip Flores is trying to put on Rosen.
I can see maybe a few (like, 2-3) games with Fitz, especially if the line is garbage, but really I'd rather just stick Rosen in, give him the reps, build him up and just ****ing go.
We took a flyer on him that - while the value argument can be made - was not really cheap. Put him in and play him. Figure it out.
The absolute worst thing in the world will be Ryan Fitzpatrick starting Week 1.
Complete waste of time.
Who is Joy Taylor?
As for Rosen, he shouldn't start until he EARNS the starting job. Same as everyone else. If he can't earn it, then we know what we have and should draft a QB next year.
I really think that this is the only only reasonable take.
I just don't know what starting Fitz accomplishes.
He has to beat Fitz out first. Flores laid out a code that the best guy will start, can't go back on it. 2020 QB will still be on the table.
A sportscaster that grew up in south florida.. shes a diehard heat/dolphin fan like most of us.
As i said in another thread, he is eventually going to get the start... ryan is good for 4 games a season and then he starts throwing interceptions like crazy.. but it would be better if Rosen had a full camp as the starter and start week 1.. see what hes made of
If Rosen was a rookie I understand letting Fitzpatrick play for a couple of games. But Rosen has started 13 games in this league and we have to get a full season evaluation out of him here. If he starts the last 10 games is that really enough of an evaluation going into the 2020 draft?
Get him out there. Now.
She is also JT's sister!
Oh yea that too... forgot to mention it
Since Flores has been saying from day one that all players have to earn their spot, he would lose all credibility if he just gave Rosen the job if it is evident to the rest of the team he didn't earn it. I get that we need to know if he is a franchise QB or not, but IMO, as HC Flores's reputation is more important. He's making a lot of changes, so he is going to need total buy-in from everybody on the team to make good things happen.
That would explain why she sounds like some of our posters.
Because those 13 games were catastrophic for the team and the player.
There is a reason why Rosen went thru 3 coaches last year and was going to be under another coach this year if the team kept him - and it had little to do with what Rosen brought to the game, since the game plan was laid out by the coaches, not the players.
This season is not JUST about evaluating a QB, we're trying to build a team and develop chemistry. The team development is much more important than any one player.
This is a moot debate anyway. Give Fitz all first team snaps in training camp and then start the season with Rosen? Broadcast loud and clear that we're tanking the season? Not going to happen unless Rosen shows something. Let's see what pre-season looks like first.
I don't want this team building chemistry with Ryan Fitzpatrick so they can go 7-9.
How can they start Rosen if he doesn't earn it, all while getting the other players earning their jobs?
If they're 1-3 to start the season with Fitzpatrick it won't matter whether he deserves it or not. The fanbase and front office will be screaming for Rosen to start.
If the job is is at least within striking distance for Rosen he better start the season. We don't need to see Fitzpatrick for 4 games.
I think we all are just going to have to sit back and watch. This is a different head coach with what clearly seems to be a different philosophy. When he says they're going to try to win I believe him, and so I do think he'll field the best QB and team every time. If that's not Rosen then that's the end of the Rosen discussion. The question then becomes - what about our record? How can we get our QB if we don't finish with a high draft pick?
And the answer to that is, I suspect, that Flores isn't interested in jockeying for draft position. They'll seek to make it work wherever they pick - thus they're going to need to have excellent draft selection and player development.
I think Flores would rather face that puzzle than field a less competitive team.
The Patriots have gone years without a high draft pick so it wouldn't surprise me if Flores doesn't feel that need nor want to play that game.
The other thing to bear in mind is that they could be aware that their QB will come in 2021, not next year. As such they could aim to amass more picks this year even with no low draft pick, and thereby gain draft ammunition for a high pick over two years without tanking...
Ultimately only time will tell but so far I think Flores looks like a man who will stick to his guns.
Right, at that point a change is warranted.
But you cannot give Player Y the starting job if they aren't outperforming Player X, and expect to get the other players to buy in....especially in your first year as coach.
If Rosen had been OUR first round draft pick I could understand the need to rush him into the game to see what he's got. In reality, it's highly likely that he's not the man and all he ever was is a cheap roll of the dice. If he can't beat out a "career backup" in training camp then he's not ready and if he's not steady developing then he likely never will be. I trust Flores to make the call.
Win 6-7 games with Fitzmagic and you are out of draft position to grab a top QB in 2020. Then what? Trade away 1-2 future first round picks to move up (along with most of your 2020 picks in the first three rounds)? Don't grab a QB in 2020 and start Fitzmagic for another season?
Fitzmagic can win just enough to keep you from grabbing a top QB, but not enough to take the team to the playoffs. It's a terrible position to be in. Yes, he is better than Rosen at this point, but you'd expect that from a veteran QB. I wouldn't give Fitzmagic more than four games before letting Josh take over and either he shows something or tanks the season and Miami ends up with a top 3 pick in 2020.
As has been noted by some posters, making a change if Fitzmagic does not have a losing record will be difficult to do. Miami backed themselves into a corner on this.
This team isn't bad enough even with Rosen at the helm, to be at the #1 overall pick, so we're giving up draft capital either way. If we are that bad, then do we even have the right coaching staff? Rosen will get his chance again even if we draft someone in 2020, and one of those 2 guys will be traded for picks a couple years from now either way. This is a culture decision. You don't play the worse guy until he earns it, that's going to apply to a 2020 rookie as well.
I think Fitz starting isn’t necessarily a bad thing. For one, we’re trying to instill a culture of hard work pays off and no favorites. This reinforces that. Secondly, and according to some, Rosen has some attitude issues. Having him ride the bench would be good from that standpoint and make him earn the job.
As noted by Armando Salguero of the Miami Herald, Fitzpatrick has followed the proclamation by coach Brian Flores that the veteran has become the clear leader in the quarterback competition with a couple of very bad practices, on Wednesday and on Thursday. Per Salguero, Josh Rosen performed better than Fitzpatrick on each day.
Fitzpatrick’s consistent inconsistency should definitely be a factor in the final assessment as to whether he or Rosen should win the starting job. And if Fitzpatrick wins the job, Rosen needs to be ready, because it will be just a matter of time before Fitzpatrick’s on-field effort gives Rosen a chance to play.
Miami will be one of the worst teams in the league this year. Who are they better than right now? Arizona? Washington, maybe. Once Dolphin fans can get over this point it will be much easier to realize that seeing Rosen for as many games as possible will be vital going forward.
You can never predict with any accuracy which teams will implode and which ones will flourish in any given season. I realize that we're not stocked with the most talent, but we have no idea about the skill of this coaching staff. You want Rosen to be better? Let him overcome the adversity of not being handed a starting position.
The Patriots lucked out with Tom Brady. That's why they never had to jockey for a high round pick to get their franchise QB.
Remember this thread/post?
A QB that plays at league average has a 2.719% of winning the SB that year. Flores I'm sure understands this intuitively and will be forced to jockey for a high draft pick to get that QB if he wants to retain his job. The QB position is simply too important to say it's fine to try and find a gem among leftovers with a mid-1st round pick.
As others have said, Rosen needs to win the job to play on Sundays. He's not a rookie and started 13 games last year, so no excuses. The goal is to find an elite QB, not develop a mediocre one. If he's an elite 2nd year prospect, camp should be competitive against a journeyman vet... if it's not, then dont waste your time.
It's unfair to call Fitz a career backup, given that he's won the starting job on most teams he's been on.
To me this thread highlights the difference between a fan vs. a player or coach. A fan says that Rosen has to start b/c they've heard of his name (or the dumbest of all arguments, "he was a 1st round pick for a reason"). Why isn't there a thread saying that Ruddock has to start? A coach or player asks, "is he any good". And they know that you prove that in practice.
By all accounts, Rosen isn't ready. Odds are he'll get his chance eventually either by injury or b/c Fitz has shown himself to be a very inconsistent starter. Rosen's best chance will be if that opportunity comes around when he is better prepared to handle it. To throw him in there now would be a disservice to him and every other player. Not to mention undermining what the coaching staff has preached since arriving here. This isn't about winning games. Reality is that Miami will draft a QB early next season regardless of what Rosen, Fitz or Ruddock do this year.
From what I've read, Fitzpatrick is CLEARLY outplaying Rosen by a very wide margin. There was one day this past week where Rosen looked really good and Fitz struggled, but every other practice has said Fitz is the guy for game 1.
However, this is early training camp folks. We know the starters are going to play a few series in pre-season and the backups will get the lion-share of the playing time. For that reason alone, I'd want Fitz my starter today and Rosen playing four halves (or more) during pre-season. Plain and simple, Rosen needs reps and Fitzpatrick doesn't.
The worst thing the Fins can do is hand the job over to a kid that's not ready....and one who got his *** handed to him last season. We saw that movie with Tannehill and it took this franchise 7 years to realize, "Hey, he really stinks in the pocket." If we would have started Moore for a couple of years and then brought in RT when he was handling the pocket well, maybe he would have developed into our franchise QB. Or maybe he never would have started and we moved on from him in 2015- that would have worked too.
But you can't start a young QB just because you want a 16 game audition. Rosen should start when he deserves to start...and not a moment sooner. This really has nothing to do with Fitzpatrick at all.
Check the Training Camp thread. Rosen stock went up today. People were excited.
This is a process and it needs to run its course.
Let's see if Flores knows what he's doing.
From what I read, Rosen had one really good drive...that's all he played with the 1's that day. Rosen threw 2 TD passes and two more beautiful deep throws, although one of the TD's went right through Howard's hands...it was a bad pass he got lucky on. He admitted afterwards that he never should have thrown it. However, he beat Howard on a 40 yard shot as well that drive (on a day Howard had three picks and should have had the 4th on that lucky TD pass). So that alone is saying something when you're targeting the top CB in the league and winning some battles...
Not trying to praise or knock Rosen here at all though- I'm just saying that it's still early and all the hype means zero. Either Rosen or Fitz still has plenty of camp to take the starting job.
This was Travis' summary:
"...this was the 22-year-old’s best day in a Dolphins jersey. I asked Josh after practice if it’s safe to call him a gamer — given his penchant for playing better when the stakes are at the highest. Rosen danced around the question ultimately telling me, “I don’t want to use labels,” but I’ll do it for him — he’s a gamer.
He was sliding away from a relentless pass rush (more on that in a minute), he was accurate with a variety of throws (drives, deep shots, check downs), and made good decisions throughout. His worst throw was the touchdown to cap off a two-minute drill that saw him complete a 50-yard bomb to Kenny Stills on third-and-forever.
It’s unfair to arbitrarily pinpoint this on Rosen, but he was in there for two delay-of-game penalties."
I agree there's a lot of time and training camp to go. That was actually why I posted this here. It's way too soon to write him off (not saying you're saying that).
Remember the original plan was not to start Tannehill. It was supposed to be Garrard until he had a knee injury. Then Tannehill beat out Moore. Tannehill would have been better served to sit a while and Rosen (despite playing a year) is not even at the level Tannehill was as a rookie.
Unfortunately, I can't load your tweets most of the time, so I didn't see Travis's piece (it's GREAT Travis is down in South Florida though!). I'm definitely not writing him off though because he's one of the cheapest QB's we've ever had....he could ride the bench for two years before starting and it would still be a home-run investment.
My biggest thing is for the team to give him the maximum chance to succeed whether it's starting next week or three seasons from now. We have no idea where he's at from the outside looking in, but I am rooting for him to get a fair chance at developing. One other thing I saw today was that the 2nd team offense had 15+ penalties in the scrimmage (off-sides, holding, etc) and no QB can have success in that kind of environment. Rosen only had one drive with the 1's; everything else was with that struggling 2nd string.
So if we can't get that ironed out....yeah, give me Fitz all day long and save Rosen for a more complete line.