Is Anyone Into Equestrian Sports Here?

The equestrian games are terrible for the race horses and for the non racing horses used in the industry.

"Fin D wrote:

The equestrian games are terrible for the race horses and for the non racing horses used in the industry.

Actually, they are treated pretty well in the equestrian events. Except that some are started too early. I mean, when you have to train a horse for a decade to reach the top levels of the sport, you baby the crap out of them.

Horse racing on the other hand? They are definitely treated like crap. Two year olds are still closing their joints. That is why you don’t see any old racehorses. You do see old dressage and jumping horses.

My wife wishes she were going there, keyfin! I only know enough to be dangerous. :tongue2:

"eltos_lightfoot wrote:

Actually, they are treated pretty well in the equestrian events. Except that some are started too early. I mean, when you have to train a horse for a decade to reach the top levels of the sport, you baby the crap out of them.

Horse racing on the other hand? They are definitely treated like crap. Two year olds are still closing their joints. That is why you don’t see any old racehorses. You do see old dressage and jumping horses.

The whole breeding and steroid regime for ANY horse based business is terrible. Dressage is awful for the horse as is the jumping.

"Fin D wrote:

The whole breeding and steroid regime for ANY horse based business is terrible. Dressage is awful for the horse as is the jumping.

They test for steroids, actually. It isn’t allowed. What is your experience in this field, out of curosity. It is actually not bad at all for the horse.

"eltos_lightfoot wrote:

They test for steroids, actually. It isn’t allowed. What is your experience in this field, out of curosity. It is actually not bad at all for the horse.

I live and work at an animal sanctuary in horse country in Florida.

Steroids aren't allowed in human sports either....

"eltos_lightfoot wrote:

My wife wishes she were going there, keyfin! I only know enough to be dangerous. :tongue2:

Heck, drive up/down and stay with us one weekend. You couldn't go to the events because it's like a billion dollars per ticket, but its still pretty cool wandering around and such. It's a massive property several miles wide/deep and all kinds of free events going on. It's also funny because our small hick town is being invaded by royalty....I got stuck behind three Rolls Royces earlier when I went to get gas for my lawnmower.

Oh, and there's a hurricane passing through here on Friday. LMAO!

My wife's working there for the next two weeks for some side income- they're currently hiring ANYONE at $18/hr to man buffet lines and stuff like that. And she says that it absolutely kicked her butt today...it was a mad-house of people.

"Fin D wrote:

I live and work at an animal sanctuary in horse country in Florida.

Steroids aren't allowed in human sports either....

I would freaking love to do something like that as a volunteer a few hours a week. I used to ride as a kid out in Davie at a local horse ranch and really liked just being around the animals.

"KeyFin wrote:

I would freaking love to do something like that as a volunteer a few hours a week. I used to ride as a kid out in Davie at a local horse ranch and really liked just being around the animals.

We are out near Ocala. We just moved to our new location, 72 acres. We have a 170+ residents...horses, burros, cows, pigs, potbellies, goats, sheep, chickens, turkeys, geese, ducks.

We're 100% vegan facility...so we don't ride our horses or take our animals to schools or events. They just get to live their lives out being themselves.

"Fin D wrote:

We are out near Ocala. We just moved to our new location, 72 acres. We have a 170+ residents...horses, burros, cows, pigs, potbellies, goats, sheep, chickens, turkeys, geese, ducks.

We're 100% vegan facility...so we don't ride our horses or take our animals to schools or events. They just get to live their lives out being themselves.

That's awesome!

"KeyFin wrote:

That's awesome!

Thanks!

Good to see you posting, FinD

Things will be interesting this weekend as the hurricane remnants arrive in this area....it's going to be a freaking mess with millions of tourists here.

"Fin D wrote:

Thanks!

I worked late last night and we ended up going to Applebee's at like 10:30...and there wasn't a single person in the restaurant speaking English. There must have been 100 guys in there in their late 20's/early 30's from Columbia, Spain, Portugal, etc. All were horse trainers or groomers....that shocked me that they'd travel so far for the championships.

What I wanted to ask you about though- my wife told me they had to put a 5 time champion horse down yesterday from Europe. They brought him over 2 weeks ago to acclimate to the weather, and the vets said that he just couldn't take the heat/humidity here (which was around 80 degrees and 50-80% humidity last week). They ended up putting this horse down yesterday from his body shutting down- does that sound normal to you?

I mean, it had to be a very valuable horse....don't they usually bring them indoors or something when they're in distress like that? I just can't imagine the stupidity of letting a prized horse sit in a barn and die from weather changes. Or am I missing something?

"KeyFin wrote:

I worked late last night and we ended up going to Applebee's at like 10:30...and there wasn't a single person in the restaurant speaking English. There must have been 100 guys in there in their late 20's/early 30's from Columbia, Spain, Portugal, etc. All were horse trainers or groomers....that shocked me that they'd travel so far for the championships.

What I wanted to ask you about though- my wife told me they had to put a 5 time champion horse down yesterday from Europe. They brought him over 2 weeks ago to acclimate to the weather, and the vets said that he just couldn't take the heat/humidity here (which was around 80 degrees and 50-80% humidity last week). They ended up putting this horse down yesterday from his body shutting down- does that sound normal to you?

I mean, it had to be a very valuable horse....don't they usually bring them indoors or something when they're in distress like that? I just can't imagine the stupidity of letting a prized horse sit in a barn and die from weather changes. Or am I missing something?

Hmmmm, this sounds a little off to me.

Horses can and do get fatal heat stroke, but it is almost always due tot he heat AND exertion...like being overworked or during a race. There is a birth defect some horses have that causes them to not sweat correctly, but with a horse like that, they would have known it and he likely wouldn't become a race horse. One of the following scenarios sounds more likely to me...

1. Someone missed signs.
I doubt this horse was not being worked and was just overheated in a stall or grazing. So that would mean he was being worked and whoever was working him missed any signs before the body shutting down. But this one is iffy to me too because of my next point.

2. He was shutting down due to another issue that was potentially scandalous (steroids, neglect, insurance, etc.)
If they knew the horse could struggle with the heat to the point they thought they'd need to bring him here 2 weeks early just to get acclimated, then it seems unlikely to me they would overwork him in that heat or miss any signs of heat stroke. It would be like Smokey the Bear accidentally setting a forrest fire.

Here's my problem with equestrian sports (or any animal related industry really) they are making living things into commodities. When a living thing becomes a commodity, compassion goes away for that being. It happened with people and slavery and it happens with food and sport animals. The concern and custodianship of their well being goes as far as profit & loss dictates it to. In equestrian sports, they aren't trying to win because of the purse, they are trying to win because that increases demand for the winner's sperm. Winning races increases the profit of breeding....and it is the breeding that is where all the money is. So putting down a five time winner sucks for them, BUT they already have quite a bit of sperm of his frozen and now that he's dead, the cost of it goes even higher.

We have a beautiful paint horse at the sanctuary from a riding facility in New Jersey. Because she's pretty everyone picked her to ride, so she was ridden every day they were open pretty much all day. Her back started to hurt and she got grumpy when she was forced to carry people on her sore back. So because she wasn't as friendly, they were going to put her down. This is a well regarded horse facility, with plenty of people working there that love horses, but because they couldn't use this horse to profit, she was so worthless that death was the option. This is the norm. Luckily, someone intervened and got her sent to us, where she gets to spend the rest of her life just grazing and being a horse. I can approach her anytime I want and she's not mean or grumpy at all.

"Fin D wrote:

Hmmmm, this sounds a little off to me.

Horses can and do get fatal heat stroke, but it is almost always due tot he heat AND exertion...like being overworked or during a race. There is a birth defect some horses have that causes them to not sweat correctly, but with a horse like that, they would have known it and he likely wouldn't become a race horse. One of the following scenarios sounds more likely to me...

1. Someone missed signs.
I doubt this horse was not being worked and was just overheated in a stall or grazing. So that would mean he was being worked and whoever was working him missed any signs before the body shutting down. But this one is iffy to me too because of my next point.

2. He was shutting down due to another issue that was potentially scandalous (steroids, neglect, insurance, etc.)
If they knew the horse could struggle with the heat to the point they thought they'd need to bring him here 2 weeks early just to get acclimated, then it seems unlikely to me they would overwork him in that heat or miss any signs of heat stroke. It would be like Smokey the Bear accidentally setting a forrest fire.

Here's my problem with equestrian sports (or any animal related industry really) they are making living things into commodities. When a living thing becomes a commodity, compassion goes away for that being. It happened with people and slavery and it happens with food and sport animals. The concern and custodianship of their well being goes as far as profit & loss dictates it to. In equestrian sports, they aren't trying to win because of the purse, they are trying to win because that increases demand for the winner's sperm. Winning races increases the profit of breeding....and it is the breeding that is where all the money is. So putting down a five time winner sucks for them, BUT they already have quite a bit of sperm of his frozen and now that he's dead, the cost of it goes even higher.

We have a beautiful paint horse at the sanctuary from a riding facility in New Jersey. Because she's pretty everyone picked her to ride, so she was ridden every day they were open pretty much all day. Her back started to hurt and she got grumpy when she was forced to carry people on her sore back. So because she wasn't as friendly, they were going to put her down. This is a well regarded horse facility, with plenty of people working there that love horses, but because they couldn't use this horse to profit, she was so worthless that death was the option. This is the norm. Luckily, someone intervened and got her sent to us, where she gets to spend the rest of her life just grazing and being a horse. I can approach her anytime I want and she's not mean or grumpy at all.

That's incredible that they'd even think a dead horse is more valuable than an alive horse- that makes me really hate those rich bastards even more. I'll have my wife find out what sport he did when she goes back to work Monday...I've never followed that stuff at all so I don't know.

It's great that you saved the paint horse as well! I couldn't imagine putting an animal down like that for no good reason. I know having a horse is expensive but man...that's crazy.

Thanks for the info- I think what you're doing is super cool.

"KeyFin wrote:

That's incredible that they'd even think a dead horse is more valuable than an alive horse- that makes me really hate those rich bastards even more. I'll have my wife find out what sport he did when she goes back to work Monday...I've never followed that stuff at all so I don't know.

It's great that you saved the paint horse as well! I couldn't imagine putting an animal down like that for no good reason. I know having a horse is expensive but man...that's crazy.

Thanks for the info- I think what you're doing is super cool.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/04/your-money/horse-breeding-kentucky-derby.html

Take American Pharoah, who captured the first Triple Crown in 37 years when he won the Derby, the Preakness and the Belmont Stakes in 2015. His stud fees started at $200,000 per cover, the equestrian term for a live breeding, before his fee became private.

“A horse like American Pharoah may breed four times a day,” said John Grau, farm manager at Sunnyfield Farm in Bedford, N.Y., which has two horses sired by American Pharoah and plans to sell them at auction this summer. “Some of those top stallions can breed over 200 mares in a season and then go to the Southern Hemisphere and breed again.”

Now imagine, if there was only say 20 vials of American Pharaoh's sperm left, because he was dead....

When it comes time to breed, they have to get the female horse receptive. They don't have time for the actual stud to do it, because his time is valuable. So they almost always have another unaltered male to get the female excited, before the stud comes ion to do the deed. That other male? Never gets to release. Think about that.

"Fin D wrote:

Hmmmm, this sounds a little off to me.

Horses can and do get fatal heat stroke, but it is almost always due tot he heat AND exertion...like being overworked or during a race. There is a birth defect some horses have that causes them to not sweat correctly, but with a horse like that, they would have known it and he likely wouldn't become a race horse. One of the following scenarios sounds more likely to me...

1. Someone missed signs.
I doubt this horse was not being worked and was just overheated in a stall or grazing. So that would mean he was being worked and whoever was working him missed any signs before the body shutting down. But this one is iffy to me too because of my next point.

2. He was shutting down due to another issue that was potentially scandalous (steroids, neglect, insurance, etc.)
If they knew the horse could struggle with the heat to the point they thought they'd need to bring him here 2 weeks early just to get acclimated, then it seems unlikely to me they would overwork him in that heat or miss any signs of heat stroke. It would be like Smokey the Bear accidentally setting a forrest fire.

Here's my problem with equestrian sports (or any animal related industry really) they are making living things into commodities. When a living thing becomes a commodity, compassion goes away for that being. It happened with people and slavery and it happens with food and sport animals. The concern and custodianship of their well being goes as far as profit & loss dictates it to. In equestrian sports, they aren't trying to win because of the purse, they are trying to win because that increases demand for the winner's sperm. Winning races increases the profit of breeding....and it is the breeding that is where all the money is. So putting down a five time winner sucks for them, BUT they already have quite a bit of sperm of his frozen and now that he's dead, the cost of it goes even higher.

We have a beautiful paint horse at the sanctuary from a riding facility in New Jersey. Because she's pretty everyone picked her to ride, so she was ridden every day they were open pretty much all day. Her back started to hurt and she got grumpy when she was forced to carry people on her sore back. So because she wasn't as friendly, they were going to put her down. This is a well regarded horse facility, with plenty of people working there that love horses, but because they couldn't use this horse to profit, she was so worthless that death was the option. This is the norm. Luckily, someone intervened and got her sent to us, where she gets to spend the rest of her life just grazing and being a horse. I can approach her anytime I want and she's not mean or grumpy at all.

I love you man, but this is way off when you say 'all equestrian sports'. Some of these horses take a decade of training to get to the upper levels of dressage. These horses HAVE to love it. That is thousands and thousands of dollars to get these horses to this level. End of story. You can't conflate horse racing, and the crazy practices of the horse racing industry to the traditionally European sports. I mean you can, if you want, but I don't see it. And there is a ton of what you are describing anecdotally, so I am glad you are there to assist with paints and other horses that don't have the raw financial value. The reality is there are too many quarter horse and paint breeders in this country. My wife had to eventually exit that market altogether due to the lack of even breaking even. Thank you for all the work you do to help these animals. I miss you commenting on the fins. :)

"Fin D wrote:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/04/your-money/horse-breeding-kentucky-derby.html

Now imagine, if there was only say 20 vials of American Pharaoh's sperm left, because he was dead....

When it comes time to breed, they have to get the female horse receptive. They don't have time for the actual stud to do it, because his time is valuable. So they almost always have another unaltered male to get the female excited, before the stud comes ion to do the deed. That other male? Never gets to release. Think about that.

This does suck, our studs only do AI for this reason. :) There are some stallions that honestly don't mind. We had one guy, in the past, that didn't like the actual breeding, he just loved to nuzzle and hang out with the mare. LOL. He would have been great as a teasing stallion. He would have preferred that job.

In the long run, we don't even plan to have studs. It is easier to just have a mare herd and AI. We are pretty attached to the stallions, though, so they get to live out their lives with us getting much love.

"KeyFin wrote:

That's incredible that they'd even think a dead horse is more valuable than an alive horse- that makes me really hate those rich bastards even more. I'll have my wife find out what sport he did when she goes back to work Monday...I've never followed that stuff at all so I don't know.

It's great that you saved the paint horse as well! I couldn't imagine putting an animal down like that for no good reason. I know having a horse is expensive but man...that's crazy.

Thanks for the info- I think what you're doing is super cool.

It depends on where you live. We keep all of our old mares (long past breeding age) on our land in the midwest (where we live), and they are pretty cheap if you have enough grazing land and hay pasture. Only have to pay for vaccines and the farrier, basically. We love our old mares, they help steady the young ones, and provide leadership. It's part of the expense when you choose to take on a horse, or twenty.

"eltos_lightfoot wrote:

It depends on where you live. We keep all of our old mares (long past breeding age) on our land in the midwest (where we live), and they are pretty cheap if you have enough grazing land and hay pasture. Only have to pay for vaccines and the farrier, basically. We love our old mares, they help steady the young ones, and provide leadership. It's part of the expense when you choose to take on a horse, or twenty.

I live on 5 acres and I essentially have 3 acres of pasture that leads back to our pond. It wouldn't take a ton of work to fence it in so we've thought about a horse for years now. I may eventually talk to you guys for some advice on doing something like that.

"eltos_lightfoot wrote:

I love you man, but this is way off when you say 'all equestrian sports'. Some of these horses take a decade of training to get to the upper levels of dressage. These horses HAVE to love it. That is thousands and thousands of dollars to get these horses to this level. End of story. You can't conflate horse racing, and the crazy practices of the horse racing industry to the traditionally European sports. I mean you can, if you want, but I don't see it. And there is a ton of what you are describing anecdotally, so I am glad you are there to assist with paints and other horses that don't have the raw financial value. The reality is there are too many quarter horse and paint breeders in this country. My wife had to eventually exit that market altogether due to the lack of even breaking even. Thank you for all the work you do to help these animals. I miss you commenting on the fins. :)

Look, I get you're into dressage and probably have been for a very very long time.

But you cannot act like there's no controversy about the practice of dressage, however.

And again, I challenge you to explain how treating ANY animal in ANY business like a commodity is good for the animal. The simple fact of the matter, is that for every horse bred that excels in dressage (or any other equestrian event) there's countless others that were force bred and had their babies removed, weeded out and culled, Rollkur-ed, sored, sent to slaughter, etc.

I don't doubt you love your horses and treat them amazing, just as i don't doubt many people treat their purebred dogs amazing....but the industry (or again any industry) that thrives off living beings causes real and significant harm tot he whole of those specific beings.

"Fin D wrote:

Look, I get you're into dressage and probably have been for a very very long time.

But you cannot act like there's no controversy about the practice of dressage, however.

And again, I challenge you to explain how treating ANY animal in ANY business like a commodity is good for the animal. The simple fact of the matter, is that for every horse bred that excels in dressage (or any other equestrian event) there's countless others that were force bred and had their babies removed, weeded out and culled, Rollkur-ed, sored, sent to slaughter, etc.

I don't doubt you love your horses and treat them amazing, just as i don't doubt many people treat their purebred dogs amazing....but the industry (or again any industry) that thrives off living beings causes real and significant harm tot he whole of those specific beings.

I agree that we are just going to disagree on this one. Period. I still love the work you do, and thank you for doing it. I just wanted others that come across this thread to know there is more than one approach to horse and animal ownership. Purebred dogs are completely different. I own three mutts. So........................

"eltos_lightfoot wrote:

I agree that we are just going to disagree on this one. Period. I still love the work you do, and thank you for doing it. I just wanted others that come across this thread to know there is more than one approach to horse and animal ownership. Purebred dogs are completely different. I own three mutts. So........................

Do you honestly think the dressage industry isn't doing the same things the purebred dog industry is doing?

Again, there's great dog breeders out there, great dog owners...but the industry as a whole is terrible, and its the same with all animal industries.

And ftr for anyone else, there are MANY purebred dog rescues out there. According the Humane Society, 25% of dogs in shelters are purebreds. Always choose rescue over a breeder. If anyone wants a purebred dog and wants help finding a rescue for that dog, please PM me and I'll help you find one.