Amen...the Captain goes down with the ship...and this one's 8 leagues down and falling fast. I've personally maintained the "wait and see" stance on this whole issue, and I'm glad I did, because my opinion now is far different than my first reactions. I've been supportive of Philbin because he came across as a professional, organized, even-keeled leader, but that seems to not be the case with all the information now out. You can't play ostrich when the s*** hits the fan...simply can't. You have to take responsibility. NO WAY will I EVER be convinced he didn't know what was going on at the facility. I'm sorry but he has lost me as a fan and supporter. I hate to say it, but he simply doesn't deserve it. Most of this coaching staff should be gone, but it probably won't happen unless they stink it up next season. Wells threw a big security blankie over Philbin.
I agree, however in today's world its rare to find that quality unless something good happened. Today its duck and cover, then deflect as much as possible when things go sour.
Fostered an environment where your team wants to come to you with their problems. It is really basic management 101 stuff.
Its also psychology 101 that a bullied person doesn't tell the people in charge. His parents should have told Philbin.
The bullied person doesn't tell the people in charge when they fear it will make the problem worse. Agreed, but that doesn't change the fact that Martin or anyone else on the team was unwilling to let the head coach know what was happening.
Everyone already knew Philbin wanted Cogs gone before all this and didn't have the power to make it happen. That's not a flaw in philbin. No one else felt bullied. No one else thought Martin was bullied. people thought he may have had a tough time with the joking around occasionally, but that is not bullying nor generally anything serious enough to tell the people in charge about. Martin hid what he felt because that's what people in his position do. Its unfortunate problem, but that doesn't mean the heroes & villains are cut dried. The simple fact of the matter is that when Philbin was told of a problem he took immediate action.
He certainly had power to undercut Incognito's standing within the lockerroom. Not letting players vote for their own leadership council would be a great start. He didn't take corrective action though.
Sorry, but I disagree. I've been on teams with this exact sort of environment. Where there's a few alpha males with no filter who go around bullying other teammates. The guys that aren't bullied stand by and do nothing, etc. I don't blame those players because I was sometimes the guy who didn't stand up and open my mouth. What I do know is that those were the worst teams to be on. The environment was cancerous and counterproductive. The atmosphere during training and practices was very tense, non-relaxed, and most players are unable to focus on the task at hand, which is getting better at your job. On the flip side, I've been on teams where there is true cohesion, constructive criticism, and guys generally looking out for each other and rooting everyone on. Those were the best and those were the ones that played like it and improved infinitely as the season went on. This situation speaks volumes as to why our offensive unit, especially OL, has been so inconsistent for the past 5 years. There was bullying going on, and it created a bad environment. It is the coaches responsibility(Turner, Philbin, Sherman) to have kept Incognito, Jerry, and Pouncey in line and to, as Stringer said, foster an environment that makes the players feel comfortable.
Then you need to explain that to Martin and Martin's family, because they are the ones that hid the info from Philbin. Not letting your players pick their own leaders makes no sense. You are using circular logic. Philbin didn't know there was anything in his locker room to correct because the locker room issues were hid form him. He was told about some problems Martin had and took the ONLY reasonable action he could which was getting him help for the problems he was told of.
If the "good" locker rooms didn't have the bullies and the bad ones did, then it sounds like an issue with the talent acquisition department.
Not really. Those "good" teams just didn't happen to have loud personalities similar to Incognito, Jerry, Pouncey, whereas the others did. It's the main reason why Incognito should've been sent packing long ago, which I agree is a lot on Ireland. But when your stuck with those guys, it's up to the coaches to keep them in line first and foremost. Everyone knew Richie Incognito and his personality. Especially the coaches. It was a failure on them once they knew they were stuck with him to not keep him in line. They allowed him to run around and be his disturbing self.
And WTF is up with keeping Jerry? He's not even good. He should've been cut based on his football skill merit alone. Allowing his horrible play in addition to this other bull****? Inexcusable. Philbin never once benched him to send a message. That's another thing I question?
Absolutely does. When the players elect Incognito to their leadership council, you should realize there is a fundamental problem in the lockerroom. A player he wanted cut because he purportedly molested someone at a team function was elected to the leadership council. This player has a history of destructive behavior. The same player was leading a unit which had a young player that came to Philbin about his mental issues, who's performance was crucial to the success of the team. Why not regularly follow up? Why not instruct players on the team to report back to Philbin if Jon Martin was being put-down or demeaned?
How is it that you admit the good locker rooms didn't really have the loudmouth guys, but this isn't a talent acquisition problem? As far as Cogs goes, your argument is circular. The difference between a guy that goes too far and a guy that doesn't is entirely based on the reactions of the people around that person. I can make a joke about sex joke about Lucky here and its not too far, I can make that same joke in a church and it is obviously too far. If the people surrounding Cogs aren't acting offended, then there's no reason to think he went too far. I just find dubious that so many people blasted Philbin for being no fun and too serious and are now turning around and saying he should have cracked down more on joking around and taken things more serious. we all saw what Philbin thought of the rookie hair dyeing. He thought it was stupid and silly, but being a hard *** about that kind of stuff will make you lose the locker room.
Then you've created resentment and the locker room turns on you. If they viewed Cogs as a leader then the problem was that there weren't other leaders brought in. That puts this firmly in Ireland's wheelhouse. Follow up with what? You keeping arguing from the standpoint that everyone knew there was a problem with Cogs vs his teammates. If you were told a player suffers from depression and that is all your told about them, then you witness them laughing it up and having a good time with his teammates you're likely to think the guy feels better. That's not negligence on Philbin's part.
Joe Philbin realizing something should not entail any type of reaction. As soon as Jon Martin told Philbin of his mental issues, there should have been a systematic plan in place for Martin. Regular meetings and ensuring proper treatment at the bare minimum. If Joe Philbin thought that, then he had a fundamental misunderstanding of depression.
He does not have to be a hard *** to stop certain behaviors. If the only way Philbin could have prevented harassment is by cracking down on Incognito, then Philbin isn't fit to be a head coach.
Huh? Telling the players the guy they want to be a leader can't be a leader could cause him to lose the locker room. That's not a crazy notion. Philbin did set him up with therapy. Its martin's responsibility to keep going. Philbin doesn't own Martin. So what? He's football coach. I don't expect my mechanic to understand lupus.
For the 100th time, he didn't know harassment was happening. He didn't know because no one was acting like they were harassed or coming to him complaining of harassment.
Do you place ANY blame on Philbin? Any? Alot of people seem to share the blame in this...Martin,Cogs,Ireland,Asst.Coaches,Martins parents,other teammates..Fin D, Do you even place a miniscule amount at Philbin's feet? Any at all? just curious
I never suggested he outright tell the players that Incognito can't be on the leadership council. Philbin owns Martin's performance. Martin performed poorly then sabatoged the team So one of the most important players on his football team suffers from it. Its in his best interest to make sure he understands it, so he can maximize Martin's development. Understanding players' mental state is absolutely a big part of coaching.
No, I do not. I blame Martin & his parents for not telling Philbin. I blame Cogs for being a horrible person. I blame Ireland for not bringing in leaders and not getting rid of Cogs & Martin when Philbin wanted him too. Philbin is kind of in charge. Your average boss can hire and fire, Philbin couldn't.
You certainly suggested he stop it from happening. Ireland owns it more, because Philbin decreed Martin was not cut out for this before it all came to a head. If Philbin is responsible that means a good coach could take anyone and make them a quality LT. You do understand coaches aren't magicians right? Yes, you're right, a coach should be an expert on every little thing about every single player. That makes perfect sense. I guess the answer is no, you do not know that coaches aren't magicians.
So you and I have as much responsibility in this mess as The Head Coach of the Miami Dolphins? Find that one a tough one to swallow...While I do not blame Philbin for a majority of the problem, I certainly place some blame on him...have to.
No you really don't "have to". That's just you saying something that sounds good when you say it fast but doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. Is it the POTUS's fault when a hurricane or earthquake happen? Why not, he's in charge? Philbin is neutered. He can't cut Cogs because he doesn't have the power. He can't fine him too bad or the NFLPA gets involved. He can't just bench him because Ireland didn't give him a suitable replacement, (remember all that shifting around of the oline in the offseason?) And he copuldn't even attempt any of that because Martin never let on he had a problem with Cogs on top of all that. Basically, when a person has no way of knowing there's a problem and even if he did he has no real way of stopping it, I find it hard to blame him for the problem persisting. Again, its hard to act as if someone is in charge the way you're making it put to be when they don't have the power to get rid of someone. think about it, Philbin couldn't get ireland to cut Cogs when Cogs was molesting some woman at team charity function you think Ireland would cut Cogs for hurting someone's feelings?
I suggested that he should take that as a sign that there is a problem in the lockerroom. Ireland owns the evaluation. Philbin owns the development. Martin was a bad pick, but the coaching staff didn't develop him properly either. Human resources is a fundamental aspect of management.
Quite a big jump to compare natural disasters to a lockerroom problem when equating amount of individual blame? I am lucky enough to coach.If these problems occurred while I was in charge,whether or not i had knowledge, I would have to assume some blame.As little as I deserve, I WOULD assume some blame. You make it sound as if Philbins only way to fix this problem was having the power to cut someone. I can think of numerous,less evasive ways to have had fixed this. Once again, certainly Philbin is not the main culprit here, but to assume he has no culpability AT ALL is troubling to me. And when I say "have to" I always feel like the people in charge bear the brunt of some blame. That is how it works in my life experiences.
He likely knew there was a problem with a lack of suitable leadership in the locker room. That doesn't mean you just tell the players that Cogs can't be on the council. If you do, then you neuter the whole council to begin with and the players get pissed. Again, the logical conclusion of what you're saying is that ANYONE can be a quality NFL LT. If the GM brings in a guy off the street and the coaches don't turn him into a quality NFL LT is the coach's fault? Is every failed draft pick the coach's fault? Human resources is not the same thing as being able to diagnose and treat depression. That's absurd. If it was the same thing there's no end to it and open surgery is human resources and therefore the responsibility of Philbin too.
I disagree. 1. Philbin didn't bring any of those players in. 2. He wanted them gone before this happened. 3. The problem was purposely hidden from him. 4. And there's likely little he could have done even if he did know, that wouldn't cost him the entire locker room. FTR, I've yet to hear Philbin shirk any responsibility in this. I, as a fan on a message board, am saying I don't hold him responsible.
Again, I never said he remove Incognito from the council. I suggested that he identify the dysfunction in the locker room and mitigate it. For example, make an extra effort monitoring the starting LT that just came to you about his mental issues. I never suggested that the coaches should have turned Martin into a quality LT. I said they had to the duty to make him into the best LT they possibly could. I think had Martin been treated differently, he would have been better than he was. He certainly never would have quit and caused the ****storm he did. That doesn't mean I think they should have turned him into a quality player, just better than they did. He neither had to diagnose nor treat Martin. He had to ensure that Martin got diagnosed. He had to ensure that Martin received treatment. Hell, you have posters on this forum who go much further in helping each other than Joe Philbin did with Jon Martin.
Interesting point, Has Phibin publicly taken any responsibilty for this mess or just responsibility in trying to fix this when all of this came to light. I do not recall. I, also as a fan on a message board, am saying that I put some blame on Philbin, minimal as it is.
Jesus stop with the circular stuff. He probably did. Martin wasn't telling him anything and pretending like he was fine. If that is not what you're suggesting then your point is crap. For all we know Martin played the very best he was capable of playing in this offense. For all you know, him being more comfortable would have made him play worse and with less urgency. Its a violent sport and he's playing a violent position after all. PHILBIN DID GET MARTIN TREATMENT.
WADR, if you're holding him to a tiny minimal amount, then why are taking exception to what I'm saying? Tiny is not that different then none in this case...especially when the bulk of my arguments are with people who think Philbin failed miserably enough to be fired solely for the Martin/Cogs thing.
No, that's silly. I was merely making a point that just because someone is in charge doesn't mean they are responsible for everything that happens on their watch.
LOL I just would like you to admit ,even minimally, that some blame belongs to Philbin. None at all seems unfair. I only take exception to some of the things you say, not all. I think Philbin is a good man, just not so sure he is a leader of men or a very good HC.
I don't buy into the notion that a person in charge should ALWAYS have some blame. I believe everyone that did something wrong deserves blame, their title means little to me. I feel like you're saying Philbin deserves blame because of his title not because of his actions.
