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Is Adam Gase the biggest scam in football???

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Apr 17, 2019.

  1. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Well we weren’t really debating Tannehill, we were just trying to find the right label to put onto his problem with sacks.
    The real point is that we as fans could see that it was obvious Tannehill needs a solid OL to be productive, yet “boy genius” Gase did nothing to rectify it.
    We were using Tannehill as an example to illustrate Gase’s deficiencies as a coach.

    Another example is that as fans we could see opposing teams targeting our
    LBs as an area of weakness in the defense, yet the boy genius only slowly came around to trying to fix the problem. In his theory of football it’s the DL and DB that is important so you can skimp on the LB. While that may be good in theory opposing teams just bullied us with TEs and RBs in the short/intermediate passing game.
     
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  2. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I liked Tanne and supported him for a long time, but the fact is he was way over drafted. 8? Way too high. We were just too desperate.
     
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  3. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Also I'd say Philbin was a much bigger wtf. Though he wasnt a hot name nationally but as far as just us fans go.

    "Worked with Aaron Rodgers" "Experience" "Great offensive mind and system"

    Then proceeds to make sure we have the cleanest practice field and all our shoes are tied.
     
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  4. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I never, ever wanted Philbin as HC. As soon as his name started to surface in the Autumn of 2011, I said no way, and I was angry and depressed when he was hired. I think that he was, at best, a below average HC who deserved to be fired sooner than he was.

    All that being said though, he was better than Gase. The Dolphins offenses of 2013 and 2014 weren't the most talented, but they used what they had in the right way, and moved the ball up and down the field smartly. Their failures came from poor play calls in the Red Zone and just not being as good as their better opponents. But Philbin had more comfortable wins that didn't come down to the last second every single season than Gase did his entire time with the Fins.

    None of that is to prop up Philbin. Its just to slam how disgusted I was with Gase, who's record deserved to be far worse than it was. The only Miami coach worse than him was Cameron.
     
  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    But that's where you're wrong- we've had 19 quarterbacks start since Marino retired and a 20th & 21st will take the field this season (since Fitz won't start all 16 games). The scam is believing the next guy will be Russel Wilson and an offensive line won't be necessary- you absolutely must study the past to make strides in the future.
     
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  6. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    How necessary a solid OL is definitely depends on the type of QB you have. Get a highly mobile QB and a good OL is much less of a need. Doesn't mean we go that route, just saying that a solid OL is not an absolute must, especially since you have only a finite amount of resources and have to prioritize. That's also something that's obvious without looking back at Tannehill. Gase was the one that couldn't see the obvious with Tannehill, doesn't mean Flores has the same problem.
     
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  7. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    No...it doesnt depend on the type of QB you have.

    There are less than 5 QBs in the game that play the way you are implying with any sort of success. Which means it's not a rule, it's an exception.

    The idea that a mobile QB doesnt need a line is dumb to say the very least IMO.
     
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  8. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Of course it depends on the type of QB you have. You just admitted it. I never said it was the rule, just that you can't blindly go in with the strategy of building a strong OL if you happen to have a shot at Kyler Murray or so. Furthermore, you don't need to be Russell Wilson to play well with a bad OL. Pocket QB's that have a quick release do well also. It's not as much of an exception as you're making it out to be, especially since so may OL's in the NFL today aren't that good.
     
  9. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, be a better evaluator of talent, doesn’t listen to the coach who is unqualified, when you have a flawed qb starter on your roster, and a Pat Mahomes is staring right at you, go in a different direction, that’s what we should learn from the past.
     
  10. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    This is spot on. His main problem was lack of good pocket presence. It's something not all QB's have and RT certainly didn't have it. That along with not really having a killer instinct and not being much of a leader is what separated him from the elite QBs in the league. Gase and tbaum made matters worse by refusing to address the guard position adequately and by not drafting a QB to really challenge RT.
     
  11. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I misspoke. I had my doubts bout gase after the first season. But it wasn't until towards the end of the second season that I knew for sure he was a fraud.
     
  12. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely a huge scam. I never once saw an offensive guru out there. The guy couldn't handle egos, surrounded himself with cronies, failed to adapt, and wouldn't listen to anyone.

    I can't wait to see what happens when he inexplicably stops giving Bell the ball for no apparent reason.
     
  13. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    upload_2019-4-23_15-32-18.png
     
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  14. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    You can go with the OL strategy if you absolutely will not draft a QB like Murray though. As you said, QBs like that are the exception. So, all you need is to reject/avoid them on those rare times that they're available.

    If you can build the strong OL and then draft a good, traditional QB, then there's no reason that cannot be a solid plan. Nothing is guaranteed to work, but it seems to me to be a lot more reasonable and sensible than shooting for the stars trying to do something unique.
     
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  15. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Aiming to draft only highly mobile QB's like Murray and rejecting pocket passers outright would be "shooting for the stars", and compared to that approach I agree your strategy is better. However, an even better strategy would be to retain sufficient flexibility so that you can decide which OL strategy to pursue AFTER you pick your QB.

    We need that potential franchise QB on the roster by 2020 or as far as I'm concerned the new regime is incompetent. So I'd prefer to spend high picks on other areas of weakness (and this team has many such areas) this year if we don't pick a QB. Spend mid/low round picks on OL if you want, but I'd stay away from using high picks on OL until we know what kind of QB we have.
     
  16. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Oline should always be a priority. Murray had a great oline in Oklahoma which allowed him to be great. All QBs need a good oline. Murray is not the exception.
     
  17. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I will continue to argue that without a solid ol, and rookie QB that we draft is doomed to fail. It's an endless loop.
     
  18. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    "A good QB doesn't need an o-line" is the new "Aiming for a franchise QB in the 3rd round (or later) is viable strategy".
     
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  19. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Here's the thing though- on college film, Tannehill played like that highly mobile QB we wanted and Philbin convinced him that he was talented enough to be a pure pocket passer. And maybe he was, but we didn't have other pieces in place to make that happen. So we changed the 1st round quarterback then tried to morph the pieces around him to fit as well...that's plain stupid in my opinion when you can just grab a QB that fits what you're trying to do on day 1. Despite what we may want or don't want, the player has to fit the system or he's just not worthy of a 1st round pick.

    I'm not trying to start another RT conversation- I'm merely pointing out that a guy like Murray will do very well in certain offenses and struggle in others. I don't have an informed opinion on Rosen or any of the 2019 class, but I do hope we end up with a player who's skills fit what we already have in place for a new offensive system. If we go the Philbin/Tannehill type route all over again with the 5 year learning curve, then it was really pointless since our new head coach will be fired long before any real results show up on the field.

    In other words, choosing Tannehill doomed two different head coaches over a six year period, even though he did exactly what was asked of him the entire time. At some point it has to stop being about talent and start being about common sense...we don't need to reach on a QB regardless of style or talent.
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is driving me nuts man, the continued excuse making for a 30 year old QB, Geez man..
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  21. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I disagree with that. First of all, I think Philbin was right to try and make Tannehill more of a pocket passer. Tannehill had a lot of things to work on in that regard and the last thing you want is for the guy not to learn. What we didn't know at the time was that Tannehill never had the pocket presence or football smarts to go along with the physical talent to be a good pocket passer.

    So I don't fault this franchise for picking Tannehill. Draft is mostly a crapshoot. I fault them for not getting rid of Tannehill earlier.

    Secondly, we don't really have a "system" to just plug a QB into. This team is fairly depleted, and a good coach should be able to adapt to the players he has to some degree. If this team were mostly built but lacking at QB I'd agree with you but we're in rebuild mode here so we should have flexibility! And at a position as crucial as QB you definitely reach for talent. Just look at SB winners the last 15+ years and you'll see how crucial a very good QB is. Mantra should be "try until you succeed, but don't settle for average".
     
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  22. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I agree with a lot of what you're saying. However, I don't fault them for picking Tanne, but I do fault them for picking him at 8. Way too high for him. Maybe in the second, ok. Not at 8. It's funny, but you can find college highlight reels of just about any QB, even late rounders, but I looked for highlight reels of Tanne and there were hardly any. I think there was more WR highlights of him than QB highlights. Not a good sign. We overreached. Kudos to him for making the best out of it, being a tough guy and doing a good job at times, but he just didn't have all the qualities of being that franchise guy.
     
  23. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I understand that you want to argue that he was overrated or over drafted, but of the 15 quarterbacks taken in the first and second rounds between 2011-2014, he is among the top five. That pretty much solidifies that he was drafted where he should have been, as the best QBs are going to go in the first round every year, even if they aren't among the top 32 players in a talent vacuum.
     
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  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    You have to pick a side somewhere here. First you loved Philbin...then hated him. You loved Tannehill....then hated him. You loved Gase and what we'd see from Tannehill, gave us several "I told you so's", then turned on both of them.

    I'm saying the same thing today that I said 2, 4, and 6 years ago- Tannehill was always a hair short of being "the guy". Philbin was to trusting and Gase was too much of a dictator, but all three had some awesome qualities as well. Regardless of what anyone thinks or says, I'm not suddenly going to hate on any of them because they're not here anymore. I root for every former Miami player/coach since their success becomes a part of our story- I'm not sure why you have such a problem with that.
     
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  25. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I haven't done any homework on our new coach or Grier for that matter, but part of their interview process is pitching schemes and processes on how they run their football team. So I'm sure there's some type of offensive style already in playbooks that's being adjusted based on the talent we currently have. My point is that I'm hoping that overall scheme fits players like Stills, Wilson, Grant, etc. and we're not going to continue to toss out young talent to create a certain mold....we've basically done that in the trenches already and it's worrying.

    As far as Tannehill goes, I just think he was too much of a project for #8 overall. He does have great arm talent and that sometimes masks a whole lot of other stuff, which we experienced as a franchise for 6 years now. And while I agree with you that Philbin had to make him more of a pure pocket passer, I think they tried too much, too quickly with a kid that was too eager to please. I said back then that he had no business starting year one and I think that's how we got here today....he was just rushed into it too quickly instead of being allowed to develop.

    That's never worthy of a 1st rounder in my opinion...but he had to start because we vastly overpaid. I think he had a pretty solid career under the circumstances though since he was so horrible in that pocket. I mean, he was still closing his eyes last year before taking big hits...and several of those plays led to strip sacks or six points going the other way. How many times do we have to see that before it stops being Tannehill's fault?

    It's like asking a cow to lay an egg- it's not the cow's fault he can't do it. Most with any semblance of intelligence would blame the farmer (who in this case is Ross since that was a requirement of an incoming coach). That's why I don't completely fault Gase either- he did what he could with a QB who just couldn't fully figure the pocket out.
     
  26. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is just my view from afar as a fan but I always felt Tannehill's issue was primarily derived from his inability to read the field. I think most (maybe 95%) of QB prospects just don't really see the field to the extent that is required and they ultimately wash out because of it. They either routinely throw the ball into bad spots or they simply can't read what's there and end up patting the ball, getting sacked or just giving the DBs too much time to close. All of that makes other things look bad: pocket-awareness, pass-pro, WRs, play-callers, a HC's play-book, etc.

    Looking back, Tannehill seems like another good example of a physically talented but mentally average prospect. Anytime he started airing it out you got some real questionable throws into traffic. And of course he was never quick getting the ball out. That signaled to me that he just didn't quite possess the ability to read what he saw. He wasn't able to anticipate whether a WR was going to come open nor was he able to decipher how long a WR was going to remain open. He didn't do anyone around him any favors. Nobody looked better as a result of being around Tannehill.

    That may sound harsh but it's the measuring stick for QBs.

    To my eyes, that was the quality about Tannehill that never changed and it's really the determining factor as to whether a guy will wash out or whether he'll remain a viable option.

    You can talk about extraneous factors...systems, teammates, play-callers, etc. I can appreciate that scrambling is more important now than ever considering the demands put on QB's throwing abilities but if a guy struggles to read the field he's more or less dead in the water. As we saw from Philbin's numerous OC's (plus Gase' tenure), a coach simply cannot overcome a QB who has that type of deficiency. When I watch the better QBs, they seem to find their WRs fast and they do a really good job of never letting a DB get too close to catching a ball.

    It could simply be more a gunslinger trait but I'm starting to believe that the best QBs simply have a knack for seeing things developing which is completely unteachable: Marino, Rodgers, Favre, etc. The guys who make it based on football IQ don't miss a beat either. Manning and Brady were both masters.

    That isn't to say you need to be a HoF guy. I think there's a minimal level required. It's why Tannehill gets dumped and someone like Matt Ryan remains an active starter. He's not perfect but he's still way above what most guys offer.

    Steve Young has talked openly about how his career only took off once he made efforts to see the field to the extent that Bill Walsh demanded. I believe Walsh made a comment to him that he wasn't long for the NFL world if he didn't improve what he was seeing.

    That surely requires some understanding of offensive- and defensive-play design but that ought to be somewhat clear when talking to somebody and watching whether it's happening on an instinctual level or not. It's safe to say that seeing the field evolve post-snap was never instinctual with Tannehill.

    Still, I think the determining factor is how well a QB can rapidly process information. Certainly some of it is made better by football-IQ and pre-snap anticipation (with a little guessing and gamesmanship!), but to my eyes, the speed at which a QB thinks and reacts really appears to govern the whole thing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  27. Drizzy

    Drizzy Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Funny how Grier was the only guy who dodged blame for this hire
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Of course I give every player or coach a chance to be successful Key, that doesn’t mean I wanted them before the aqusitions, I was out on Philbin very early (after Hard knocks early)but still rooted, I was out on Tannehill early but still rooted and hoped of course, I was out on gase after camp last year and giving him a fair amount of time to show his worth..

    Russel Wilson would of been our Qb instead of Tannehill, and if I couldn’t Of had him, then Pat Mahomes would of replaced tannehill 3 years ago..

    Mike Tomlin, Mike Zimmer, Dan Campbell are coaches I lobbied for over the years.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Good post, there were many fatal flaws and lack of vision was one of them
     
  30. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I dont think that the idea that people are more successful in certain situations = excuse making.

    Like I said with Gase though I agree it's time to just move on.
     
  31. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thanks.

    In regards to Gase and your original topic, I agree, but (1) I don't know quite how many people actually want the task of defending/hyping Gase at this stage and (2) most offensive coaches are over-sold.

    Knowing what I do now, I agree that Adam Gase was not head coach material when we hired him. In hindsight I am massively disappointed with the coaching staffs he put together. I am also quite surprised at how much turmoil occurred under his reign.

    I could be wrong but I think most success stories about coaches rebounding include them taking time off after being fired. Gase's hopping right back into another opportunity in NY seems both presumptuous on his part and quite odd from that of the Jets.
     
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  32. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's also not that simple as having a quick release, as there had to be receivers open, for instance. There's many reasons why QBs take sacks, and pocket awareness is only a one of them at work on each and every play.
     
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  33. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    There are quite a few coaches that took a 2nd HC job immediately after being fired and found success: Shula*, Dungy, Fox, Reeves, Schottenheimer and Holmgren are some examples. So I don't think that's much of an issue when projecting success for Gase. The real issue is that the great majority of HC's that end up successful show it early (including those I just listed) as you can see here:
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/

    Belichick and Landry are famous exceptions to that rule. I seriously doubt Gase will join them lol.

    * "traded" in the case of Shula so maybe I shouldn't list him..
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  34. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh, my mistake...I meant coaches who were fired because the experiment clearly hadn't worked.

    Shula got fired after getting Baltimore to the Super Bowl. Dungy had 11-, 10- and 9-wins in his final 3 seasons with Tampa. And as I recall living here in SC, Fox was always pretty solid with Carolina. I think the Panthers just felt it was time for new blood.

    I was referring particularly to those coaches who left with their tail between their legs after getting a "don't let the door hit you on the way out" kind of firing. That said, you still may be correct, IDK.

    In particular I'm thinking of Pete Carroll's failed stints in NE and NY before taking an extended break from the NFL to coach at USC.
     
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  35. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Interesting.. yeah harder to research because there are so few examples just going through the list. Belichick and Shanahan are other examples in addition to Carroll.
     
  36. DolphinGreg

    DolphinGreg Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah, I think it may be common for guys who find themselves somewhat challenged by the scope of the first job to take a step back for a few years before taking that next job.
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Its draft eve, I don't give a fu## about that NY jet lil Bit##.

    we have a bad *** coach that demands respect, Im proud of this coach and thats not something i could not say for the past decade..

    I hope we kick their freakin azz.
     
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  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes he is..
     
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  39. Bumrush

    Bumrush Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Speaking of Tannehill I wonder why Jay Cutler, Matt Moore and Brock has lower sack percentage rates than Tannehill? Maybe it wasn't just about the OL and more about a QB that couldn't evade pressure, throw the ball away or make quick reads. Just saying...
     
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  40. Miamiforlife

    Miamiforlife Active Member

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    Since he wasn't a true qb. His decision making skills sucked. Imo
     

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