I'm not saying I want to draft Rhodes, or think he's anything; I'm simply asking, does he fit our system? Every mock I've looked at not on ThePHINS (which unanimously select Tavon Austin ) has had Xavier Rhodes mocked to us. It's not just Bleacher Report. We're talking Walterfootball, CBS, NFL, you name it. If you'd ask one of those airheads (or maybe I'm the airhead!), it seems as if it's the surest pick after Joeckel. Now, things may have changed post-Grimes signing, but I'm wondering if it was a possibility to begin with. Everything I've seen has led me to believe two things: 1) Xavier Rhodes excels primarily in man/press coverage 2) Coyle excels primarily with zone coverage schemes Looking at Coyles track record, he got rid of Vontae and let Smith walk, neither of whom really excelled in Zone. He also went out of his way to bring in Marshall, Patterson, and Grimes--who do. Going further back, when he was the DB coach in Cincinatti, he had Leon Hall and Johnathan Joseph. ...yet we're most likely to take a physical man guy that's 2-3 inches taller and 25 pounds heavier than the guys that Coyle has wanted as DBs? Am I interpreting this all wrong (a VERY real possibility ) or does this just not make sense???
I don't think it's so much that Coyle wants Tampa 2 slow players its just he likes to have versatile players that can get picks and average size is not a problem. Rhodes is ok in zone.
What I'm trying to get my arms wrapped around is why anyone believes Xavier Rhodes has schematic limitations. I understand the simple observation that he played a lot of press man at Florida State but that had nothing to do with limitations and everything to do with how good he is. If you wanted to make an argument that he's the best corner in the Draft period, I might not quite agree with it but I wouldn't strongly disagree, either. It's a lot like Bjoern Werner vs. Tank Carradine that way.
I don't think the Bengals played exclusively zone either. The draft guys have had Miami's pick correctly before, Rhodes wouldn't surprise me.
Hell, the last two Drafts running the most obvious pick has been the correct one. This front office is not known for creativity.
And for what it's worth, I'm not sure how much zone vs man coverage we play. Does anyone have a stat, or did anyone watch the games and chart it?
They've traded down once in five years. They usually just sit there and pick. I don't see any reason why they can't run a man scheme with the guys they'd have. All of them can play man. Have they met Rhodes?
Oh hey guys do you need a corner? Lockdown CB? Florida Seminole, really talented right at your pick. It's kinda obvious what the pick is if you look at it that way. The value marries the need.
Perhaps I should've been a little more specific... I wasn't necessarily trying to get this discussion going, but it's one of the things that had been going through my mind; is Rhodes better for us than Trufant would be at 12? Trufant seems to closer resemble the players that Coyle has succeeded with at the corner position IMO, based on size and skillset.
More than Rhodes? Not necessarily. The corner that in my opinion MOST resembles what he had success with in Cincinnati is probably Hayden.
While I do recall him saying that, what we've been doing indicates otherwise (or, at least, is coincidentally contradictory). We've had two corners over 5'11 or 200 lbs since Philbin and the new staff came in: Sean Smith, who presumably wasn't even formally offered a contract to come back, and Nolan Carroll, who is very much on the roster bubble.
The thing with Rhodes is that though there's no reason he couldn't play zone there's no track record of him doing it, having played in what was basically a press man system throughout college. If they were to take him at 12 they'd have to be convinced he could play in a new system, which could take him time to adjust to. If they want a prospect who is a proven zone corner they could go with Trufant, however i don't think his gifts merit him being picked 12 whereas you could make a very good case Rhodes's do. I wouldn't be upset if we picked Rhodes at 12, but i think with the depth of the corner class you can pick up solid players later in the draft rather than taking the chance on someone who could be a stud.
The only thing they've done to indicate otherwise is sign Brent Grimes, and he's a pro bowler. Dimitri Patterson is 6'0". Richard Marshall is 5'11" and was big and physical enough that he was playing safety for the Cardinals.
Dimitri Patterson is not 6'0. Also, Sean Smith and Vontae were both better in man than zone. Both gone. Yes, Marshall played S in AZ, but that's because Kerry Rhodes got hurt, and he was the only one on the roster capable of doing it.
What I do find interesting to bring up though in talking about Kevin Coyle's experiences in Cincinnati and what he really needs...is the TALENT question. For a while around here you'd swear people were madlibbing arguments from 2012 surrounding the wide receiver position onto 2013 about the corner position. "We play zone. You don't need expensive (my note: talented) corners for that." It was like the old Philbin doesn't need #1 wide receivers argument...which has now been rendered total horse ****. But look back in Cincinnati at what Kevin Coyle had. Johnathan Joseph...1st round. Leon Hall...1st round. Adam "Pacman" Jones...1st round. Hell even this past year...look what they did even after Coyle leaves. They took Dre Kirkpatrick in the 1st round and signed former #5 overall pick Terrance Newman. They also have Jason Allen, by the way. This reminds me of the old weak-armed QB for the West Coast Offense argument. Every year every weak-armed QB that comes out, every analyst says "He could be good in a west coact offense". And every year the guys running the West Coast Offenses around the NFL take guys that have ****ing dynamite sticks surgically implanted in their shoulders and ankles. Pat Devlin perfect for a West Coast Offense you say? Oh maybe he'll go to San Francisco. COLIN KAEPERNICK'D! John Beck perfect for Mike Shanahan's West Coast Offense you say? ROBERT GRIFFIN'D! Every year it keeps going on and on. So Cincy runs pretty much what we want to run, and what do you get? 1st round corner after 1st round corner after 1st round corner. 1st rounder Leon Hall. 1st rounder Johnathan Joseph. 1st rounder Pacman Jones. 1st rounder Terrance Newman. 1st rounder Dre Kirkpatrick. 1st rounder Jason freaking Allen. Hell, they even had Jamar Fletcher back in 2008, lol.
Yeah, actually he is. 6000 on the dot. http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members/ratings/profile.php?pyid=54685 You act like he's at least 2 inches shy of that. He's listed by the NFL as 5'11" and NFL Draft Scout (who usually gets it right to within an eighth of an inch) says 6000. What is he, at best maybe half an inch shy? Three quarters of an inch? Yet "Dimitri Patterson is NOT 6'0"." What does that have to do with "I like big corners"? Eherm, Rashad Johnson (who just signed a 3 year contract) would like to have a word with you.
If we plan on playing predominately zone I don't think we take a CB in the 1st. You have to be much more skilled to play man press. I would be very content with a Lane Johnson at 12, it's not sexy but its likely to be BPA and a need. Would love Tavon Austin, or Ansah if he is there.
Yet in Cincinnati they took Leon Hall in the 1st round, Johnathan Joseph in the 1st round, Dre Kirkpatrick in the 1st round, and took rolls of the dice on former 1st rounders like Pacman Jones, Terrance Newman, Jason Allen and even Jamar Fletcher.
The Dolphins? Maybe. Don't know. If they trade up then Dee Milliner could be in play. If people are really stuck on this zone thing then just take D.J. Hayden at 42 and be done with it. I think Xavier Rhodes may end up the better player though.
Ehhh, not sure you can count former 1st rounders...how the Bengals acquired them is what matters. Obviously Kirkpatrick was picked after Coyle left, he was the DB coach with Hall and Joseph...I can't speak on the defensive scheme they ran in Cinncy prior to 2010. I was merely suggesting you can find better value later if your goal is to acquire a zone CB.
Absolutely you count former 1st round picks. Especially a guy like Pacman Jones who was a persona non grata at the time that the Bengals rolled the dice on him. Which has nothing to do with anything. They didn't change anything about the scheme when Coyle left. The scheme was still the scheme and the priorities were still the priorities. And I was merely suggesting that the Cincinnati Bengals who run the same scheme with players in the secondary playing the same way feel very differently.
I think you're confusing what I'm saying, I simply stated it was my opinion you could find value in CB's in rounds 2-3 if you plan on being a zone defense. I would still be very ok with a trade up for a unique player like Milner. Would I curse Jeff through my screen if we drafted a non Millner CB in the 1st? Maybe, a lot of variables would factor into that. But I stand by my comment that there is good value in zone defenders after the 1st.
They ran a mixed scheme but Cinncy and Miami share a philosophy of using the talent available in the best manner possible. They can run a man scheme if they want.
1) Dimitri Patterson's height...I'll give you the source followed by the height he's listed at by them, in order of site appearance by a Google search of Dimitri Patterson. Wikipedia: 5'10 ESPN: 5'10 Yahoo Sports: 5'10 SB Nation: 5'10 Miami Herald: 5'11 Rotoworld: 5'10 CBS Sports: 5'10 Ohio.com: 5'10 ProFootball Reference: 5'11 ClevelandBrowns.com: 5'10 AOL Sporting News: 5'10 NFL.com: 5'10 Cle.Scout.com: 5'10 Fox Sports: 5'10 MiamiDolphins.com: 5'10 ...and that's 3 pages of results. There were a couple of duplicates and news stories that omitted his height, but nothing said he was 6 feet, and most of them said he was the requisite "2 inches shorter" that would be required for me to make a bold statement. I was able to uncover the article you saw by typing "nfldraftscout Dimitri Patterson". I found 13 sources on the first three pages claiming him to be 5'10, two for 5'11, and yours that could not be found. I think it's more likely that the league and the teams he has played for have measured him properly than nfldraftscout, considering that that article is 8 years old, he played corner in college (not fs), and that he entered the NFL from Tuskegee, not SEMO. You could also neglect my, and everyone else's word, and watch one of the last two games 2) If he liked big corners, he's had the opportunities to keep them and sign them. He hasn't. Furthermore, what Ireland says means little under this regime. Why don't you name a few "big corners" that have had success under Coyle in the NFL? 3) The Rashad Johnson that is making $800,000 in the first year of his new contract? The one that Rotoworld dubbed as a "capable third safety"? 134 tackles, 0 sacks, 3 interceptions, 1 ff, 1 pd 94 tackles, 1 sack, 4 interceptions, 2 ff, 13 pd One of those lines is what Rashad did in 57 career games, and one is what Reshad did last year
I really have nothing to add other than that a nice stat line, and if he repeats that he will be my favorite current Dolphin. He's one the reasons I get excited for the draft every year.
No way, imo, any of the three OTs make it past 7. Lance Johnson will go 7 to AZ, imo. Now that they have Palmer, I think they will not come out of round 1 without one of the OTs. I just don't like going CB at #12 (unless they really think he is the 2nd coming of Revis). Otherwise, why not trade down with STL and let them go for the WR they want, if they want one of those CBs? I can understand going for RT at #8 and not taking chances. Though Wilson as it turns out was a great value in round 3; they had RT rated up there and weren't going for Wilson. There weren't 2 or 3 other QBs hanging out in the Green Room. I know they will have one of the CBs rated over the other. But, I'd say either trade down or go a different direction. Who knows, maybe Rhodes will radical change their D.
The thing about the most obvious pick the past two years is that it has also been the guy the team has clearly shown the most interest in. They haven't drafted players who they talk to at the combine and then nothing else high. The obvious pick here is Tavon Austin, but we are ignoring that because we have this idea that Jeff Ireland is still acquiring players based on the Parcells philosophy.
Usually NFL Draft Scout is really good for accurate heights because they take the combine or Pro Day heights for the players and post one of them. In the case of Patterson though, he never went to the combine, and there is no indication his school had a Pro Day. This height could have been as likely gotten from his school's bio page as anything else, and the various schools are notorious for being generous when it comes to the heights they post of their players.
Unless we are talking Deon Sanders (or at safety a Reed or Polamalu), I'm not big on CB as a value pick in round 1. A lot of teams perform well and win SBs or go to the playoffs consistently with very good defenses, with CBs taken later on. If the Dolphins were one player away (like the 49ers and their DBs - if they have two slightly better DBs, they win the SB - but they have a great core team otherwise), and picking in the late 20's then, I could sign off on a CB. Even Vontae and Sean Smith - who are viewed in the league as good picks - still were burned a lot and were expendable to most. They were not "shut down" corners and the D still suffered. If our front 7 were dominant, I think the DBs we have right now (though flawed to be sure) could be winners. But, is Rhodes really that dominant? And is he that much better, in the Dolphins D, than what they could garner in round 2-3?
If we were one corner away, I would suggest moving up for Milliner, but still, he's just the best of what we're dealing with this year. I'm not sure any of these guys will be better than Claiborne or Gilmore, for example. I think a guy like Darius Slay would be a better value with our 2nd or 3rd 2nd rounder, and would also fit the profile of an average Coyle corner. Honestly, my football IQ is relatively low, and there are some borderline professionals (CK) in here disagreeing with me to an extent, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt...that's what I think, though.
