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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by jetssuck, Jan 29, 2011.
Ehhh, We All Thought Pat White Was Gonna Be Good For Us, He Was Just Too Small and Inaccurate, We Could Have Just Waited For Tim Tebow and Used One Of Those Former QB WRs Like Randle El Or I.Stanbeck
Well he's the only one left of Parcells/Lee/Henning so who else could take the blame
That doesn't sound much like an admission that he picked him though. Its really just sounds like he's accepting blame despite not feeling he deserves it.
Well then for some reason he sure did use a lot of "we's"
Now I don't believe Pat White was his guy...... but he was the GM and we were being told constantly that Ireland was the GM/grocery shopper. The buck stops with him..... and he explains that he was part of the process that brought Pat White here.
So if nothing else...... there should be no more of this "Jeff Ireland had no say in the Pat White pick" nonsense
I don't feel he had no say, but I also have no trouble believing that his say was, "I wouldn't pick him" and yet he ended up being the pick. There were several reports over the years that Parcells was given a few picks each year where he made the final call. So you can think its nonsense, but I disagree.
Well those several reports were here say, nothing straight out of anyone's mouth......meanwhile you have the man himself being asked point blank. Now I'm not saying it's entirely his fault and in fact I doubt Pat White was even his idea but he is the GM and we were told repeatedly by Parcells that it was Ireland's show to run so it makes perfect sense to think that Ireland was part of the process, especially when in this interview, he so much as admits that he was...
Also, this isn't a condemnation of Ireland....... I like the fact that someone is finally stepping forward and taking some heat. It's a breath of fresh air........ but it should also put an end to " Jeff Ireland did not want Pat White". Because there is absolutely no proof of that.
It should also put an end to all this speculation about who's responsible for what, when none of those speculations have any solid source. Which is my biggest problem with it..
To think anyone acted alone in Pat White is foolish. Several are to blame. At a minimum Ireland and Parcells.
The only reason it should put an end to it is that its mostly irrelevant now. But the statement from the "horses mouth" says nothing more than "you want to blame somebody, blame me". It says nothing about whether he deserved the blame. So this quote is no more of a solid source regarding who deserved the blame than the past ones you had an issue with. In fact, I feel this quote didn't address who deserved the blame at all. The question was point blank, but he dodged it, so it answers the question even less than the past sources.
Honestly, I really don't care. White was a bust, and I'm over it, as is the team.
David Lee was the one pushing for Pat White. Dan Henning pushed for Chad Henne. Neither was a Parcells pick but both were drafted due to the recommendations of Lee and Henning. As GM, you get feedback from different parties and have to determine who you will listen to or not listen to. I'm sure other coaches were pushing for different players with those picks. At the end of the day it was Ireland who pulled the trigger so it does fall on him and he will take the credit or blame for Henne and take the blame for White
It's not irrelevant at all....... just look at the reports from the media, the arguments on this forum. It's relevant because all we keep hearing is that well Ireland isn't responsible for this guy or that guy and that's why Ross cut him some slack and kept him.
He was part of the process as he was/is in all personnel decisions... and, the man ultimately in charge.
He's sitting right there and explaining the process......that he was a part of. And yet it's less credible than the rumors that have been tossed around? He's taking the heat because well, the buck stops with him......
Again, this isn't a condemnation of Ireland. In fact as of today my respect for Ireland has grown. It's about damn time someone stood up in this clown show, raised their hand and took some responsibility. I hope this new way of handing things continues, it would go along way in restoring some credibility with the fans...
The part in bold is the only thing we know for sure..... the rest is speculation. The reason that is important is that a lot of reports in the media and arguments on here are based on those speculations as tho they are proven facts...
Bottom line is that the best we can do in most cases is speculate and ppl should acknowledge that, rather than speak as tho it's a matter of fact..
I still remember the time I went to draftcountdown.com and they had us taking Pat White in the 2nd round. I shook my head in disgust and vowed to never return to that site or any other site that was dumb enough to think we'd make such a moronic draft pick. Oops. It's not often someone can be so right and so wrong all at the same time.
It's relevant because it's still affecting us,
The Past is the past. Look at the positives. The Dolphins have done great defensively draft wise. Lets hope they get it right this season and we will have a pretty good ball club.
We beat The Packers and the Jets , and Unofficially the Steelers. We were just a QB away from giving the Bears a run for their money as well. With everyone healthy , and some new blood on offense I'm really thinking we are not a bad as people make us out to be. Maybe even........SUPER good.
If you only want to discuss the positives about this team over the last 10 years, it's gonna be an empty forum.
The guy who was the GM during the Pat White pick is STILL the GM; that makes discussion of the pick still relevant. Will he make the same kind of stupid mistake again? Maybe one only half as stupid?
It's also relevant because now we STILL have to address a position we supposedly addressed with that pick - a very high pick at that. The kind we won't have again unless we stink up the league again next season.
And that's my big-picture concern with having kept Ireland and Sparano: STEWARDSHIP.
This doesn't say anything except that Ireland is a team player...he said if you want to blame someone, blame me....to me, that's taking one on the chin for the sake of the organization....I still think it was a Parcells move...
1. Yes, he's being a team player and that's a point I'm trying to make that seems to be flying over some ppl's heads.....that FINALLY one of the two guys in charge of things are actually taking some responsibility. Good, it's about damn time somebody did..
2. You think it was a Parcells move because of what? His past penchant for taking undersized players? Because you heard a passed along rumor? Not saying Parcells doesn't have any responsibility in it but at least 50 % of the arguments made on this forum since all of this went down were based on speculation and hearsay..... which generally doesn't cut it around here.
Ireland is trying to remain in the good graces of Parcells, so he is willing to accept the blame for this pick. Good for him, because he may need Parcells assistance in obtaining another job in the NFL after he is fired after next season. No matter who was responsible for the Pat White pick, Parcells or Ireland. The fact remains that this has to go down as one of the worst picks in the history of the Dolphins and possibly in the NFL. The man never completed one pass in the NFL and he was so bad that they continued to use Ronnie Brown in the Wildcat because White was not even able to run the few plays in this package.
LOL, so instead of people admitting they were wrong about Ireland NOT wanting White, people are instead calling this article a cover up or some BS.
He missed on Pat White big deal, gm's make bad picks every draft stop making excuses for him.
Eh, not concerned with the blame concerned with no more screw ups.
Because you're damn sure not shy about using it when it supports your arguments.......in fact you whip that hearsay out like it's your secret weapon. Seems it meant a lot more to ya before your boy Irish came out and told you different...
Is that really what you think Ireland did here JS?
Jimmy Johnson a legendary draft genuis, picked John Avery in the first rd...point is shnit happens.
Unlike you, I'm not partial to nor really all that against Ireland and have no reason to just want to assume anything or buy into anything without knowing it's absolutely factual...... that being said, I think Ireland and Parcells signed off on it and that's it. This pick was likely pushed by a combo of Henning, Lee and Sparano...... "The WC boys".
I think it's wrong to not put the blame on them collectively........3 of those 5 are now gone and the only one left to speak up is Ireland because the fist pumper damn sure isn't gonna admit to anything or do anything but talk in circles.
Ireland was part of the process that selected Pat White at #44 and he was basically left holding the bag for the rest of them.
And understand I'm not condemning him...... it's refreshing to see someone from this regime actually be open for a change. Hope it continues...
For me I see it as more of a deck clearing effort, Ireland said that simply because he is fully in charge now and there is no reason to let it linger, in fact Ireland has said some other things about the White selection on different programs that really do not need a rehash as it really doesn't matter save for they missed on a second rd pick that people in Miami had high hopes for and he wound up not doing very much at all.
What concerns me more, is the vaciliation and lack of committment to the WC or really to anything, yr #3 and the Sparanophins have no identity at all.
At the time we picked Pat White , we just went 11-5 on a soft schedule and we were hoping Henne was the Future. His thinking was different at the time. He was hoping Pat White would be an effective QB in WildCat situations that was working well for us at the time. He was supposed to be an addition to Henne.....not replace him. Its not fair to compare that to the QB he will possibly pick next and the same criteria and Context of that pick.
And I'm not looking for just positive posts , believe me! I just never saw was digging in the past can really acomplish. I mean we passed on Drew breeze twice, We picked Jake Long over Ryan......where do we draw the line? I don't think keep Ireland was such a bad move. But I was very dissapointed with the Saprano Fiassco. We were out coached during several games. The Players had a lot of negativity about him as well. He is such a safe boring coach. Maybe that would be OK if we won? I'm not sure he has what it takes unless he is looking at the things said about him and is willing to change.
He (and only he) has spoken one time and said anything remotely definitive and that was this admittance that he was part of the process....bottom line is that some of you (including the media) need to quit propping your arguments up with rumors and hearsay and acting like the rest of us are dense for not getting with the program. Until this circus came to town, such "facts" would be shot down immediately around here without a factual source.
As far as the WC, they killed it by a combination of failed OL signings and their cluster**** attempt at developing it. And what stands out to me is that they couldn't even add a passing element to a gimmick offense and some wonder why they couldn't develop Henne and our passing game. And even better, think Sparano has the ability to oversee the revamping of this offense and change his stripes..
You can go back and look at my posts here prior to White's first season and I was one of those that didn't want to just discard him.... but that was prior to finding out that he was useless in the WC and not going to be used in a multi purpose role......and instead they were spending all their time teaching him to be a pro set QB. I caught a lot of flack for saying he needed to be catching passes because the only danger he presented was in the open field....chastised for suggesting it regardless of the fact that guys like Kiper were saying the same thing and the big uproar about how scouts were pissed at his pro day because they expected him to run a route tree and all he would do is QB drills..... you can thank Mike Mayock and NFLN for pimping him so hard that he went from a mid round at best mutli purpose player to some "hot QB prospect".
So tell me this..... if Sparano couldn't handle overseeing the development of the wildcat and mis-managed 2 2nd QB's, how much stock do you put into him being able to somehow perform a miracle and get this offense turned around and oversee the implementation of this new and exciting offense we've been promised?
Not sure why anyone would ever believe anything Ireland says publicly.
Because it's so much better to just go along with rumors and hearsay, rather than an admittance of responsibility straight out of his mouth?
Interesting, has anyone actually said you were dense?
Or Ronnie B ran out of gas around the same time Williams did?
You were correct, have a cookie.
Now wait a minute their cowboy, you were just going on and on about how pat white was not a Qb, then you are now saying he was a Qb who was just not developed, do not mind the told ya so's just do be consistent won't you?
As for Henne, eh, 6 int's that were not neccessarily on him, could be the guy just doesn't have what it takes, which does happen frequently in the NFL, should we not even bother then whine, *****, moan, about "trade everything to move up and draft a QB!!!!"
Please, any objective look at the 2010 Dolphins season points out the glaring weaknesses in the running game, as in it collapsed, first thing first fix the running attack and I know Sparano can manage it.
Well you and a few others keep acting like you can't understand why some of us can't just "feel" the truth of all the hearsay....;p
While neither looked as good as the previous year, having the interior O line shoved in your face by the time you get the hand off, does up the difficulty factor a little. If you want to ***** about the running game, ***** about Sparano's love affair with Cobbs and why he's on the roster every year and not some other, much faster back with more upside.
I wasn't just right......you were wrong. So please, keep the cookie as a consolation prize
Never said he was a QB that could be or should be developed, solely as a QB. However his position and what he was drafted as, was QB. And getting no value out of him what so ever or trying to use him in any other role, was deff mis-management. Therefore he was a mis-managed QB..
No I don't.......I'm not impressed with any of the top prospects, available FA's or possible trade possibilities and I'd rather not waste any resources and set us back any further.......and I've seen enough of Sparano's QB developing skills to form the opinion that we should just force him to ride Henne and use our resources to upgrade the OL and skill positions like RB, TE and a speedy wideout..
I agree that the running game vanished into thin air...... but I also think Sparano helped it vanish and why do you think he can manage it when he can't even manage 3 time outs a half?
Was he not overseeing an offense that as you said, failed to achieve any kind of identity in 3 years? But now for some reason he's gonna be able to go back to the chalkboard and come up with something new and exciting?
I think that's based solely on wishful thinking and we as fans should be in "show me" mode by now.....and very, very skeptical.
And he is in no way taking the blame for anything there, no matter what he "said".
I cant figure out if I would do Rachel Nichols or not....why that woman cant get a good hair dye job somewhere is beyond me.. sometimes she looks like a dude with a bad wig no?
this post scare me a bit..a lot of it is true..
Meh....Solid 6. I'd hit it.
I think perhaps you have the wrong idea as to what Hearsay is JS..
With you there on Cobbs, like Joe Theisman doing color commentary the mystery of Pat Cobbs remaining on the roster needs some Mtythbusters investigatory time.
Do agree with Sparano in that a good running back will break long plays and make the first guy miss more often than not, neither Ronnie or Ricky did so in 2010, we need some new blood at runningback but at least Sparano has said as much.
Hmm, when it is news that I'm wrong only means you have not paid very much attention to what I've written over the yrs..
Welll disagree, it means they screwed the pooch while evaluating him, the fact that he couldn't play at all, in any role, then let's not forget his tweet last spring about playing baseball over moving to Wr, as he never moved to Wr and is playing baseball.
But either way, if he were a Wr if that is what one believes saying he wasn't developed as a Qb appears to be one trying to have things both ways. For my part I thought he should have been developed as a running back and that never happened either so he was pretty much the most complete bust of a #2 pick since..Eddie Moore? But I think Moore played more than White.
Honestly, IDK, I think the whole "Qb Development" stuff is overblown as Henne had Chadwick as a Qb coach and even if those 6 int's became 3 int's it would not have made a huge impact on Henne's season, Henne cannot hit on deep passes maybe that was a product of his knee cap dislocation (that is what the optimist is saying). But on the whole I do agree if Henne is to improve, if the team is to improve Job #1 is to fix the running game.
Hmm, was that an issue in 2010? That I am not sure of as I can recall 3 incidents in 2010 that were just plain bad, but how much of that was Chad Henne? The Bills game was not a shining moment but Henne was throwing checkdown passes, the Steelers game was another goat humping, but to me Henne throwing to Ronnie B short of the first down was kind of emblematic of what he was like in 10, so to me if Daboll simply calls for routes that actually go into the endzone, or go past the first down market, will be an improvement.
The times Henne did look good he was working with 3 wr's but the running back in that formation has to have a different skillset than Ricky W and maybe a 29yr old Ronnie. But overall, sure we have the talent at Wr to run that style of offense.
Well, agree with the skepticism at this point in time, he did not hire Mike Martz and Steve Crosby he hired 2 guys whose units finished in the bottom 10% of the NFL to ride herd on Special Teams and on the Offense, we need an upgrade on talent on offense and we need more of a commitment to Special Teams being a net plus unit that much is obvious.
For me, I think a good start would be a kickoff specialist being acquired as Carpenter's lack of touchbacks puts us at a serious disadvantage in every game we play.
Just b/c some people want to talk about who is to blame, it does not make it relevant in regards to what needs to be done in the future. Since that's my focus, who is to blame for the White pick is irrelevant to me. And this is not a matter of defending or not defending Ireland or of being right or not. The quote that started this thread was clearly Ireland saying, "go ahead blame me if you need to blame someone", but it also said nothing about whether he deserved the blame or not. For anybody who still cares about who to blame it still comes down to distilling the information that has come out before and making your own judgment. This additional statement by Ireland added nothing to what was known before. I've heard from enough disparate sources to believe that the people who were pushing for White were, Parcells, Lee and Henning. And despite Ireland's GM title, I have no doubt that if Parcells wanted a player enough, then that player would be picked.