A lot of talk going back and forth as to Jared Odrick- maintain the status quo or bump him inside to full time DT? First of all- anyone know why he's still at 310 and hasn't dropped down to 295 or so? My question is, given the resources spent by Parcells/Ireland to build up the meat and potatoes aspects of the base defense and that Odrick is a 1st round pick and a good player- is it better to draft a base DE in the 1st or 2nd rounds or to compliment him with more firepower in terms of the pass rush by drafting a very good OLB and a pass rushing DE/OLB? Is the pass rushing problem more Odrick or the 3rd down DE and Kevin Burnett? What does that say about Olivier Vernon and Derrick Shelby? I keep coming to the same conclusion- help Odrick as per the pass rush, don't replace him at DE and move him to full time DT. I'm still surprised about something from the recent Barry Jackson article- Odrick is still at 310? I'm getting more and more focused on Sean Porter as an OLB pass rusher and a cover LB for Gronkowski, Hernandez, Keller et al, and another pure pass rusher like Corey Lemonier. I'm not so sure that messing with an excellent DT combo and letting Randy Starks walk makes sense. If we have to save money/allocate more for WR or whatever else, I'd rather let Karlos Dansby and his bloated salary walk- is Dansby really the playmaker that we need on defense? My solution for better or worse is to have Odrick drop some weight, stay at base DE and passing down DT, let Dansby and Burnett walk if possible cap wise and bring in pass rushers and playmakers. It's not a perfect solution, but neither is bailing on Odrick imo. I'd rather accentuate what we have rather than tear it down and start again- take a page from Don Shula and maximize the talent on the roster, make the best use of it. As to Odrick, I would feel differently if he was slow- he isn't, he's very fast and quick for a big man imo- I've seen him in the past and thought "wow"- this dude is extremely quick for a guy of his size. He's just so big for a 4/3 DE- have him drop a few pounds and get some pass rushing help opposite Wake, don't lay the whole problem at Odrick's feet. Just my best guess. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKLz_Ow6KL0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfUlsnuwLGc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJFUIUgpizg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuTwKEGs7uI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM2XdkoiiUI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4w5mrdQKj8
1. You can never have enough good pass rushers, either at DE, OLB hybrid, or both. 2. Because pass rush is so important I think you address it in the 1st round IF the player represents the top talent on the board and offers legitimate pass rush potential. It wouldn't be wise to forego a premium 1st round pass rushing DE out of hopes of finding an OLB hybrid in round 2 or 3 to help satisfy your pass rush needs. Pressuring the QB is just too important to ignore. Then in round 2 you can still add an OLB hybrid if he represents the best talent on the board. If there's no pass rusher to take in round 1, I'd put a little more emphasis on addressing that need with a 2nd round pick, but not to the point of reaching for a player. I'd rather spend a pick to trade up than reach. 3. There's enough Dline snaps to go around even if we use a 1st on DE b/c in a hybrid defense the versatile Odrick will see more than his share of snaps at DE & DT combined. Just b/c Odrick was a 1st round pick there's no need to rationalize having him on the field 100% of the time. 4. We'd gain some flexibility with the addition of a premium 43 DE b/c it'd allow us to put the best & most appropriate 4 guys on the field at Dline for each unique situation, which is important considering this is a situational game. As such, we'd have the opportunity to play a heavier rotation of Odrick & Starks at DT against passing teams, where as now we see Starks & Soliai. Against passing teams, there's a significant difference between Starks & Odrick at DT with Bjoern Werner (or Damontre Moore) at DE than Starks & Soliai at DT with Odrick at DE. 5. It'd provide Wake with a little more breathing room, as I'd rather see him fully fresh on passing downs b/c there are plenty of DEs who can play the run as good or better to where Wake shouldn't need to be needlessly worn down. Against running teams and on run downs, we'd be afforded the hybrid version with a base D of Odrick-Soliai-Starks-Bjoern Werner .... with Wake, Randall, Vernon, and Shelby in rotation..... and hopefully with a SOLB hybrid capable of rushing the passer/blitzing to balance out the llimited Dline pass rush. Against passing teams, we'd have a base 4-3 front of Werner-Odrick-Starks-Wake.... and the SOLB hybrid would hopefully be stout enough to help verse the run on 1st & 2nd down while also allowing us to effectively rush 5 at any given time like Houston does. In nickel, the line would look like: Wake--Werner--Vernon/Shelby/Starks--OLB hybrid (with Odrick rotating in if needed) As you can see, Odrick still gets plenty of snaps, so this perception of "bailing on him" is highly innacurate. He'd only have them taken away where it's appropriate, in passing situations (where he can be upgraded) and as part of the normal rotation. Soliai would have some snaps taken away, but he doesn't need to see the field in nickel, nor see as much of it against passing teams. Wake would have some snaps taken away, but that's ok b/c he doesn't need to see so much of the field on run downs where someone else can do that job and help preserve Cam. A talented 1st round DE would effectively fill in all these situations (either directly or indirectly allowing others to appropriately shuffle around) where these guys don't need to be on the field, in turn maximizing the 4 we have on the field at all times, which we're presently not doing to the fullest of our potential. So essentially we'd only be taking away certain situational snaps in order to improve upon those situations, not weaken them.
Another thing to keep in mind is---- against passing teams you really have to be able to apply pressure with 4 so you can drop as many into coverage as possible. That can pose a challenge with a Base Dline of Odrick--Soliai--Starks--Wake. If you try to make up for that lack of pass rush with an OLB hybrid, then you're taking away from & weakening your coverage. We're much better off having the situational flexibility of moving Odrick between DE & DT.... but we'd need a stud SDE to make that happen.
I don't really see pulling Soilia out of the starting base defense against passing teams- given his talent level and salary he's expected to and imo should be in the base defense against all teams- passing teams still run the ball. Do the Patriots ever yank Vince Wilfork out of the starting lineup against passing teams? I doubt it. The flip side is this- I could see drafting Werner as a 4/3 DE, he's just an outstanding player. Then you just make it work, somehow. But the issue, to me at least, is one of opportunity cost- if you take Werner in the 1st round who are you passing on? What need position is bypassed? Can we afford to do that? Do you pass on a Damontre Moore (OLB) for Werner? BTW What about Dee Milliner, Jonathan Banks or Keenan Allen? I keyed on Werner against UF and my simple conclusion is that he's a player, heck of a defensive end. Fast disruptive, strong, heady, pass rusher, the works. I just wonder who we would have to pass on at a need position to get him. If I had to pick one DE in the draft to replace Odrick (other than maybe D Moore who I look at as an OLB) it would be Werner. It's tough to argue against him, but we would be bypassing talent at other true need positions and my guess is that he probably won't be available anyway. On top of that, DE might be the deepest position in the draft this year. BTW what about Jason Jones in FA next year? Also interesting as per Odrick is that Jones is behind Red Bryant on the depth chart, a 328 lb DE. Jones is a solid pass rusher buried on Seattle's bench, maybe we can pick him up. I have my thoughts on the subject of the Odrick and the pass rush, but as long as we draft playmakers in the first 4 rounds and draft well I won't be complaining. Werner would look mighty good in aqua and orange, but so would several other players at need positions. And as to the post above, I don't think that Odrick is a bust at all. He's not the best pass risher, we need help in that regard, but he's a good solid football player. As a team we need more pass rushers opposite Wake, bottom line.
I think you're interpreting this too literally, as I'm not suggesting making Soliai a permanent fixture on the bench against passing teams. We'd have a strong rotation at DT with Starks, Odrick, and Soliai; the only difference being--- a true pass rushing DE would eat into some of Soliai's & Odrick's current snaps against passing teams, as he should. Jim, do you want Odrick on the field or not b/c it seems like on one hand you're arguing his 1st round status is more important than our dline fixture & rotation as a whole, but on the other hand when I'm suggesting ways to keep him on the field you're arguing against it.
Nah, Odie is a good player, not all pro type, but good. I'd probably take Kendall Langford over him, however that does not make him a bust. Dolphins fan fundom
Yes, I want Odrick in the base defense. Your solution revolves around drafting Werner, a very good player, and yanking Soilia out of our base defense against passing teams and also in some other situations. As you said: "Against running teams and on run downs, we'd be afforded the hybrid version with a base D of Odrick-Soliai-Starks-Bjoern Werner .... with Wake, Randall, Vernon, and Shelby in rotation..... and hopefully with a SOLB hybrid capable of rushing the passer/blitzing to balance out the llimited Dline pass rush. Against passing teams, we'd have a base 4-3 front of Werner-Odrick-Starks-Wake.... and the SOLB hybrid would hopefully be stout enough to help verse the run on 1st & 2nd down while also allowing us to effectively rush 5 at any given time like Houston does. In nickel, the line would look like: Wake--Werner--Vernon/Shelby/Starks--OLB hybrid (with Odrick rotating in if needed)" Two problems- first, he might not be available and more importantly imo is the issue of the opportunity cost of drafting him in the 1st round. We have greater needs, at least in my opinion. I'd rather keep Odrick in there and not fiddle with your Dline changes. My focus is on generating more of a pass rush in ways that don't revolve around replacing Odrick.
I've never seen the Patriots play themselves so it's hard to say what they'd do against Brady. So when playing NE you'd be more concerned with stopping the run than pressuring Brady? What are you going to do on 1st & 2nd down when Brady decides to throw and you have Odrick at DE & Soliai at DT? I don't see the Giants having issues with focusing attention on a more pressuring front 4 verse Brady rather than going big to stop the run, but perhaps we see things differently. Again, where does the 1st & 2nd down pressure come from against Tommy boy? Jones isn't buried on their bench. He's a nickel defensive tackle pass rusher. That's his best position b/c he's neither a 43 or 34 DE, and he's not big enough to be a base 43 DT.
So your preference is to have Odrick rather than a better pressuring DE like Werner at SDE against passing teams just in case they run on 1st & 2nd down? To me it makes more sense to have a better balanced Dline vs passing teams rather than focusing on smothering the run at the expense of QB pressure.
Jones is a backup DE for Seattle who gets some DT playing time in passing downs, and at 6-5 276 he's a great size for 4/3 DE, he just can't beat out Red Bryant, a run stuffing DE who is almost 330 lbs and has zero sacks on a very good defense. Others bring the pass rush, including situational pass rusher and first round draft pick Burce Irvin. We could use a player like Irvin on this team. http://www.seahawks.com/team/depth-chart.html http://www.nfl.com/player/jasonjones/2507473/profile As to the Patriots, 1st and 2nd down pressure will come from Cam Wake and whoever else can contribute. That's a pretty good reason for us to draft some pass rushing help, imo OLBs and situational pass rushers first and foremost. And the Patriots are smart and have a RB who is already on the verge of cracking the 1,000 yard rushing mark. You can't just discount the rushing aspect with New England or any other team, and what Odrick brings to the table in that regard. Soliai will start in the base D, as he should. Hopefully Burnett and Misi can help with the pass rush this week, but I doubt it. BTW Odrick got a sack last week- I don't think that the LBs got any and I think that he has more sacks than any Miami LB this year- maybe they should start carrying their weight as per the pass rush.
Jared Odrick and the Goblet of Pass Rushing Fire? Jared Odrick and the Order of the Sack? Jared Odrick and the Half Blood Sack Machine? Maybe it will be Bjoern Werner and The Chamber of Sacks. You never know. Maybe Sean Porter and The Sorcerer's Sack of Stone.
WADR, it doesn't matter what the Seahawks depth chart says, as he's not a DE. He's an interior nickel pass rusher. Tennessee made the mistake of moving him to DE last year I believe, and he wasn't the same player. Yes, he can obviously play the position and has the size for it, but his impact is penetrating from the DT position. He's below average at DE. That sounds a little vague and didn't really answer my question. Who are these "other guys" who can contribute to pressuring Brady on 1st & 2nd down that you speak of? If you're looking at the pressure from coming from OLB on 1st & 2nd down then you're removing a player from coverage in order to make up for the lack of front 4 pressure, essentially using 5 guys to do the job of 4. Question: Do you think the Giants have had trouble stopping NE's offense by focusing more on a pressuring front 4 than a run stuffing one? clearly more important than the 5000 yards & 35 TDs Brady averages the past 2 years. lol. So again, you'd rather focus on shutting down the Pats run game at the expense of the pass? The last I checked, NE hasn't had much difficulty in the past beating us even without a running game, so what makes you think it'll be any different if we take away their run? Who said I'm discounting the rushing aspect with NE and other teams when I've obviously noted a front 4 rotation capable of shutting down running teams? WADR, do you understand the concept of a rotation at Dline and situational aspect of the game where Soliai would obviously be on the field during likely run downs? Again, I haven't said anything about entirely removing Soliai from the game verse passing teams. Furthermore, where do you get this notion that we'd be a horrible run defense with Starks & Odrick at DT and with Werner at SDE? There are plenty of teams who aren't a liability verse the run with a similar front 4. Wrong. It sounds like you're the one disregarding what Odrick brings to the table by implying he's an utter liability vs the run, insinuating our front 4 would be chopped liver against NE & Ridley with Odrick at DT instead of Soliai. Make up your mind, either he's decent against the run or he isn't. Of course Soliai will start in base D this weekend.
It's a challenge to try to figure out how someone could actually read what I've written about Odrick and come to the conclusion that I'm "implying he's an utter liability vs the run". That's a head scratcher.
No it's not a head scratcher. I mentioned having Odrick at DT against passing teams like NE [if we have a guy like Werner to play SDE], but you're essentially saying that move would make our dline a liability verse the run. You're insinuating our Dline wouldn't be able to stop the run with Odrick at DT, therefore by default insinuating Odrick, himself, would be a liability verse the run. This isn't Deductive Reasoning 401. It's a simple A+B=C If you believe Odrick is good against the run then you shouldn't have a problem [like you currently do] with him spending more time at DT against passing teams so that we can have a DE on the field better capable of pressuring the QB while still possessing some run stopping ability.
Yet another head scratcher. Every time you write something starting with "you're essentially saying", "You're insinuating" or anything resembling "So what you're saying is"- well, you're wrong. Maybe you'd be better off just trying to comprehend what I am actually saying, which is pretty straight forward, as opposed to spinning my words into something that suits you better. Just a thought. On top of that you're whiffing, again, on the basic thesis that Odrick is a good football player and a good run defender who is not an ideal 4/3 DE pass rusher. And as such, getting a guy like Werner at DE would be fine, except for the opportunity cost of drafting more of a need player in the 1st round. And therefore my preference would be to focus on pass rushing OLBs and pure pass rushing DEs in the draft as opposed to spending a high pick on a base DE who is a better pass rusher than Odrick, but probably not as good of a run defender. That's my opinion, you have your opinion, and maybe we can leave it at that. Also, if Randy Starks walks in FA then I would be fine with Odrick moving to DT, and then drafting Werner in the 1st rd would make a lot more sense to me. But I'd rather keep Starks and keep Odrick at base DE, draft a top CB or OLB/pass rusher. Or maybe Keenan Allen, not sure yet. Depends on FA and I'm still wondering about Da'Rick Rogers, imo he might be worth the gamble 2nd or 3rd round.
I'm not spinning anything. You criticized the notion of having Odrick playing DT against passing teams b/c you felt it weakens us against the run [despite what it does to help against the pass]. How else is someone to interpret that other than you're contradicting the heck out of yourself by saying on one hand that you like Odrick verse the run but on the other hand think we're not good enough verse the run with Odrick at DT? It's pretty straight forward stuff. It's not about me suiting myself, it's about you contradicting yourself and not making any sense. As far as the rest of your post, I guess it boils down to the difference in emphasis you and I place on pass rushers and having an improved pass rush on 1st & 2nd down considering this is a passing league. When you only have 1 quality pass rusher and enough snaps to go around, it's not a luxury pick to spend a 1st rounder on another pass rushing DE, especially when the one you have is getting up there in age and considering it can take a few years for a drafted one to reach full time impact level. That's called being proactive, which is also called being smart. What happens if Wake gets hurt? We'd be screwed! The greatest strength of our team, Dline, would quickly become a potential weakness. When you have a strength, especially if it's Dline, there's absolutely nothing wrong with spending a 1st rounder to ensure that strength remains a strength for years to come. It's foolish to take that kind of opportunity for granted. BTW, the draft is mostly for building for the future, not fixing current needs; otherwise you end up reaching for players and keep a team on a steady path toward mediocrity.
I've "criticized the notion of having Odrick playing DT against passing teams" because I "felt it weakens us against the run" ? Where do you get this stuff? Odrick is a very good player to bump inside to DT on passing downs, I never said otherwise. Yet another head scratching, erroneous conclusion from you. Par for the course. To wit, from you earlier: "You're insinuating our Dline wouldn't be able to stop the run with Odrick at DT, therefore by default insinuating Odrick, himself, would be a liability verse the run. This isn't Deductive Reasoning 401. It's a simple A+B=C" Huh? And this gem: "It sounds like you're the one disregarding what Odrick brings to the table by implying he's an utter liability vs the run, insinuating our front 4 would be chopped liver against NE & Ridley with Odrick at DT instead of Soliai. Make up your mind, either he's decent against the run or he isn't." Again, I have to ask myself- where do you get this stuff from? What I did say is that Soliai, who is a beast against the run, is of value against the Patriots, who run the ball quite effectively as evidenced by Stevan Ridley's success. And Soliai will, of course, start for us in our base defense. Part of your "so what your saying" disease is that you interpret this as me saying that Odrick is a liability against the run- that's nonsense. He was a very good 3/4 DE against the run, he's an excellent 4/3 DE against the run, and he's a good 4/3 DT against the run on passing downs. Your misguided interpretations of what I'm saying, as compared to what I actually did say, are just plain wrong. As to the draft- imo it's for future needs and current needs. If we can take care of more immediate needs with value picks, all the better. And this draft has quality 1st round DBs and pass rushers (outside of base DEs) who may be there, and would provide value. I haven't made my mind up on Keenan Allen yet- he's a player, I do like him. It depends on what we do in FA as well. There's no sense in having a discussion with someone who draws erroneous conclusions from my comments and misrepresents what I've said, as you have repeatedly. Enjoy the game today.
So what you're saying is, regardless of the interpretation of some of your posts, everything revolves more around your infatuation with keeping Odrick at DE and us doing nothing to help the pass rush on 1st & 2nd down against passing teams should they so decide to pass. Ok, I got it. If you stop contradicting yourself and others won't have to draw conclusions to fill in the blanks.
Hey Jim, you happen to be noticing where Odrick is often lining up on 1st & 2nd down verse Brady? Yeah, DT ..... leaving us with Misi rushing from DE rather than a legitimate pass rushing DE. I accept your apology. lol
