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Is Adam Gase the biggest scam in football???

Discussion in 'AFC East Rivals' started by djphinfan, Apr 17, 2019.

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  1. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There have been compelling arguments made when Dallas Thomas and Billy Turner were allowing jailbreak type attacks but it doesn't account for the rest of his tenure here.

    I'd bet everything I own that if Ryan Fitzpatrick is behind center next year we'll be talking less and less about the OL when there is near certain agreement that it's a weakness. Not so sure if Rosen will be any better than Tannehill statistically and if year 1 is any indication he may be worse.

    I couldn't stand the Cutler pickup but one thing I noticed immediately was how crisp his initial pocket movement was and his quickness when he threw. Tannehill tried his best but that split second, twitch like decision making never came easy for him and it's probably why he ultimately failed here. The OL wasn't at the top of the list IMO and I'm sure many here won't agree with me.
     
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  2. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I don't think that Matt Moore or Jay Cutler cared much what the play called was. Moore especially was just out there to chuck it deep as often as possible. Both guys were much more willing to throw the interception into coverage than take the sack too.
     
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  3. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    At least until/unless Jeff Fisher gets another chance.
     
  4. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    I think Gase is a good coach and does have the ability to make chicken salad out of chicken ****. However, once he settled in and the more I learned about him, the more I didn't like him as OUR coach. I don't like his arrogance and the way he values or devalues certain positions like RB. I don't know how we will do, but so far I like Flores and the staff he has put together much better than I did Gase and his staff. Our rebuilding process may take some time, but I believe in the long run we will be much better off. For me, there just seems like there is something RIGHT about the direction we are heading.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
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  5. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I honestly think its the other way around with Gase, turning salad into ****. He badly mismanaged nearly every position on the offense, while at the same time being totally hands off with the defense and special teams. Not sure that he added anything positive to the team at all. In most of the things that are important to me on offense, his Dolphins teams were some of the worst in club history. When Philbin does a much better job than someone, that guy is awful, and that was Gase.
     
  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I dont think he is a good coach 99, and I think he’s even a worse evaluator of talent.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  7. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    I don't think of our roster as one that was loaded for bear, so I think we sort of overachieved with him, but I can see that's probably just me. However, you guys could be right. I don't mind being wrong and nothing would please me more than to see the Jets suffer many more years of mediocrity. As long as WE are on the right track. That's really all I care about because really that's all we can control. We take care of business and things will take care of themselves. :-)
     
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  8. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    Not to beat a dead horse over and over and over, but I think you have to look past the overall record (which was not good in itself) and realize that the team "earned" the overwhelming majority of those wins courtesy of unrepeatable big plays. Take those away, and the team probably goes somewhere around 12-36 the past three seasons. To me, that's the true level of how good they were.

    The team had absolutely no foundation, and Gase seemingly had no desire to either build one or game plan around that. Every play was trying for a touchdown rather than either establishing anything at all that could be built upon. My biggest hope is that the new crew will start much smaller, and try to make sure the players can execute the basics before trying to be the 99 Rams.
     
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  9. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but that's complete bull****. Overall record is all that matters in this league and Gase overachieved with three different 2nd string QBs. I mean, are you actually saying that you're disappointed we won the "Miracle in Miami"? Or that it shouldn't count? Again, that line of thinking is complete bull****. Every team lives for those wins from big plays at the very last second...it's the one thing that separates average teams from great ones.

    I get some people here have an axe to grind. Ultimately, everyone will clearly see who was right/wrong in the Adam Gase saga over the next couple of seasons. But what's 10x more annoying is how everyone blindly accepts that our new regimen must be doing everything right and that the team will be amazing this year. Unless you're in the front office, you have no idea what you're talking about (myself included). That's why this entire thread is a scam...it makes zero sense to beat this drum when the truth will be plainly obvious in six months.
     
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  10. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    We'll agree to disagree. Those kinds of wins are fun when you can feel like you honestly deserved to win 8+ games by traditional means as a base point and those were the cherry on top to get into the playoffs. But when you only have three or so wins every season that you really earned, then the rest of those feel really hollow to me. I know that some will disagree, but I'll never stop feeling that way, and I am in no way ever going to be a bottom line results person. Not in real life, and not in sports either. When the team has one of the worst offenses in the league AND one of the worst defenses in the league, that's the reality. Not the win total. Gase was a sham.
     
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  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah Gase got fired so, there’s merit..it’s my opinion that he is based on what I saw..

    His offense sucked..

    He picked a bad defensive coordinator.

    He picked a coke head to construct a poor line.

    He didn’t use the qbs strengths, the few ones he did have.

    He couldn’t identify good personnel.

    He couldn’t get along with certain players

    And he doesn’t coach on the field in practice..

    = your Azz got fired
     
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  12. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    The fact that we kept getting those “unrepeatable” big plays shows that it was in fact repeatable. We lead the league in 50+ yard offensive TDS last year, and it wasn’t even close to the next best team. We were among the league leaders in takeaways. The problem was the dross in between those nuggets of gold. He built the offense and defense specifically to create those big plays, however the cost was that we were bad at regular football.

    He built the offense and defense around the idea of creating big plays. It’s like making a cake and only caring about the icing and not caring that you’re using rotten eggs and weevil filled flour to make the cake itself.
     
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  13. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He was good at designing trick plays, yipeeeeee!!!

    But sucked at situational football.

    Not all his fault because his qb was just as bad.
     
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  14. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Team Flores

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    No doubt you are correct here. We haven't even played a down yet, so yes, I am probably one of those a little too optimistic about Flores and company. One reason why, though, is a common theme I am hearing: putting players in a position to succeed based on what they do well. I know, right? Blah, blah, blah. We heard it before. Gase has said it. Burke has said it. This time, though, I think our coaches are actually going to do it and it has me excited.
    I seem to remember the other day when I was watching O'Shea talk to the press that he corrected someone on the concept that we are designing plays and then getting our players to fit the playbook (round peg, square hole). Instead, he said something like they want to start with finding what a guy does best, and then design the concepts to fit him. This is also confirmed by something I heard on a podcast where the host was saying that in a book he read by Lombardi, the Patriots way is if the scouts can find one thing a player does really well, then the coaches can find a role for him. After seeing how long it took for guys like Ajayi and Drake to really participate in our games, I am encouraged that our new coaches seem to be looking at our players with a different lens. Of course, this could all be horse ****, LOL. I don't know. However, I want to be positive about our team, so I have to hang my hat on something until we start seeing some real action. :-)
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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  15. Big Phin

    Big Phin Member

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    Ah, Dolphins vs Jets 2019... battle for the title "Tallest Midget"... :beer:

    I usually don't wish ill on any of our former players/coaches that go to other teams. Since he's the Jest coach, however, I hope he falls on his face and eats dirt.
     
  16. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Did Gase pick the coke head, or just keep him on staff after inheriting him?
     
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  17. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Yes, love it! The Pats have been exceptionally good at finding mismatch players at pretty much every position. Their offense has shifted so many times over the years from quick passing to power running to downfield passing to TE oriented. Then the rest of the league tries to copy. Hopefully we can help set the trends going forward rather than react and copy them.
     
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  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Either way Res, he chose him.
     
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  19. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    Someone would do well to determine whether Peyton Manning and Jay Cutler's (with the Bears) performances deviated significantly from their career norms while working with Gase.

    I suspect not, and Gase's work with them was supposedly his calling card.
     
  20. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I tend to disagree. I mean, why didn't the previous coach get rid of him? Why didn't Ross get rid of him? Why didn't anyone in the organization make the decision to get rid of him? So to me it does matter if he picked him or if he inherited him.
     
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  21. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    That was the death knell on Tannehill's career. Destined to be a career backup at this point.
     
  22. Dolphin Dundee

    Dolphin Dundee Well-Known Member

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    I thought the Pats were gonna pick him up and groom him as Bradys successor. All he needed was the right system?
     
  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I think the problem for Tannehill is his age + multiple missed seasons for his knee. No one is going after him to be a starter at this point.
     
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  24. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was kind of obvious he wasnt the same QB after.

    His pocket presence was never great but he at least had the ability to extend a play with his athleticism and make something happen from time to time.

    Last year he was a statue like Drew Bledsoe.
     
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  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tannehill has always been the same guy..for the most part he was a sitting duck and defenders and coordinators alike knew exactly how to defend the guy..

    Terrible situational qb who didn’t know how to win and stay on the field or manage a team..
     
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  26. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    This offseason was a really bad one for RT to be looking for a new team, between his own injuries and the lack of starting spots available around the league. Next year, there will likely be a number of other teams looking for at least a bridge QB after they move on from their current guy, and I'd bet he gets a shot to show he can still play somewhere. If things go well (for him, meaning bad for Mariota) in Tennessee this season, it could even be there.
     
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  27. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Given Mariotta's injury history, Ryan Tannehill could be starting early.
     
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  28. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Using adjusted passer rating, none of Cutler's years are statistically significant and only one year for Peyton Manning is statistically significant: his last year. So nothing Gase did stands out from that perspective.

    Numbers:
    Adjusted to 2018 where the league average rating was 92.9, Cutler's average rating per year is 92.7 with standard deviation 6.09, meaning that statistical significance would occur at approx. <80.5 or >104.9 and neither occurred though 2016 Cutler came really close with an adjusted rating of 81.2. Adjusted average for Manning is 108.5 with standard deviation 15 so you'd need <78.5 or >138.5 and that occurred only once in Manning's last year with a 69.9 though 2004 came fairly close with 135.9.

    I probably shouldn't have used 2018 numbers since they're so counter-intuitive. I mean 92.9 = league average? Still don't think we'll see that again this year. Either way, statistical significance won't be affected so the answer is the same w.r.t. Gase.
     
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  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to be positive as well and give this new leadership the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. That's hard for me though after Sparano, Philbin and Gase...it's been a three year cycle and I really feel like Ross has learned nothing over that 9 year span. We'd talk a big game, announce that we hired the "perfect candidate" and then we'd do very little to support him. All three coaches (4 if you count Campbell) were around .500 yet we went full rebuild every time...I just don't agree with that philosophy...not every three years.

    To land our head coach, a team has to do more than give them a few free agents and block 90% of everything else. For instance, Suh crippled us for years because we were in cap hell and couldn't build around him- just that single move by the front office doomed us for several years. Since that approach has failed over and over again, we're taking a completely different approach of firing virtually everyone who's an aging play-maker and building from scratch....which is smart in a sense but also requires a lot of patience. What will folks here say in two years after back to back losing seasons? If it's "Fire Flores!", then we just wasted another few seasons AND jettisoned our favorite players for nothing.

    All I want to see is long-term consistency and we haven't had that in the Ross era. Philbin has no idea what was going on with his own team and he bet his future on Tannehill, so I understand letting him go. But Sparano, Campbell and Gase? I just don't get what Ross is hoping to accomplish when he lets people around him talk him into abandoning his own plan time and time again. No team in any sport can grow that way- we need to go all-in on somebody and actually stick it out. That's what has me so frustrated.

    Look at it this way- if you believe Gase, Philbin, Sparano, Ireland and many others were not the right fit, then how can you be all-in on Flores? The one constant is that Ross is clueless.
     
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  30. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I think a 3-4 year tryout period is just about right because most HC's that turn out to be long term winning coaches show it within their first 2-3 years (there are a few prominent exceptions like Landry and Belichick, but that's not the trend). I mean 3-4 years should be enough to show what you're made of, and long term stability with a .500 coach just means you remain mediocre with high probability for a long time. At least trying out a new coach every 3-4 years means you have a higher probability of performing better or worse, whichever it is. It's actually a bit surprising to me we've stayed mediocre for so long with little variance lol.

    I'm also partial to the "finding the right coach is more luck than skill" theory as I doubt anyone has a repeatable formula. There's really only one exception to this among NFL franchises and that's Pittsburgh. Since 1969 they've only had 3 HC's, all with winning records and all SB winners. But among 32 franchises it's not at all surprising to find an exception here or there.

    So I think Ross is doing the right thing in trying a new coach out every 3-4 years though as owner I would have fired all after at most 3 years. We'll eventually get it right, most likely through luck alone. Just have to be patient which I know is challenging as hell!
     
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  31. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Everyone just thought Eric Weddle was making things up....but he knew what everyone else did or eventually do now about RT.
     
  32. Vertical Limit

    Vertical Limit Senior Member

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    Looks like Woody is diving head first into the gase scam.. jesus christ what a dumpster fire NY looks...

    It kind of reminds me of how Rex started. Its gonna look hot the first two years, and then itll sink real fast.
     
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  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We don’t know for sure what we have, but we did find out what we didn’t want, therefore needing to make the change..

    The biggest mistake by ownership is the inability to identify strong head coaching leadership traits..Gase and Philbin are not, Flores has those traits imo, that’s what’s encouraging.

    What also encourages me is the things other people say about him and the tone they use, also, at first his desire was to be a personnel man..and lastly, because of what kind of man he really is, what he stands for, and how his mere presence can make other men get their sh## together.
     
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  34. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It’s ok to be wrong Res. Tannehill sucks and was always nothing more than a bottom tier QB.
     
  35. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I still disagree with that statement.
     
  36. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Likewise
     
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  37. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    And with the exceptions like Belichek and Landry even though their W-L records hadn’t ended up in the positive column their teams had been steadily improving in many key statistical areas such as total yards/made allowed, yards per play, turnover margin. So even with their W-L record not being positive The was good reason to believe that they were on their way to winning.

    The only reason to keep a HC who isn’t winning after 3 years that I can see is if they are generating genuine continuous improvement on both sides of the ball.

    Same with QBs. There’s some research I was reading that said it basically takes 1000 attempts to determine if you’ve got a quality QB or not, which is roughly 3 year worth of starting. So if your HC or QB is not “the man” after 3 years it’s time to get the replacement lined up.
     
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  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Okay, but you almost know for certain that Flores will be under .500 this season- the trenches are void of any talent on either side of the ball. Maybe we make up for that in scheme or QB scrambling- teams did tend to rush 3 against Rosen last year and he was still sacked a ton. So maybe we get lucky and somehow win 8 or even 9...but that's not practical. Year 1 will suck.

    In year 2, maybe we successfully tank for Tua. That means new quarterback, new learning curves, and lot of mistakes. Maybe we shore up the offensive line some and have a decent 2020 season....I still can't see more than 8 wins. So that has you going into year 3, maybe 2021 is when we finally blow the roof off of things.....let's say we win 10 or 11 there. Maybe we even get a playoff win or two. Sweet right?

    Yet when we look at the 3 year history, we're going to see two losing seasons and a playoff berth- exactly what we just did with the coach we fired. And what do we do at that point heading into the 2022 season? Fire Flores since his overall record is sub .500? And what will we really have learned in that process? I just don't want to keep up this loop of mistakes while seeking perfection.

    No AFC East team has won in Gilette in the past decade except for the Wildcat game....our division is 1-29 against the Pats and Brady. For that to change, we're eventually going to have to stick with one of these close to .500 coaches and let them build out the rest of their roster while competing. And I just don't think you get there in 3 years unless you're using what's already in place in terms of talent- I think cutting Wake and company instantly set us back two seasons.
     
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  39. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    2019 Dolphins will likely be bottom feeders, but 2020 is too hard to predict. If Flores is worth anything he'll have us at least middle of the pack. And if we do make the playoffs in 2021 that means we'll have improved each and every year under Flores. That's sufficient reason to let year 4 be the deciding year to see if 2021 was a fluke or not so the 3-4 year test period should work fine here. But if year 3 is mediocre, then yeah I'd fire him because that shouldn't happen if you have your franchise QB and 3 years to build the rest of the team.

    As far as Gillette Stadium, that will take care of itself. Belichick and Brady are human and will retire eventually. Even if so many people (including me) have been wrong about when that will happen, I'm willing to make an actual bet with money that at least one of the two will be retired by 2022. I mean.. Brady will be 45 at the beginning of the 2022 season which would make him the oldest starting QB ever (Testaverde currently holds that record having been a meaningful starter till 44.. Moon and DeBerg technically played till 44 but not in any serious starting QB capacity.. and Blanda played till 48 but NOT as a QB, as a kicker!). So that's a bet I'm willing to make (and to sweeten the deal for me it better be 1:1 odds lol.. not going to bet real money unless I think I'll win!!)
     
  40. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    As I suspected. Thank you very much for the work.

    It's amazing how something can become a prevailing narrative (i.e., "Gase is a quarterback whisperer") in the absence of any objective evidence of it.
     
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