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Discussion in 'AFC East Rivals' started by djphinfan, Apr 17, 2019.
When your biggest enemy gets your former fraud of a head coach it’s leg worthy imo.
He said it was the worst practice He had seen in 12 years of playing and 18 years of broadcasting.
He then went on to say he said that to Gase privately after the practice and Gase said he didn’t have the power to change the culture.
Schlereth said it was a sign of dysfunction in Miami. I view it as a sign that Gase is/was a bad coach.
Edit to add: Based on Schlereth’s comments I would assume the practice he referred to was in 2018 when “culture” had become a big issue with the team. By then Gase had already had the best part of 3 years to turn around the culture. When you’re the HC you are the biggest person responsible for the culture of the playing and coaching staff. If you’re any good you don’t need any more power.
I have been in organizations that have changed their culture for better and for worse. I have taken over teams and got them to produce at significantly higher levels than other teams by changing the micro-culture. What Gase said is pure loser speak, said by someone who thinks they can declare a culture change, snap their fingers and have it happen (which is how most corporations do it).
I don’t think Don Shula, Vince Lombardi, Bill Walsh or Bill Belichek ever moaned to the media about changing the culture, they just did it.
Anyways here is my personal list on how to change an organization’s culture.
1) Be an expert on how the worker has to do their job. People won’t follow you if they can’t see that you can improve their individual performance. People will come to you for help to improve their skills only if they think you can help them.
2) Be present. When the cat’s away the mice will play. If workers know the boss is around and will notice small mistakes they take more care. Also the boss can encourage people when they do well. If the workers think the boss doesn’t care, they’ll stop caring.
3) Make team outcomes more important than individual outcomes. This also means the worker needs to know what their co-workers are doing and why. This allows workers to cover for each other, to pick up the slack when needed. Never let “well I did my job” be an acceptable excuse.
4) Have rewards/punishments linked to clear and easy to understand objectives. Use a mix of team and personal objectives. People notice when non-performers get rewards. People notice when their good work goes unrewarded. If a person isn’t doing their job and pulling the team down you want their teammates to apply pressure to them, not just pressure from the bosses. Never say “I want you to do [X]” then reward [Y].
5) Reward people for innovation. If they do something off-script that leads to positive outcomes reward that as long as it can be replicated. If you demand the workers be robots they will stop thinking. Perfection is the enemy of better. You want your people to think “next time I will improve”, not “If I do it this way it cannot be bettered.”
You’ll notice that speechifying and sloganeering are absent. Changing culture for the better takes hard grinding unspectacular work.
I agree 99%
The 1% exception I'd say is if the GM just keeps taking and signing guys with a "I don't care" attitude against his will and after repeated efforts nothing changes.
However, that isnt the case here IMO.
What Gase was saying <between the lines> is that many of the leaders on the field had a lousy work ethic, were unorganized and made practices a nightmare. He asked for these people to be replaced and was denied by the front office. That's why I repeatedly said Gase was leaving Miami no matter what after last year- there were too many chiefs and not enough indians. You can't run a team that way.
You're attributing a football team to run the same way as a restaurant or a Fortune 500 company- but it just doesn't work like that. A NFL team runs more like Congress...you have a bunch of self-proclaimed important people in the building who are doing their own thing and lobbying for votes on their grand agenda. And when something runs like that, when it's broken to the core because of an idiot leader (Ross) who has nothing to do with the day to day business yet makes the most important decisions based on feedback, it's IMPOSSIBLE to build any sort of culture.
The culture in Miami was to survive...that's it. It wasn't about accountability, doing the right thing, or any principle you'd want to build a franchise on. It was about manipulating Ross to be able to do whatever the heck you feel like, which is why turnover has been so huge in recent years. That's all 100% Ross and he's too dumb to realize it.
I know this is geared more toward business, but this is excellent! Mind if I poach it? It's not my present goal, but if I am ever in a management position I would like to use it.
Go for it. I would also say that my points (1) and (2) are far and away the most important. Also there are other items you may want to include, but I consider those 5 to be the biggest ones.
This is a little different from motivating individuals, which has to do more about getting inside their heads and working out which levers work best for each individual.
I just think there's going to be some mutiny with the defensive leaders on the team when you only really get involved with the offense on a day-to-day basis. Poster @Carmen Cygni warned of this and ultimately was right.
The soft practices don't surprise me, it always felt like he was trying to keep the players in bubble wrap leading up to the season. I think this lead to a less-physical, less-conditioned, and maybe more injury prone (the exact thing he was trying to avoid) team overall.
To not condition them properly is player abuse..lol
don't buy that at all. The culture is instilled by the head coach and also to an extent with GM who brings in the players. FInding yet another thing to blame ROss for is just silly. Ross has nothing to do with the culture. Ross' mistake was hiring Mike T. I'd flip it around and state that Ross is now pushing his influence much more and has set the tone for this complete rebuild.
Damn Key, why are just disregarding all the things about this guy?
What about what I saw for five days of important camp practice?
As always, Ross asked, "Who should I hire so we can be perennial Super Bowl contenders?" And as always, he got 50 names from 50 different people. Maybe 10 of those people has ever thrown a football, but that doesn't matter...he takes their advice anyway. Then he eventually hires someone, hangs out for all of 10 minutes, then flies back to NY until there's people to impress in his owner's box 8 times a year. That's the full extent of "Ross picking the right leader to create a winning culture."
And what happens? Executives are hired based on their business background- most have zero experience in football. Friends hire colleagues based on loyalty because that's what you do when you have an absent leader. Your only job is to get enough voices on your side so when the team is average, you have someone else to blame.
That's been the pattern in Miami since Ross took over- everything he knows about the team comes secondhand through one of his channels. That's how you have coke-head line coaches with prostitutes in team meeting rooms, bullying in the locker room and all the other fun culture stuff we've witnessed. There's no team in the front office and it all trickles downhill- I don't understand how that's surprising to anyone who has watched things unfold the past 5-8 years.
Why do you think guys like Campbell, Rizzi, Joseph and others didn't stick around? Why do you think a lot of top players wouldn't even consider Miami? It's not a secret that they've been dysfunctional for a while now in the front office.
all your conclusions are a huge stretch by any means. Campbell and Rizzi didn't stick around because they weren't seriously considered for the HC position - simple as that.
You saw Gase talking to other coaches and just assumed that meant he didn't do work.
Why are you disregarding that we won 7 games last year with a 3rd string offense...then calling Gase a scam for it?
And most of all, why do you think Gase had multiple head coaching interviews in other cities and was considered league-wide the best possible head coaching candidate? Or why he's now a GM as well? You're assuming all these minds that know football are wrong because you saw Gase talking with people during practice....but that doesn't make it true.
Gase was the 3rd choice on the list for the Jets. He was not considered league wide the best possible head coaching candidate.
They're not a stretch since I heard it firsthand from someone in the know...but I'm not going to argue that any longer here. As I've said about a dozen times in this thread already, we'll see where Miami and NY stands two years from now. We'll see if Falk is a decent QB or a complete bust (he's in NY now too). And we'll definitely see if Adam Gase can lead a team or not since he's now the GM.
Just to be clear, I didn't guess on anything I said in this thread...we let a solid coach walk because of front office politics and power moves. Maybe Miami will be better for it...I haven't said a word about the new regime...I just know Ross was played for a fool. NOBODY can promise a "perennial contender" without a ton of pieces in place, but that's what our new staff was hired on.
“You saw Gase talking to other coaches and just assumed that meant he didn't do work.”
Yeah your putting words into my mouth, he did much worse that that, any my original post describes that..your assumption of what I saw is completely inaccurate, but it shows me you will just keep protecting him for some off reason.
There is a huge difference between talking with coaches on the side during practice and being mia for four days on the actual practice field..
Dude was scared to put the whistle in his mouth and get on the field with his players
It’s all good Key, I think the guy is an offensive coordinator at best, you think he’s head coaching material..we disagree..
I think its somewhere in between what you guys are both saying.
He probably is actually a fairly solid X's and O's coach but it's also possible our teams suffered from poor preparations as well.
It's odd because a lot of our issues were ones that could have been masked with exactly that...good coaching and preparation.
The offensive line and pass rush are probably the two easiest areas to at least make average through good coaching and practice.
Having players ready to execute the plan is important as the plan itself.
My opinion of Gase is that he is basically an average coach and he can fix his problems. My biggest issue with him is his lack of accountability.
Any head coach that is ok with just calling plays isn’t head coach.
Why do we think he hired Greg Williams.. he ain’t stupid
He's the one who got the job! Doesn't that put him is 1st place?
Sure...but think about how easy a problem that is to fix. That is why I keep saying his lack of accountability keeps him from improving in areas he should be able to.
He can fix it with a big bandaid that looks like Greg Williams, but it doesn’t make me think he’s a head coach.
Keyfin, If Ross is not present and he is not an expert on football then he runs the big risk of letting the inmantes run the asylum. Which are my first two points on changing culture. If, as you say, the decision makers have gone into survival mode then that is a clear sign that the culture has failed. We’ve seen clear signs in the past with the Aponte-Philbin-Ireland bizarre love triangle, the what-the-hell is T-Baum doing circus, Gase flipping of Ross publicly. Ross isn’t an idiot, but he has been treating the Dolphins like it was his hobby not his job.
However I have been in organizations that are dysfunctional as a whole, but there have been pockets of well run units with good culture because the local level leader knows how to do their job. The most important thing in leadership is getting your followers to believe that by following you they will have more success. I just don’t think that Gase was a good enough coach to get that level of buy in from his players or coaching staff. My go to example is his decision to neglect the interior OL because “you don’t need to invest resources there in my system” when blind Freddy could see that Tannehill nees a solid OL in front of him if you wanted to succeed with him as your QB.
So if he changed his attitude and was out on the field with his guys running practice your opinion wouldn't change? That is what I mean.
That is honestly not fair if so and indicates a bias but I'm not 100% sure that is what you mean.
I listed the things in the original post as to why I feel he’s a fraud..kinda like hue Jackson as a head coach for three years..it happens, owners fall for frauds all the time, look at the GM position.
I don’t want a head coach who’s only focus is calling plays..I want discipline, leadership, executive decision making, presence, accountability through leadership, decent talent evaluator.
I don’t see Gase as those things.
From what I was told, Gase was told that he'd hire his own staff, draft his team, etc by Ross. He's a no-crap kinda guy that DEFINITELY rubs some people the wrong way and there were some in the front office that instantly hated him because of his arrogance (Gase would tell you he's not arrogant, he just doesn't have time to argue with people who don't understand football concepts....which is both arrogant and smart at the same time). He got push-back on several of his initial coaching hires, was blocked on drafting QB's, etc...but it was pretty much his show year one.
In year two, two critical things happened....RT went down in training camp AND Gase insisted on trading Ajayi. The Ajayi trade was unthinkable to some...who cares if he doesn't listen to the coach or run plays as designed? He had multiple 200 yard games. The fire Gase movement started internally before the season even started, but Ross didn't want to hear any of it...he was 100% team Gase. And of course, we had Jay freaking Cutler, who was Gase's 1st pick on 12 hours of notice. Others wanted Romo and honestly, they were probably right- nobody reached out though to see if interest was there since they were under the clock.
Once we traded Ajayi though, several in the front office decided Gase was insane and refused to work with him. We lost our D coordinator, Gase make multiple recommendations, and the suits said no. Gase went to Ross, the suits went to Ross, and the suits won. Then the front office traded Pouncey, which pissed Gase off to no end, and began to rebuild our line through veteran free agency instead of the draft. Good plan....until it wasn't. Gase said "F#$ 'em, I'll compete with what I have." Bodies kept dropping though because practices were a joke and conditioning was an issue. Loyalties were divided up and down the franchise and it's honestly amazing we won 7 games. I mean, completely amazing since everything was falling apart from the inside out.
I was told Gase gave Ross an ultimatum...many in the front office had to go. Coaches had to go too. The front office gave their own ultimatums though, Gase and several others have to go. From the fallout, I'm guessing you know who's voice won the day. I got the impression that Gase wasn't "fired" though and it was a mutual decision for him to walk. Gase felt a few tweaks (players and staff) was all they needed to be an instant playoff team, but he didn't want to work with that front office any longer.
The final straw? Ryan Tannehill. The front office insisted he was a top 5 talent, Gase said he could work with him, and ultimately everyone was happy. One Tannehill got hurt though, Gase wanted to draft someone the next season and convinced Ross it was the right move. But the front office spun it to Gase being incompetent and insisted RT was the guy. Gase didn't say he wasn't...but he wanted a quality guy on the bench and Moore had concussion tendencies. Well, we all know how RT ended 2018.....several great games then self-destruction...which wouldn't have been so painful if we had a rookie QB in the fold (we had Falk, but he was hurt). So the front office's narrative changed to blaming Gase for RT....then quickly shipped RT out of town. Forget the line debacle they created and everything else....it's the only thing they really had on a 7 win season with the Miami Miracle (there were honestly about 5 Miami Miracles that year, but who's counting...LOL).
I don't know this for a fact, but I believe Gase quit. Nobody said that to me- it's 100% my opinion and only Gase/Ross would know (since Ross wouldn't advertise that his head coach just quit....that would make filling front office positions that much harder and we still ended up going the internal route. I have a feeling interest wasn't very high on working with Ross and the current staff.....again, just my opinion though and not a fact.)
As I said, if I was wrong then Gase will crash and burn spectacularly in NY- but they hired him on the story I just shared with you. That's why they gave him even more oversight in NY to do things his way...a lot of folks were scratching their heads why Ross let Gase walk. Seven wins with that much dysfunction and injury was incredible. And for the record, I'm not saying Chris Grier was wrong...they just had completely different visions and were handicapping each other to move in the right direction. For example, neither Gase nor Ross wanted Minkah, but it was obviously the right pick looking back (and it would have been my pick as well). Ross wanted Lamar Jackson and I don't know who Gase wanted....it was likely an offensive player though.
Gase was going to be gone this year no matter what and maybe DJ is right....maybe he's just an offensive coordinator over his head. I took offense to this thread though because labeling him a scam is ridiculous- he was hired by Ross to do a job and did pretty well under the circumstances. If he would have drafted his QB in 2017 and got his D Coordinator in 2018, who knows how the past two years would have unfolded differently...it would have meant no Osweiller and Cutler anyway. The main takeaway here though is that the front office has just as much impact on the final score as the head coach- the blame never rests solely on the shoulders of one person. And Gase is probably the wrong guy to change a team's culture anyway, but when his hands are tied from above there's literally zero chance for success.
That's why I'll say again- seven wins was an absolute miracle and Gase probably deserved coach of the year. That may have been the most dysfunctional 7-9 team in league history.
Reading that.. maybe there IS hope. In other words, if people started quitting on Gase after he insisted on trading Ajayi, then maybe we have people smarter than I thought in the front office. That was just total insanity on Gase's part. A coach that can't adjust his system to incorporate really good players isn't a good coach.
And yes the dysfunction is mostly on Gase. Managerial success in any organization requires interpersonal skills and Gase doesn't have that. Can't just complain that others won't do what you want when you're the one acting like their opinions don't matter one iota. At some point people start fighting back or start quitting, and that's what happens when you have a guy like Gase. Put someone else with the exact same football plan but with better interpersonal skills in there and I guarantee you the dysfunction doesn't happen. With Gase it does.
Finally, not drafting a QB in 2017 can't be blamed on others. If Gase after his successful 2016 season absolutely insisted on drafting a QB to replace Tannehill, or at minimum to have a backup plan after Tannehill's injury, he no doubt would have gotten that. Really makes no sense to suggest otherwise after a surprisingly successful 10-6 season and a season ending injury to a starting QB. Besides, that part of your story makes no sense if it's really true that the front office turned on Gase after the Ajayi trade. This was before the Ajayi trade. So if this is really what you're hearing from some "source" then there's some bias going on in that person's reporting to you. No, Gase tied his fortunes to Tannehill and that was one of many reasons he failed.
Two things. Your own stats have showed that Gase tended to win a few games per year the stats didn't back up. We "stole" the Titans game, the Bears game, the 1st Bills game and the Pats game. Absolutely stole them in contests we played horrible on offense...yet created big plays down the stretch. That's ultimately what Gase was hired to do and he did it. But as far as players go, Wilson was the only one he got....the rest were rejected, almost as "payback" for Ajayi. The line was 100% on the front office and that played a big part in RT's self-destruction down the stretch.
Second, Gase was hired in large part for Ryan Tannehill. Ross implicitly trusted him...why else do you think Ross suddenly wanted Lamar Jackson? I'm not saying a QB would have made the difference. I forget which game it was when he threw the 2 pick-6's while getting hit...that's the front office's line (combined with RT just not being able to sense pressure). Gase did want a QB though and repeatedly asked for one. The only "yes" he received was Brock Osweiller and that's only because he was dirt cheap.
I get why many hate Gase...I really do. He was brought in though for what he does on the sidelines with a clipboard...and sometimes we HATED the conservative play calls (like running on 3rd and 18). But I also get why he did that when you have a QB who doesn't feel pressure and a line made up of 3rd stringers. It's really a no-win situation.....yet we won 7. We won freaking 7 games with complete chaos throughout the organization.
To me, that's not on Gase at all- the man did his job to the best of his abilities, and probably won more than any other coach could have under the circumstances (remember, we were predicted to be the worst team in the league last year with 3 wins). So I get the hate....I really do. But the man is the real deal if you can find a staff to work WITH HIM instead of always second guessing him. Just give the guy the tools he needs and get out of his way.
I do agree with you though- there's definitely hope ad I think we got a solid coach that's well respected. It's just a matter of time and rebuilding since we kicked so many top aging veterans to the curb.
KeyFin you absolutely have to stop pointing out that I estimated Gase won approximately 2 more games than expected given point differential without at the same time acknowledging that Gase was responsible for that abysmal point differential. I've said this repeatedly but you keep selectively pointing out only the positive part of the analysis. The more obvious to see negative part (that didn't require my analysis) was the abysmal production on offense and defense that led to the way below average point differential. THAT was on Gase too.
Same thing is true with the "complete chaos" statement. That was due to Gase and his "my way or the highway" personality. If it was due to Ross or someone else we would have had that same chaos with Sparano and Philbin, but we didn't. So once again, you can't argue that Gase did something positive given a negative situation he himself created without acknowledging that he created the negative situation.
Let me ask you this- is the goal to win the game or have great production? If RT has a 900 yard passing game in a loss, it's still a loss and that's all that matters. Yet if he has a 100 yard, 5 pick afternoon in a win.....the stats ABSOLUTELY don't matter. At the end of the day, there's only one stat in any sport that genuinely matters....a W or a L.
I also believe that you're looking at this entirely the wrong way- the numbers show we should have been far worse than seven wins last season. We've accepted that RT wasn't the guy. We've accepted that the free agency line didn't work out (mainly because they weren't on the field). I'm not celebrating horrible offensive stats by any means here, but if you're the worst offense in the league with 7 wins....how many wins would you have with the 16th ranked offense? That's how I process the information you're providing since the team can only get better with competent starters on the field.
I realize we don't agree here and that's fine- we just see different things from the exact same numbers.
W/L is all that matters in the end and in principle one could just look at that, but sample size effects will make analysis based on only 3 seasons a bit problematic. The 95% confidence interval for 23 wins out of 48 regular season games (using something called the Wilson method for binomial confidence intervals for those interested) is 0.345 to 0.617, meaning that Gase's W/L record alone is consistent with a career (long term) win% of anywhere from 34.5% to 61.7% which is a HUGE range. So using W/L alone is ideal if sample size is large but you can't say too much using ONLY that stat after 3 seasons, unless of course win% was so high or so low that the 95% confidence intervals exclude even an average coach.
So you look at other stats to get some idea of what kind of coach you have. To keep it simple, you should look at stats in order of highest correlation to win% and the first thing on that list is point differential, followed by offensive and defensive production (points per game). And without turning stuff into z-scores and such (which is needed for a proper analysis), we were close to the bottom in both offensive and defensive production, which was overall even worse than with Philbin and Sparano. That right there is a sign Gase is bad coach: most important stats other than win% he was abysmal on.
Only thing I added was to try and explain why the win% was close to average while the production was close to bottom of the barrel, and you can show it has to do with the close games record. In other words, if for some reason you tend to win more games than expected against opponents that are close to your ability level (close games) then you get what you saw with Gase. So Gase did something good in close games, and my "eyeball" analysis suggested an explanation: Gase's teams simply didn't quit like we saw with Philbin and Sparano (again, that's my opinion nothing else).
So there isn't just one set of numbers here. Yes, win% is the most important but it's inconclusive for long term analysis on its own. Still, based on win% alone Gase is average and I'm fine saying that. But go down to the next notch of most important stats and Gase is WAY below average. He just somehow made up for it in close games.
Looking at who was playing on the field, you feel that the Dolphins should have won more than 7 games?
I've already shown that the injury stats we have suggest that our win% was around expected. As I told you before though, we don't have the type of injury stats we'd really want (we need a good estimate of the impact on the field and there's no good way to do that right now), so all I can say is that the injury stats we have don't suggest we should have won way more or way less than we actually won.
I don’t think Ross understands the language of football like he understands the language of business. I think Tom Garfinkel was a good hire. Finding a football guru to run the show is hard because so many things have to go right to have success that even smart football people look like they are clueless a lot of the time.
I've told you I don't care. I said with who we had on the field, you expected more than 7 wins?
I keep saying this because some people continue to act as though 7 wins was bad. Obviously 7 wins isn't good...but in the context of the season and who we actually had on the field, who expected more than 7?
You're just being obtuse now. I already showed you two teams (with little research) that arguably did better with the injuries they had: Washington and Philly. And I don't care if you you don't care that I care about statistics. My expectations are based on data, so that's the answer you're going to get. So no, I don't see anything special in what Gase did with the players he had ESPECIALLY since he helped pick those players, injury or not.
You are being obtuse. I don't agree with your injury stats, as I don't think the limited stats we keep on them tell the whole story. Frankly another poster had shown before that losing 3 starting linemen dooms your season.
That being said, YOU aren't the only one pointing at 7 wins as a negative. So, I'm asking, I'd sometime feels that winning 7 games was underperforming, what do they think we should have won?