Is Lamar Miller the KEY to the playoffs for us this year?

P

"Fin4Ever wrote:

I feel like Miller is not getting the respect he deserves.. I am always hearing how we need to develop our players and keep home grown talent at home. Like Tannehill, Miller has become better each season...He worked a lot on his pass receiving skills during the off season as he wants to grow into a bigger role and improve his receiving numbers...He has also added additional weight by adding muscle as he wants more carries. I am looking forward as well to Damien Williams second year with us as well as to see how quickly Ajayi learns the playbook and contribute. Imho, I don't think Miami drafted Ajayi to be a bell cow RB but to bring him in to split the load with Miller and some with Williams so that they all remain fresh for the demanding season ahead. I am looking forward to Miller besting himself this year and being an very important piece of our offensive puzzle. I also hope that Miami is smart and renegotiated his deal and signs him to an extension this year.:yes:

. Those are the most amazing stats I've read all offseason...I don't know how he achieved that average with that line, either he's deceptively very good or Lazor is a running game genius.

I agree..they are a good combination

I would absolutely love to see an active, aggressive running game. Love ground and pound football. The big question mark on this for me is the coaching. There were questionable calls last year and even when we had games where the run was working it was dropped like a properly inflated football in the hands of Tom Brady.

I'm hoping Lazor sees it and 'runs' with it this year. Hey, I'm hoping Philbin sees it and runs with it. We already have the capacity for a varied offense which spreads the field. If we can implement a balanced attack that threatens not only passes all over the place but an aggressive run game and Tannehill also takes that leadership step then we'll really have something, if the coaches will let it run.

"djphinfan wrote:

P. Those are the most amazing stats I've read all offseason...I don't know how he achieved that average with that line, either he's deceptively very good or Lazor is a running game genius.

I think Lamar Miller is deceptively good. He's a lot like Russell Wilson. The lack of volume causes some people to assume he's less than. Miller topped 1,000 yards w/only two 100 yard rushing games. That means Miller was nothing short of consistent. That 5.1 YPC represents the type of player he was. He was a grinder, producing positive yards at every turn.

As a runner, he only lacks power. He doesn't break a ton of tackles. If he's gained some muscle w/o losing quickness and speed, as we've heard this off-season, that can only make him more dangerous. The vision, instincts, speed, and running technique are already in place.

Here's some other fun stats from Miller.

5.8 yards per carry vs. base defensive package
5.2 yards per carry vs. Nickle package
1st Half: 101 rushes for 500 yards (5.0 ypc)
2nd Half: 115 rushes for 599 yards (5.2 ypc)

How's that for consistency?

vs. AFC EAST: 85 rushes, 472 yards, 5.6 YPC, 2 TD
vs. Buffalo: 26 rushes, 132 yards, 0 TD
vs. NYJ: 32 rushes, 234 yards, 7.3ypc, 2 TD
Vs. NE: 27 rushes, 106, 3.9 ypc 0 TD

Pretty good vs. stout defenses too..

https://vine.co/v/eeVOKgX2mEZ
https://vine.co/v/ee9lFaE0x0j

Some cool videos.

"LBsFinest wrote:

As it stands right now we didn't do enough in the offseason to improve the running game.

As it stands, we didn't do enough to improve LDE either...but that position's kinda covered...just like RB with Miller.

I think Jay and Damien really push Miller to step up his game even more. I think Jay has a great year for the Dolphins.

"Clark Kent wrote:

I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of Lamar Miller in 2014.

Miami's run blocking in 2014 wasn't very good. According to PFF, Miami's cumulative run blocking grade was -37.5. Only Albert and Samson Satele graded positive. Albert missed half the season... Take it for what it's worth. Despite poor blocking, Lamar Miller managed to still run for 1100 yards and 5.1 yards per carry. Why? He was consistently able to grind out positive yards, even with a minimum of running room. Over half of his carries went 4.0 yards or more. Led the NFL. And he converted 80% of 3 and 1's and 70% of 3rd and 3's. In fact, Miller was more productive than Jamal Charles, both of whom had similar attempts, ypc, catches, receiving yards, etc... And that's the 2014 Lamar Miller. He's closer 225lbs than his 215lbs last season and supposedly hasn't lost his speed or quickness, giving him extra power in his running attack. Don't confuse volume w/production ability (Russell Wilson, anyone?).

You're not giving him his due. Lamar Miller is a very good rusher. He's not a complete back, however. As a receiver, he wasn't very good. Dropped too many passes. As a blocker, he improved from 2013. If Lamar Miller has added power to his running style, and improved as a receiver and blocker, there's no reason he can't or shouldn't be the feature back in 2015. His got vision, instincts, and natural running ability.

From a pure viewing and feel standpoint, have you ever seen Lamar Miller take over and dictate a game where the defense knows what's coming and can't stop it? I have not seen him do that, save for maybe a glimpse against Baltimore. See Knowshon week 1 for what a legit lead back should be able to do on a consistent basis, where the offense can lean on him heavily throughout a game.

"Limbo wrote:

From a pure viewing and feel standpoint, have you ever seen Lamar Miller take over and dictate a game where the defense knows what's coming and can't stop it? I have not seen him do that, save for maybe a glimpse against Baltimore. See Knowshon week 1 for what a legit lead back should be able to do on a consistent basis, where the offense can lean on him heavily throughout a game.

No, I've never seen Lamar Miller take over a game and dominate a team the way Knowshon did in week 1 against NE. I've also never seen him have the opportunity. But what exactly is that suppose to mean? He averaged over 4 yards per carry in 12/16 games (3.79, 2.5, 2.94, 3.39). Half of his carries went for 4 yards or more, most in the NFL. That's fantastic consistency. Especially behind one of the worst group of run blockers in the NFL. Lamar plays in a passing offense, with a two back system. Lamar's productivity was extremely good, limited by volume. There have been plenty of games where Miami stopped rushing the ball in favor of passing, when Lamar was having a lot of success. It was the biggest criticism of Bill Lazor in 2014.

Lamar Miller was pound for pound one of the better RB's of 2014. If he had gotten the 24 carries per game that Knowshon had in week 1 against NE, he would of turned in similar performances. The lack of volume isn't a Lamar Miller problem, it's a Bill Lazor problem.

"Clark Kent wrote:

No, I've never seen Lamar Miller take over a game and dominate a team the way Knowshon did in week 1 against NE. I've also never seen him have the opportunity. But what exactly is that suppose to mean? He averaged over 4 yards per carry in 12/16 games (3.79, 2.5, 2.94, 3.39). Half of his carries went for 4 yards or more, most in the NFL. That's fantastic consistency. Especially behind one of the worst group of run blockers in the NFL. Lamar plays in a passing offense, with a two back system. Lamar's productivity was extremely good, limited by volume. There have been plenty of games where Miami stopped rushing the ball in favor of passing, when Lamar was having a lot of success. It was the biggest criticism of Bill Lazor in 2014.

Lamar Miller was pound for pound one of the better RB's of 2014. If he had gotten the 24 carries per game that Knowshon had in week 1 against NE, he would of turned in similar performances. The lack of volume isn't a Lamar Miller problem, it's a Bill Lazor problem.

I don't agree. Generally backs that can take over games get stronger in carries 11-20. That wasn't the case with Miller.

Attempts Att Yds Avg Lng TD 1st
Attempts 1-Through-10 154 810 5.3 33 4 46
Attempts 11-Through-20 62 289 4.7 97 4 11

http://www.nfl.com/player/lamarmiller/2533034/situationalstats

And that average for carries 11-20 was greatly skewed by the last game of the season (primarily one run). Going into the last game of the season Miller was averaging 2.49 per carry on carries 11-20. I doubt that average had anybody clamoring for Miller to get more 11-20 carries.

So sure, maybe Miller will be able to take over games due to gaining muscle this off-season, but he wasn't capable of that last year. That was a Miller limitation not a Lazer problem.

"rafael wrote:

I don't agree. Generally backs that can take over games get stronger in carries 11-20. That wasn't the case with Miller.

Attempts Att Yds Avg Lng TD 1st
Attempts 1-Through-10 154 810 5.3 33 4 46
Attempts 11-Through-20 62 289 4.7 97 4 11

http://www.nfl.com/player/lamarmiller/2533034/situationalstats

And that average for carries 11-20 was greatly skewed by the last game of the season (primarily one run). Going into the last game of the season Miller was averaging 2.49 per carry on carries 11-20. I doubt that average had anybody clamoring for Miller to get more 11-20 carries.

So sure, maybe Miller will be able to take over games due to gaining muscle this off-season, but he wasn't capable of that last year. That was a Miller limitation not a Lazer problem.

CK debunked this vs. JDang who used the same argument.

CKparrothead wrote:

More often than not this is a statistical anomaly made possible by small sample sizes.

I mean, we're not even talking about a pronounced difference in 2014. From 5.3 yards per carry to 4.7 yards per carry is nothing. I mean you said it yourself, it wasn't the case in 2013. If you're going to attach statistical significance to such weak trends you'd have looked at the 2013 data and swore that Lamar Miller is one of those backs that gets stronger the more times he touches the ball (which is kind of a myth IMO). And in fact I do remember people saying that as they shouted for him to get more carries. Suddenly he's a guy that tails off with more carries?

Statistical hocum due to small sample sizes, IMO.

Absolutely true... Lamar Miller only had 13 carries per game (average). His sample size from the first 10 carries is legitimately more than 3x larger than that of his the 11-20 sample size in 2014. Even a weak 2.49 yards per carry (prior to the final game) isn't relevant data.

Lamar Miller in 2013
Carries 1-10: 134 attempts, 524 yards, 3.9ypc, long of 49.
Carries 11-20: 41 attempts, 182 yards, 4.4 ypc, long of 17.

So, in 2013, Lamar Miller got stronger with more carries. Suddenly in 2014, he got weaker as the game went along?

Let's consider the fact he converted 82% of 3rd and 1's. Converted 70% of 3rd and 3's. Is that a weak rusher? Every single down, Lamar has a 4.2 ypc average or better.

And breaking Lamar down by quarter.

1st Quarter: 54 attempts, 254 yards, 4.7 ypc
2nd Quarter: 47 attempts, 246 yards, 5.2 ypc
3rd Quarter: 63, attempts, 414 yards, 6.6 ypc (minus the 97 yard run, 5.1 ypc).
4th Quarter: 52 attempts, 185 yards, 3.6 ypc

Lamar doesn't get weaker as the game goes on. The data used to suggest Miller gets weaker from carries 11-20 isn't relevant because the sample size is too small. And it can easily be explained away with a number of scenario's, including the fact that runs 11-20 likely take place in the 4th quarter, when you're trying to kill the clock and the defense knows you're going to run (which would explain the 4th quarter ypc drop off too). It's the exact argument we used for Joe Flacco. His 2012 sample size is too small to take it seriously as evidence that he's some kind of GOAT playoff performer. This is no different.

"PhinFan1968 wrote:

As it stands, we didn't do enough to improve LDE either...but that position's kinda covered...just like RB with Miller.

Miller never reached 20 carries. What makes us think the position is covered, if the coaches won't run him past 20.

Moreno carried it 24 times in his first game here.

"Clark Kent wrote:

CK debunked this vs. JDang who used the same argument.

Absolutely true... Lamar Miller only had 13 carries per game (average). His sample size from the first 10 carries is legitimately more than 3x larger than that of his the 11-20 sample size in 2014. Even a weak 2.49 yards per carry (prior to the final game) isn't relevant data.

Lamar Miller in 2013
Carries 1-10: 134 attempts, 524 yards, 3.9ypc, long of 49.
Carries 11-20: 41 attempts, 182 yards, 4.4 ypc, long of 17.

So, in 2013, Lamar Miller got stronger with more carries. Suddenly in 2014, he got weaker as the game went along?

Let's consider the fact he converted 82% of 3rd and 1's. Converted 70% of 3rd and 3's. Is that a weak rusher? Every single down, Lamar has a 4.2 ypc average or better.

And breaking Lamar down by quarter.

1st Quarter: 54 attempts, 254 yards, 4.7 ypc
2nd Quarter: 47 attempts, 246 yards, 5.2 ypc
3rd Quarter: 63, attempts, 414 yards, 6.6 ypc (minus the 97 yard run, 5.1 ypc).
4th Quarter: 52 attempts, 185 yards, 3.6 ypc

Lamar doesn't get weaker as the game goes on. The data used to suggest Miller gets weaker from carries 11-20 isn't relevant because the sample size is too small. And it can easily be explained away with a number of scenario's, including the fact that runs 11-20 likely take place in the 4th quarter, when you're trying to kill the clock and the defense knows you're going to run (which would explain the 4th quarter ypc drop off too). It's the exact argument we used for Joe Flacco. His 2012 sample size is too small to take it seriously as evidence that he's some kind of GOAT playoff performer. This is no different.

That doesn't debunk it. His carries from 11-20 where far less efficient. That is a fact. You may decide to ascribe signifigance to an explanation that excuses it, but the fact remains. IMO if you have a player whom you admit doesn't break many tackles then he's not likely to be the guy that's effective at controlling a game or running late when the opponent knows you're going to run. That's basically what you want from your RB late in the game and he hasn't shown the ability to do that thus far.

"Clark Kent wrote:

CK debunked this vs. JDang who used the same argument.

Absolutely true... Lamar Miller only had 13 carries per game (average). His sample size from the first 10 carries is legitimately more than 3x larger than that of his the 11-20 sample size in 2014. Even a weak 2.49 yards per carry (prior to the final game) isn't relevant data.

Lamar Miller in 2013
Carries 1-10: 134 attempts, 524 yards, 3.9ypc, long of 49.
Carries 11-20: 41 attempts, 182 yards, 4.4 ypc, long of 17.

So, in 2013, Lamar Miller got stronger with more carries. Suddenly in 2014, he got weaker as the game went along?

Let's consider the fact he converted 82% of 3rd and 1's. Converted 70% of 3rd and 3's. Is that a weak rusher? Every single down, Lamar has a 4.2 ypc average or better.

And breaking Lamar down by quarter.

1st Quarter: 54 attempts, 254 yards, 4.7 ypc
2nd Quarter: 47 attempts, 246 yards, 5.2 ypc
3rd Quarter: 63, attempts, 414 yards, 6.6 ypc (minus the 97 yard run, 5.1 ypc).
4th Quarter: 52 attempts, 185 yards, 3.6 ypc

Lamar doesn't get weaker as the game goes on. The data used to suggest Miller gets weaker from carries 11-20 isn't relevant because the sample size is too small. And it can easily be explained away with a number of scenario's, including the fact that runs 11-20 likely take place in the 4th quarter, when you're trying to kill the clock and the defense knows you're going to run (which would explain the 4th quarter ypc drop off too). It's the exact argument we used for Joe Flacco. His 2012 sample size is too small to take it seriously as evidence that he's some kind of GOAT playoff performer. This is no different.

Miller carried more weight in 2014 than 2013. I never even put forth an argument. I said it was something I'm going to keep an eye on this year. In 2013 he played at 212. In 2014 he added weight to play at 218/220. This year he's adding another 5-7 lbs. He doesn't have a big frame. Did the extra weight hurt him? We'll see since he'll be playing at an even higher weight this year. 1987 Offensive Rookie of the year (with the Dolphins) Troy Stradford doesn't think it's a good idea.

http://dailydolphin.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/04/02/extra-weight-could-help-or-hurt-dolphins-running-back-lamar-miller/

Former Dolphins running back Troy Stradford, now an analyst for the Finsiders, said the concern is whether Miller will retain his greatest strength.

“Did he keep his football speed?” Stradford said.

Stradford, the NFL’s offensive rookie of the year in 1987, said he bulked up one season and hated the results. He dropped the weight the following season.

“You can bulk up and still run a fast time vs. the clock but can you really still play at that fast speed with the extra weight?,” Straford said. “There is a difference.”

Miller is a speed back. Not a power back. Did he gain any power this year? Was he breaking tackles this year? Or is he better off with more speed. That is the question.

He's adding 13 lbs to his 212 frame. Do I really need to show a video of Dion Jordan running back that blocked field goal against Detroit to show what extra weight does? :D

http://www.nflrush.com/story/dolphins-block-fg-dion-jordan-runs-it-back-58-yards

But it's good to hear he's already back down to 221 or so. Right around where he played last year. I'd like to see him at 212 where he started. He's not a power back. And so far the coaches have no confidence in him being a workhorse.

Can someone answer this:

Miller had the 2nd best ypc in the whole league.
Daniel Thomas was next. 3.8.

It's obvious Miller should have gotten almost every carry the other RBs not named Moreno, got.

Yet he never hit 20, and barely went above 15 carries per game. We know the staff isn't opposed to giving a rusher that many, as they gave Moreno 24 in his first game.

They went run heavy in that first game and we beat the patriots when Tanny had a pretty bad game. All of a sudden we're a pass first team? This staff, does not see Miller as the all around, #1 running back. Why?

Wrong sort of back to build on offense around.

Like him a ton, pack 8 men in the box and he is not going to create much

I love Miller, I do. I drafted him in all of my keeper leagues, keeping him in another league for 3 years. After this year, I traded him for Mike Evans because they would not give him the carries, even after Moreno went down. I want them to use him more. They didn't.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ajayi gets more carries per game by the end of the season if he's any good. I won't rule it out, but I'd be surprised if Miller is given a heavy workload.

"rafael wrote:

That doesn't debunk it. His carries from 11-20 where far less efficient. That is a fact.

It wasn't a fact in the year previous. Given the sample size of 2013 and 2014, there's no statistical argument to be made either way.

You may decide to ascribe signifigance to an explanation that excuses it, but the fact remains.

I was just proposing an idea, since there no facts that can be derived from the data. Lamar Miller only averaged 13.5 carries a game. Suggesting carries 11-13 are definitive proof of anything isn't accurate. It's absolutely potato.

IMO if you have a player whom you admit doesn't break many tackles then he's not likely to be the guy that's effective at controlling a game or running late when the opponent knows you're going to run. That's basically what you want from your RB late in the game and he hasn't shown the ability to do that thus far.

Miami's run blocking ranked bottom 5 in the NFL in 2014. How exactly is Miller suppose to prove himself in your hypothetical situation? It's akin to suggesting Ryan Tannehill should thrive amidst massive pressure. Our last three 1000 yard rushes (Ronnie Brown, Ricky Williams and Reggie Bush) both experienced similar fluctuation in their 11-20 carries during their time in Miami. With Reggie, you could argue similar to Lamar miller. With Ricky and Ronnie, you can't. I'm using Ricky's last two 1000 yard seasons, Reggie's only two seasons in Miami, and Ronnie's best two seasons in Miami.

2009 Ricky Williams
1-10: 149 693 4.7
11-20 75 330 4.4
21-30 17 98 5.8

2003 Ricky Williams
1-10: 160 547 3.4
11-20 : 140 509 3.6
21-30: 69 220 3.2
31+: 23 96 4.2

Reggie Bush 2011
1-10: 146 734 5.0
11-20: 63 239 3.8
21-30: 9 113 12.6

Reggie Bush 2012
1-10: 152 567 3.7
11-20: 68 377 5.5
21-30: 7 42 6.0

Ronnie Brown 2006
1-10: 130 471 3.6
11-20: 88 434 4.9
21-30: 23 103 4.5

Ronnie Brown 2008
1-10: 164 703 4.3
11-20: 58 218 3.8
21-30: 4 14 3.5

Power runners vs. speed runners. The results? Flucuations in their 11-20 carries year to year. Especially in a two back system, as they dont have enough attemps in the 11-20 category. Hell, the most talented RB of all-time, Adrian Peterson has the same flucuations between his first 10 and second 10 carries throughout his career. I guess he's weaker from year to another? lol.

There is no evidence Lamar Miller gets "weaker" after 10 carries. And there's no evidence that Lamar Miller isn't a feature back. He's in a pass heavy offense, featuring a two back system. A lack of volume is not indicative of his ability.

"jdang307 wrote:

Miller is a speed back. Not a power back. Did he gain any power this year? Was he breaking tackles this year? Or is he better off with more speed. That is the question.

Who said he lost speed? Lamar Miller has said the opposite. I haven't heard a single bad thing about Miller this off-season from any media folk. And considering he was one of the most efficient RB's in the NFL, the weight gain from 2014 turned out to be a smart decision.

"jdang307 wrote:

He's adding 13 lbs to his 212 frame. Do I really need to show a video of Dion Jordan running back that blocked field goal against Detroit to show what extra weight does? :D

Dion Jordan gained 25-30lbs pounds in a year (steroids induced, no less). Lamar Miller gained a 14 lbs in two years. The 7 or so lbs from 2014 proved useful, as he was one of the most efficient RB's in the NFL. The 30 lbs Dion Jordan gained proved as useless as his play from one year to the next.

"jdang307 wrote:

But it's good to hear he's already back down to 221 or so. Right around where he played last year. I'd like to see him at 212 where he started. He's not a power back. And so far the coaches have no confidence in him being a workhorse.

How do you know they have no confidence in him being a workhorse? Because he's in a two back system? The same two back system Miami has been running since 2008, with power rushers Ricky and Ronnie?

"jdang307 wrote:

Can someone answer this:

Miller had the 2nd best ypc in the whole league.
Daniel Thomas was next. 3.8.

It's obvious Miller should have gotten almost every carry the other RBs not named Moreno, got.

Yet he never hit 20, and barely went above 15 carries per game. We know the staff isn't opposed to giving a rusher that many, as they gave Moreno 24 in his first game.

Jamal Charles isn't an every down back either. Only had 206 carries for 1033 yards. Down from last years 259. Which was down from the last year before that, 285. I mean, he was averaging 5 yards per carry, why would you take him out for Kniles Davis, who averaged 3.6? It's obvious Charles should gotten almost every carry... It's almost like there was a purposeful strategy behind limiting his carries...

Jdang307 wrote:

They went run heavy in that first game and we beat the patriots when Tanny had a pretty bad game. All of a sudden we're a pass first team? This staff, does not see Miller as the all around, #1 running back. Why?

1). Miami went run heavy against NE because the pass game was struggling.

2). Knowshon Moreno got 24 carries because Lamar Miller got "benched" for fumbling in the 2nd quarter. Prior to the fumble, Miller and Moreno were trading out every series. After the fumble, Moreno started every series from that point on, with Miller spelling a play or two, until the 4th quarter. Lamar started 1 series in the 4th. Go check the game log to confirm if you wish. And yes, he was "benched" as discussed during the game, by the commentators. And Miller's production, outside of his fumble, was strong at 5.3 YPC. Moreno was like 5.5 ypc. So it wasn't based on production. Both had big days.

3). Joe Philbin has discussed his preference for the two back system. He believes the two back system keeps the runners fresh. It's also an attempt to minimize injury over the course of the season. And lastly, different running styles (power vs. speed) gives the defense different looks and keeps them off-balance. This according to our HC, who has been saying this since 2012 back when Miller was 3rd string.

Damn, I'm good

"jdang307 wrote:

I love Miller, I do. I drafted him in all of my keeper leagues, keeping him in another league for 3 years. After this year, I traded him for Mike Evans because they would not give him the carries, even after Moreno went down. I want them to use him more. They didn't.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ajayi gets more carries per game by the end of the season if he's any good. I won't rule it out, but I'd be surprised if Miller is given a heavy workload.

Lamar Miller is one of the most efficient rushers in the NFL based on 2014.

- Converted 82% of first downs on 3 and 1.
- Converted 70% of his first downs on 3rd and 3.
- More than half of his carries went for 4 yards.
- 40% of his carries went for 5 yards or more.

All the while Miami had one of the worst run blocking lines in football. If Lamar Miller loses playing time, it's because of his blocking and receiving ability (both he claims have improved). Not his rushing ability. Ajayi is going to have to be damn good to stop Miller from getting 215-230 carries. Real ****ing good. Pro Bowl caliber good, because that's the level where Lamar is at right now.

I'm saying that Miller isn't a guy who breaks tackles or makes people miss. When you get late in the game and you want to run out the clock and control the game and your opponent knows that's what you want to do then your back has to either break tackles or make people miss. The defense knows you're running so you're not going to have a numbers advantage or be able to spread them out. Miller wasn't that guy two years ago or last year even with a fluctuation in average. If he does it this year then he'll have to be a different back than he was the last two years.

"Clark Kent wrote:

Who said he lost speed? Lamar Miller has said the opposite. I haven't heard a single bad thing about Miller this off-season from any media folk. And considering he was one of the most efficient RB's in the NFL, the weight gain from 2014 turned out to be a smart decision.

Running back claims running back didn't lose speed.

Dion Jordan gained 25-30lbs pounds in a year (steroids induced, no less). Lamar Miller gained a 14 lbs in two years. The 7 or so lbs from 2014 proved useful, as he was one of the most efficient RB's in the NFL. The 30 lbs Dion Jordan gained proved as useless as his play from one year to the next.

And you see how slow he was. 8 lbs on a thin frame like Miller is significant when speed, not power, is his game. Miller was good last year, nobody disputes that. But he wasn't a workhorse.

How do you know they have no confidence in him being a workhorse?

Because they haven't ran him like a workhorse.

Because he's in a two back system? The same two back system Miami has been running since 2008, with power rushers Ricky and Ronnie?

We've had the same coaches since 2008?

Jamal Charles isn't an every down back either. Only had 206 carries for 1033 yards. Down from last years 259. Which was down from the last year before that, 285. I mean, he was averaging 5 yards per carry, why would you take him out for Kniles Davis, who averaged 3.6? It's obvious Charles should gotten almost every carry... It's almost like there was a purposeful strategy behind limiting his carries...

So you present evidence of Charles's workhorse workload in 2012, as evidence that Charles is not a workhorse ... Prior to this past year, Charles had around 330 touches in 2012 and 2013. If you followed Charles at all you'd know he was hobbled in several games, having to miss one and then battled ankle, knee and hamstring issues all year. You'd know this if you were making an informed argument. Suffered a knee, then ankle injury in December but played through it. Elbow and shoulder in Nov. Listed with a back injury in Oct., as well as a head injury (helmet to helmet).

Despite all of that ... still about the same touches as Miller. Tell you something? Also of note, Jamaal Charles is "losing" weight this year to be quicker and faster. Let's see who is more successful in their approach this year.

1). Miami went run heavy against NE because the pass game was struggling.

Our pass game only struggled against NE in the first game? Never struggled again all year? Amazing.

2). Knowshon Moreno got 24 carries because Lamar Miller got "benched" for fumbling in the 2nd quarter. Prior to the fumble, Miller and Moreno were trading out every series. After the fumble, Moreno started every series from that point on, with Miller spelling a play or two, until the 4th quarter. Lamar started 1 series in the 4th. Go check the game log to confirm if you wish. And yes, he was "benched" as discussed during the game, by the commentators. And Miller's production, outside of his fumble, was strong at 5.3 YPC. Moreno was like 5.5 ypc. So it wasn't based on production. Both had big days.

11 for 59 is not a big day. It's an efficient day save for the fumble.

So when Moreno went out, and Miller was now the #1, of course Miller had plenty of 24 carry games. So I guess we're debating over nothing. Let me see how many 24 carry games Miller had. Oh wait, he didn't, because our passing game never struggled again.

3). Joe Philbin has discussed his preference for the two back system. He believes the two back system keeps the runners fresh. It's also an attempt to minimize injury over the course of the season. And lastly, different running styles (power vs. speed) gives the defense different looks and keeps them off-balance. This according to our HC, who has been saying this since 2012 back when Miller was 3rd string.

A two back system doesn't preclude a running back from getting 20 carries a game. A two back system with Moreno in it produced 35 carries, 24 to Moreno, 11 to Miller.

Damn, I'm good

I'd say delusional more like it ;)

"jdang307 wrote:

Miller never reached 20 carries. What makes us think the position is covered, if the coaches won't run him past 20.

Moreno carried it 24 times in his first game here.

And who is to say that Moreno would have replicated week 1 on a consistent basis? Denver would not have let him get away if that was the case. Look, I liked Moreno as much as the next guy but we cannot keep comparing Miller to him when Miller was consistent and played every week and Moreno, for all intents and purposes was a one week wonder for us.

Technically, I'd say no. I believe the offensive line is the bigger key for success. We're all painfully aware of the struggle there -- especially at OG -- so if Miami can get at least decent to good production, that will be HUGE. A rushing attack in the NFL is essentially based on the offensive line's effectiveness, too, so Lamar can be individually playing well, but if the holes aren't there, the holes aren't there.

Also, I say no because of the presence of Jay Ajayi and Damien Williams. I think Ajayi could start right away and do great without Miller in the mix. But that's not my call, soooo....

If you're saying Lamar individually, no. If you're saying the running game in general, I'd say it's close.

"jdang307 wrote:

Running back claims running back didn't lose speed.

And you see how slow he was. 8 lbs on a thin frame like Miller is significant when speed, not power, is his game. Miller was good last year, nobody disputes that. But he wasn't a workhorse.

He didn't look slow at all.

JDang wrote:

Because they haven't ran him like a workhorse.

Because we throw the ball 37 times a game. We're a passing offense. Take it up with Philbin if you have a problem with that.

JDang wrote:

We've had the same coaches since 2008?

Does it matter? Both coaches ran a 2 back system.

jdang wrote:

So you present evidence of Charles's workhorse workload in 2012, as evidence that Charles is not a workhorse ... Prior to this past year, Charles had around 330 touches in 2012 and 2013. If you followed Charles at all you'd know he was hobbled in several games, having to miss one and then battled ankle, knee and hamstring issues all year. You'd know this if you were making an informed argument. Suffered a knee, then ankle injury in December but played through it. Elbow and shoulder in Nov. Listed with a back injury in Oct., as well as a head injury (helmet to helmet).

You're missing the point. KC limited Charles to keep him fresh and healthy. They've been cutting back, purposefully. He hasn't started 16 games in a few years because of those injuries. One of the benefits of the two back system. And if you were making an informed argument, you would know about Lamar's shoulder injury, which limited him too. Quit making excuses to support a bs argument.

jdang wrote:

Despite all of that ... still about the same touches as Miller. Tell you something? Also of note, Jamaal Charles is "losing" weight this year to be quicker and faster. Let's see who is more successful in their approach this year.

Ok...

jdang wrote:

Our pass game only struggled against NE in the first game? Never struggled again all year? Amazing.
11 for 59 is not a big day. It's an efficient day save for the fumble.

5.4 yards per carry, running at will, is not a big day... Right. Add in 20 yards receiving and a TD too. You're purposefully confusing volume w/productivity.

jdang wrote:

So when Moreno went out, and Miller was now the #1, of course Miller had plenty of 24 carry games. So I guess we're debating over nothing. Let me see how many 24 carry games Miller had. Oh wait, he didn't, because our passing game never struggled again.

We never ran on teams at will like we did in week 1. And one of the biggest complaints the fans had was Lazor's inconsistency to stick with the running game when it was effective. Lamar would be getting 4-5 yards a pop and we would just stop running. More than 50% of his carries went for 4 yards or more.

jdang wrote:

A two back system doesn't preclude a running back from getting 20 carries a game. A two back system with Moreno in it produced 35 carries, 24 to Moreno, 11 to Miller.

We are a PASSING TEAM. That's what the owner, HC, and OC want. I caps locked that for you. So you don't miss it again. How many times did Miami fans complain at the lack of carries Miller was getting, in favor of passing? Like it or not, that's what this offense is designed to do. And the only reason Moreno got 24 carries was because Miller was benched. That number would of been closer to 50/50 otherwise.

jdang wrote:

I'd say delusional more like it ;)

You're creating a narrative out of thin air, that can't be supported. The entire basis of your argument is based on Lamar's YPC on carries 11-20. The sample size is too small to be meaningful. That's a fact. And in the year previous, Lamar's carries 11-20 showed him getting stronger. Neither is statistically relevant because the sample size is too small. Yet, you have decided that Lamar Miller is incapable of getting 20 carries a game simply because he doesn't. The argument you're creating is completely potato. Period. Done.

/end conversation.

"djphinfan wrote:

Gordon is gonna be special, but maybe the combo of Parker and Ajayi will make you feel some joy you'll run to a top of a mountain and scream from your loins, "ME AND VERONICA CORNINGSTONE ARE IN LUV!!!!!

It's not just about Gordon, we didn't really do much to improve the blockers up front either.

How much faith does the team really have in Lamar? They wanted to use their first pick on a RB.