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In discussing Moreno / Miller

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by SICK, Aug 27, 2014.

  1. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    I found this very interesting in B Jacksons Buzz.

    So Miller averaged .3 yards less than Moreno overall. Averaged .1 MORE yards after contact, and broke 1 less tackles overall in 64 LESS carries.

    Why is there some sort of stigma that Miller can't break tackles, yet Moreno can?!



    Side note on other running backs:

    Not even money coming into play, I hope we keep Williams.....higher ceiling. We know what we have (and don't have) in Thomas.
     
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  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would like to see one game with Thomas's skillset in this scheme, his main strength is the ability to cut on a dime.
     
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  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I'll tell you what, that Williams really looked good...explosive, hard to tackle and really high upside. Even the 4th string RB (can't remember his name, but it's a strange one) looked solid on that 50 yard run...he reminded me more of the prototypical fullback the way he plowed over people and made his own holes.

    I'm not against Thomas making the roster because he has improved each year, but I just don't think he's good enough to challenge Williams. I read elsewhere that the Dolphins have told him that this Thursday's game is essentially a job interview...if he looks good then he's in. So expect a big night for him, but I still think Williams edges him out on ability alone. When you have a 1st year and a 3rd year that look equal on paper, it's almost crazy not to stay with the rookie for the long-term gains.
     
  4. Larry Little

    Larry Little Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Their stats from last season are very similar, but I think Moreno will be head-and-shoulders better than Miller in a direct competition in the same offense. We'll see how that works out.

    As far as Daniel Thomas goes... it's possible he finds a niche in Lazor's zone read run game, but, I'm not counting on it. He's been consistently underwhelming. I'll be surprised if he makes the team this year. Williams is a better runner, and if there's 4 RBs that make the roster this season, I'd keep Thigpen over Thomas because of his versatility.
     
  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Lamar Miller's tackle breaking percentage is low.

    It just so happens that Knowshon Moreno's was also low.

    Where I don't agree with the original poster is where he claims that people are getting on Lamar Miller for his lack of broken tackles, while holding Knowshon Moreno up as a model for that. I have not seen that. If people have been holding Knowshon's tackle-breaking ability up as some great thing, that's inaccurate.
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Honestly I believe Orleans Darkwa has outperformed Damien Williams this preseason...if you really stack them up carry for carry and look at the underlying skill set displayed by both players on each carry and in each respective situation.

    Orleans Darkwa has 14 carries for 80 yards and a TD, and also has 6 catches for 45 yards with a 2-point conversion.
    Damien Williams has 24 carries for 55 yards and 2 TDs, and also 4 catches for 22 yards.

    Of course I'm not saying it's that simple, 5.7 YPC versus 2.3 YPC.

    Darkwa had nice runs of 8 and 13 yards brought back by penalty. He had two separate -4 yard losses and a -2 yard loss on runs where he was hit because of blown blocks. He had 1 run for 1 yard inside the 5 yard line that shouldn't be held against him. He had a 53 yard run that has the potential to skew his stats. Typically capping those gains at 15 yards will give you a better idea of how the player did on a snap for snap basis.

    Williams had a 5 yard run brought back by penalty, and two separate -5 yard losses on runs where he was hit because of blown blocks. He also had runs of 2 yards, and two separate 1 yard runs from inside the opponent's 5 yard line which shouldn't necessarily be counted against him. He had a 20 yard run that has the potential to skew his stats.

    Adjust for these things with both players and you've got 12 carries for 72 yards for Orleans Darkwa (6.0 YPC). Mind you, this is taking away his 53 yard run and capping that gain at only 15 yards...a very impactful adjustment. Without that cap we're talking 110 yards on 12 carries.

    Adjust Damien Williams in the same manner and you've got 20 carries for 61 yards (3.1 YPC).

    Simple fact of the matter is Orleans Darkwa has had more running success. If you want to explain that by talking about the offensive lines or whatever, you're free to it...but I'm not sure how valid all that is.
     
  7. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    Take the stats and shove it. Moreno ran with an attitude that Miller doesn't possess. I'm sold. He kept his legs churning, hit the hole without hesitation, and moved the chains multiple times. I don't even care if moreno plays game 4. Hes the starter, imo.
     
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  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the 4.0 average for miller happened most when we ran the ball in very untraditional down and distances, and when we needed to run the ball, not so good.
     
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  9. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Honestly I haven't been overly impressed with Darkwa as a runner. Well maybe that isn't fair because I think he's better than Daniel Thomas and has looked good.

    However I feel like Williams has looked quicker, more elisive, faster and about as powerful. I'd have to look at each play over again to jydge instincts however.

    I don't think Williams is head and shoulders above Darkwa I just see more raw potential. Just my two cents.
     
  10. Bofin

    Bofin Member

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    I thought Moreno ran like a guy who has been hurt and benched before, both of which have happened to him. Yes he ran with an attitude. Ran like he knows his season, even career can be over with the next hit/play, bam, he's done. Also like he knows if he doesn't perform then the next guy will be brought in to replace him. These are both lessons learned through his personal experences,,, could it rub off on Daniel Thomas?? Prolly not, but maybe.
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'd like to see more than one game of Moreno's before I conclude anything here. He looked good but on one run he was set up extremely well and on a few others I thought he chose the wrong hole and got a bit lucky.
     
  12. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Agreed about needing more than one game. Personally I try not to get overly excited about anything good or bad until it becomes at least a small trend rather than single game.
     
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  13. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Darkwa has looked good but some of his stats have come later in the game when he is going against guys who will be flipping burgers in a few weeks.
     
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  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Same is true of Damien Williams. Also should be noted that Orleans Darkwa had guys blocking for him that will be joining those defenders in the burger flipping line.
     
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  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Darkwa, in my opinion, is better at both finding and hitting the holes than Williams.

    Plus the fact that Darkwa isn't quick, doesn't do the stupid thing where he bounces outside the hole and tries to bounce it outside.

    Darkwa has impressed me during the last two preseason games.
     
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  16. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Man, everyone has a real disdain for burger flippers. Sorry, to any burger flippers out there. I love me some cheeseburgers and I need someone to flip them, so flip away.
     
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  17. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Really? Moreno was in a far better situation in Denver....6 in the box....and had similar numbers to Miller who was behind one of the worst offensive lines in NFL history.
     
  18. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Pundits and posters have talked about Moreno coming in and providing more physical running power, and tackle breaking than Miller. I see constantly Millers YAC being brought into the equation from local beat and national guys.
     
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Again, I've not seen that. I must not be reading/hearing the same things as you.
     
  20. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    ok...
     
  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I think his vision is better than Miller's.
     
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  22. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    quick google search got me fox sports:

    http://www.foxsports.com/florida/st...wshon-moreno-makes-impression-in-debut-082314

    And then local:

    The bolded both suggests hes more physical, he says he brings physicality, when Miller has the same numbers...and thats in a down year for Miller and the best year of his career for Moreno...

    It's been mentioned before, and it will again...how Moreno brings some sort of physicality that the Dolphins are lacking before him, when the numbers suggest that's just not true.
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You're citing a bunch of stuff written after a game in which he did indeed break tackles and get yards after contact. Those statements are describing what he did in that game. Accurately. Philbin's description of Moreno as having broken "some" tackles last year is hardly a declaration that Moreno was a big after contact guy in Denver. Otherwise the only declaration that touches on previous work is that of Moreno himself, and I would certainly hope he views himself to be a physical runner even if his previous history doesn't suggest it.
     
  24. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm wondering why nobody would touch Moreno with a ten foot pole in the offseason. I'll reserve judgment until I see some real action.
     
  25. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Wrong. His ability to break tackles was on display saturday. That is stating he has those abilities regardless of game. Thats like saying "Supermans ability to fly happened yesterday when he flew off a building"....thats not suggesting he can only fly then, it's saying he has the power to fly, and used it in this specific situation. Then that same article mentions he possesses abilities that is unmatched on our roster. Meaning Miller can't do what he did one time in his entire career. (have a good season).

    The next article brings up Millers bad YAC this preseason then asks if Moreno can be the savior we need to right that wrong. (Which was written before Saturdays game btw)....

    Phillbin then purposely mentioning him breaking tackles last year, and obviously signing him to a contract to compete with Lamar Miller is a good inclination they brought him in to add that dynamic to this offense.

    How can you magically read between these non-existent lines and "guess" what ****ing coach said some snide remark to a player based on one sources comment....yet you refuse to put the pieces together here, or at least slightly acknowledge it, by flat refusing to think that ANYONE is talking about it, and I made up this discussion?
     
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  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Because he does have those abilities. He broke 21 tackles last year. He has the ability to break tackles. Nobody stated that he had better ability to do this than other starting tailbacks in the NFL. His ability to break tackles was indeed on display in this game. But that ability is not generally good compared with other NFL starters.

    Indeed he may have abilities that are unmatched on the roster. Most often I have seen those abilities cited as pass protection and ability to catch balls out of the backfield. Some have even extended that to better vision. Haven't seen it proposed that he also has better ability to break tackles, until now.

    How does that in any way purport that Knowshon Moreno had been a big tackle breaker in Denver?

    Philbin was asked about him breaking tackles. So he commented on him breaking tackles in Denver. He didn't say he was better than Lamar Miller at it, or that he is better than average. He said he's broken some tackles before, so breaking some tackles now isn't that much of a surprise.

    As for signing him, the reasons for that have been stated ad nauseum. They've been repeated as a mantra over and over again. He blocks well. He can do things in the passing game. He's more experienced. Nothing about tackle breaking or yards after contact.

    No need to flip out or get immature about this.
     
  27. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I simply cannot abide Thomas another year. I think he has to go with the potential of DW2 and Darkwa. I'd prefer: Moreno; Miller; D.Williams; Darkwa. I think we know what Thomas is and it's not going to be anything special. At least with the younger players there is potential.
     
  28. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I thought Moreno ran better Saturday night than I saw him run all of last year in Denver (except in one game against the Pats but even then he was hardly touched til he was 10 yards downfield because the Pats were just completely giving away the run to stop Peyton).

    Moreno has features that Miller does not (pass receiving; pass blocking) and I think he's a slightly better runner.

    But, if you take away the Pats game, Moreno's average was - if I recall correctly - just under 4.0. That's not a great average. However, hopefully he runs all year like he did last week. We'll be okay if he does.
     
  29. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I would like to see Thomas sitting in the stands, not a fan at all.
     
  30. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    I am neither flipping out nor being immature, cussing is my nature :wink2:

    Anyways, I just took it personal that A) you couldn't even quote me with your original response, you just said "OP" like you're talking to thin air, or I didn't exist. and B) you suggest I am making up 100% that Moreno Vs Miller in regards to yards after contact, or a more physical presence in the run game in the media, or discussions on this message board.

    I have seen it. I have read it. The announcers for the Cowboys feed on Saturday mentioned specifically that the Dolphins are hoping Moreno provides a more physical presence in the run game than last year. Barry Jackson in the quote I originally quoted, made sure to reference the specifics of yards after contact, and broken tackles and compared both runners. He did not compare passes caught, yards after catch, or pass blocking. He compared them in Yards after contact, and broken tackles. Why? Because there is a reason for him to post said numbers, to give information to fans either asking for it, or discussing it in other venues.

    You don't randomly mention "Tannehill throws for a better completion percentage in the 3rd quarter than Moore" just for S.A.G.....you do it because someone asked what their comparisons were, or its a topic of discussion.
     
  31. jcliving

    jcliving Active Member

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    I expect fewer tackle for loss with Moreno. It will still happen, but I expect the frequency will be less. Reducing TFL is very important for staying ahead of the chains.
     
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  32. Limbo

    Limbo Mad Stillz

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    People keep expecting Miller to be something he's not. Last season he had the perfect chance to be the man. He squandered it. First two games of preseason in this new system he wasn't good. Moreno comes in and looks worlds better, imo. Moreno looked like a starting-caliber RB. He has been a successful starting RB. Miller has never had that look, and he's never been a quality lead back. He's a change-of-pace guy who lacks vision and gets dropped for no/negative yards far too often.

    It's not so much broken tackles as it is fighting through contact, imo. Moreno will drive and push guys for another couple yards while Miller just kind of flops.

    Honestly I don't think Miller would get snaps on most other teams.
     
  33. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I can't believe there's even a comparison or a debate going on here about Moreno and Miller and who is better. Wow.
     
  34. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Moreno spelled by Williams/Darkwa.
     
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  35. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Yo, SICK, you doing the radio show this season?
     
  36. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    Darkwa would be lucky to make practice squad. He has done nothing special.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Disagree
     
  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    The longest run of the season is fairly special. Heck, the longest run of the past 2 seasons, for that matter.
     
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  39. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    jk no I am not
     
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  40. RickyBobby

    RickyBobby VIP DIY

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    On which part?
     

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