In Hindsight do you still trade Marshall for Eggnew and a 3rd rounder?

what

 

Marshall's TD numbers were atrocious. Especially for what he is considered by many on here.

Hartline's TD numbers are also atrocious. I am not defending Hartline. I'm saying neither WR produced at a level we need. Marshall's output here doesn't and didn't make us better. Neither does Hartline's.

If you complain about Hartline's lack of TDs, then you have to realize just how bad Marshall's TD numbers were here.

 

I didn't want Marshall traded and said so when it happened. But IMO this is the consequence of the coaching turnover. I know that the broken records on here want to just keep saying it's Ireland's fault, but I think the primary issue is lack of continuity. A GM should try to build the kind of team that the coach wants, that suits his style. When that style changes then the GM is basically starting over. I think Ireland had no choice but to trade Marshall b/c he didn't want to go through another coaching change and rookie QB and he didn't fit what Philbin wanted. That leaves the GM with no option but to trade him otherwise he's just working against the coach (which never works). I do believe that they finally have the coach/QB combo that can get it done. The key now is continuity in those two positions. As for the GM, I believe that Ireland is a top half GM. There are a ton of choices I disagreed with or that turned out to be poor, but there have also been some very good choices. I think that in general his talent assessment is better than most. I don't think GM continuity is as important overall. Meaning that it wouldn't mean starting over if there was a change there as long as the new GM can/will work with Philbin/RT and isn't trying to get his own guys in there. I just don't believe the odds are all that good that we would get a better GM and the odds are pretty high that we'd get a worse one. And there's also the possibility that the new GM and Philbin won't mesh. Either way though, the key will be how RT and Philbin develop. If they are good then Ireland or another GM will probably look good. If they're bad then Ireland or any other GM will look bad.

 

What? Calm, reasoned appraisal?

This doesn't work! We need a scapegoat!

 

I hate to tell you this, but every one of those Yards Per Target numbers are bigger. That's better, meaning they clearly improved.

What exactly is the basis for your argument here? Either you don't understand how math works, or your strategy is to apparently involves entirely contradicting your basic points.

 

How do you figure Ireland is a top half GM? Based on what, exactly?

Who do you think is demonstrably worse than him?

 

Are you using a calculator that functions on concepts of math not previously discovered? Like is this a math that considers the number 1 to be infinite because its counts parallel universes?

 

Yeah a scapegoat.

When your problem is not enough good players it's scapegoating to suggest the guy in charge of acquiring your players might be a problem.

I hope Ireland never offers you a dixie cup full of kool-aid

 

Do you really expect him to take the time to do an objective analysis of that and present it amidst this "burn Ireland at the stake!" environment? Do you suppose he's a masochist?

Listen, people have their minds made up about this, and they ain't changing, I don't care what you present.

 

We could go round and round about whether that's truly the case, and if so, how much Ireland is responsible, and in the end neither one of us would really know the whole truth of the matter, though I suspect one of us would certainly act like he does.

 

Equally embarrassing is that Marlon Moore only just eclipsed Legedu Naanee in snap counts, when Legedu Naanee was cut after Week 4.

 

I am gonna blow your mind with my mathematical wizardry.

We are gonna use the WR corp. only since adding Fasano only helps my argument further, so I will handicap myself by allowing for Hartline and Bess to dominate the usage rate at the position.

In 2011:

Hartline accounted for 20.7% of the usage and provided 23.6% of the production.
Bess accounted for 30.1% of the usage and provided 23.1% of the production.

In 2012:

Hartline is accounting for 46.2% of the usage and is providing 49.8% of the production.
Bess is accounting for 45.5% of the usage and is providing 41.8% of the production.

If you increase both player's usage to 2012 levels, you come up with these numbers for a 16 game season based on 2011 production:

Hartline: 78 Catches 1152 Yards
Bess: 76 Catches 969 Yards

Those two players are currently on pace for this:

Hartline 76 Catches 1138 Yards
Bess: 75 Catches 957 Yards

There ya go.

Oh and BTW, I get paid for this.

 

I don't act like I know anything that isn't public knowledge.

Ireland has been here for 5 years as the GM. I've seen nothing that would indicate that he didn't either make all the decisions or that he was not in agreement with Parcells on all the decisions that were made.

At the very least, Parcells has basically been gone since 2010, when he vacated his office at the facility. Since then the team has not appreciably improved. The Marshall trade ended up being a disaster. The trade down following the Marshall trade I think has proven unwise. The entire 2011 draft sans Pouncey looks like a disaster (and even Pouncey is only a center)

So it seems to me that given all the transactions over the last 3 off seasons that Ireland has done a poor job. And considering his invovlement in previous poor off seasons, however you want to debate his invovlement is up to you, I believe is grounds for his dismissal.

 

I know its en vogue to pick out random anecdotes about the Dolphins and claim them to be embarrassing, but do you realize the Texans FB has 3X as many receptions as the Texans' #3 WR? Is that embarrassing as well?

 

it is when you take into account the usage rate of Arian Foster.

 

How so? Because Foster gets more targets than their FB? How is that different when Reggie Bush is getting more targets than the Dolphins' FB?

 

The Dolphins FB has 7 catches. The Texans FB, James Casey, has 30 catches. So when you provide context like that, no it's not embarrassing for the Texans.

 

There's nothing embarassing about that in itself. There have been great, SB-winning offenses in which the FB led the team in receiving, ahead of both starting WRs. There have been a lot of great teams and great offenses on which the FB had more catches than the No. 2 and No. 3 WR. The problem here is that he has done it with just 7 catches.

 

Because Arian Foster gets more touches than anybody.

 

Question: Was this in the last 20 years?

 

Right, its embarrassing when you provide a bunch of qualifiers after the fact.

 

Once again, all those numbers are bigger than the year before, and don't in any sense match with the idea that they are not exceeding their outputs from the year before, are not as productive, or many of the other statements you've made.

I can't imagine anyone else on this message board directly contradicting their own arguments, and then getting cocky about it. Breathtaking.

 

He's been targeted 50 times. Reggie Bush has been targeted 41 times.

 

Sorry, I assume that everyone here has access to the internet and can see for themselves how many catches the Dolphins Fullback has.

 

can you read?

The projected numbers are SMALLER. pay attention.

 

But you have access to the internet as well and can see how many catches the Texans' fullbacks have?

 

Here, read it again. then explain to me how 76 is more than 78, 1138, is more than 1152, etc...

 

I see your straw man, yes.

 

In general, a GM that hits on 50% is a superstar. A good GM hits on one maybe two starters an off-season is very good. That won't be consistent of course. He'll hit on three one year and none the next. A GM dealing with coaching changes or philosophy changes will have those numbers slashed just b/c even if he adds talent, it might not be the r"right" talent for the new regime/philosophy. I would say that the selections of Wake, Bush, Dansby, Bess, Pouncey, Marshall, Jones, RT, Starks, Moore, Hartline, and others represented good talent assessments and fits for the current regime/philosophy. If we'd had the right coach/QB in place at the beginning and continuity then I believe the overall talent would look pretty good. I don't believe Ireland had any input on the coach until Philbin and I don't think the QB options were very good outside of maybe Ryan, whom most admit was Ireland's top choice over Long.

 

BTW, those numbers are only for the passing game. It does not account for the running game, which would also help my argument.

 

There is no strawman. You made the statement.

 

I'm talking about the productivity numbers. For your point to make any sense whatsoever, they would be less efficient scaled up in a starting role.

So wait, let me get this straight... You're projecting stats for a season that has already finished, and we already know the results for? Despite the fact, you know, that's stupid and the dozens of other mitigating circumstances including but not limited to the reality, different offenses, etc. and so on.

And you're using an almost entirely identical set of numbers to somehow suggest...What? That they're notably less productive?

And you're paid to do this?

 

The ones where the FB led the team in receptions were in the 80s. But there have been SB-winning teams in the last 20 years where the FB had more catches than the No. 2 receiver and/or No. 3 receiver. The point is that there is nothing inherently bad about having a FB with a lot of catches.

 

No. I am projecting stats for THIS CURRENT SEASON. Last season is already done. This one has 13 games in it.

Maybe I am wrong, and you are dense, and not trolling.

 

and they are less productive, while getting a higher usage.......why?

maybe we are making progress? maybe? maybe?

I doubt it.

 

I made the statement, yes. The Dolphins FB has 7 catches. Marlon Moore has 4 catches.

Not sure what the Texans fullback (who we both know isn't a fullback in the classic sense, the way Houston uses him) has to do with what we're discussing.

 

Which numbers?

The actual production numbers or the "projected" numbers?

I mean I got to ask, why you think projected numbers matter more than numbers that represent what actually happened. Its one thing to project numbers for a given period that hasn't happened yet, (like this season) but to project numbers for a time period done and in the books, makes no sense. That's kind of like buying two scratch off tickets, winning a dollar on one, and nothing on the other, and saying you just won $2.

 

I'm not disagreeing with your premise at all. But he has 7 catches.

 

Brian Hartline and Davone Bess played 16 games in 2011. They had actual results. You can look them up, with Google. Those are not those results. You are projecting them for a theoretical 2011, which is a fundamentally dumb premise.