The concept of a "starter" is just an outdated way of thinking DJ. Again, if the opposing offense opens up with 3WRs... and your defense opens up with a nickel package. Is your "base starting" defense a nickel defense? Is your #3 CB now a "starter" in that scenario? The 3 DEs would be on the field together for the majority of the defensive snaps (including a good chunk of 1st down snaps)... and with the math I displayed... you can get all 3 in the top 10 amount of snaps taken for their position. Thats what matters...
Would you use one of your starting two corners as the nickel corner?, there's a reason they are your starting corners.. It's not about getting close to the same amount of reps over the long run. You have starters, you have specialists.. Adapting the scheme to fit your players, not the other way around.. I just don't agree Nasty..because of both players versatility, Dion and Vern should be both in base and nickel, normal rest should be their only obstacle.
But they WOULD be both in base and nickel (nickel being MUCH more important)... But ok... so, you basically want a completely redesigned defense where you can say our "base" uses all 3 of the players. Question... in this defense that's been redesigned around using these 3 players in its base package (one that uses a front 7 an only 4 DBs that way it is considered a base and not a nickel)... what happens when you want to rest one of them? No player on the roster has the abilities to play like those 3 that can sub in, in that situation? Or... what if, god forbid... one of them gets hurt? Now you've completely redesigned your defense around having these 3 guys and now you only have 2. Do you now scrap the entire defensive scheme mid-season? Having them all considered "starters" is irrelevant... and is an outdated way of thinking b/c really... base defenses these days are nickel packages more than anything... but the media is slow to adapt to the times in terms of distinguishing defenses (that and they're lazy b/c it's easier to just slap on a label like 3-4 defense and move on. And they don't feel like the average consumer knows enough or cares enough for them to dive deeper). They're much more complex than back in the day, and almost all defenses are some sort of hybrid scheme at this point. ZERO teams run 43 on first down, 43 on 2nd down, and nickle/dime on third down like they did 20 years ago. Don't get locked into that type of thinking...
The short and simple answer to creating a base defense that incorporates Wake, OV, and Dion Jordan is having Dion Jordan play SAM LB. But, unlike Von Miller's role in Denver, that's not really how Miami plays their LB. Miami's SAM LB last year, Koa Misi, is the best run-defender of any of the LBs on the roster. Dion Jordan is far away from being that good at stopping the run. He's an athletic freak, but his strength at the POA, especially last year, leaves a lot to be desired. You'd also essentially be bastardizing him because if you really want to look at how this scheme has used SAM LBs over the years, more often then not, they're coverage types - Manny Lawson types. Dion Jordan's greatest asset is going to end up being pass-rushing and that's why Miami's coaching staff wants to concentrate him as a DE, IMO. I think ultimately, the best case scenario involving these three, assuming Cameron Wake stays healthy and productive for a good number of years moving forward is that he stays constant at LDE, and Dion Jordan ends up being the 3-down player over Olivier Vernon. To do that, Jordan's got to improve his run defense, and that's simply something we've yet to see and won't see until there are actual games being played. That's just a fact. If/when that does happen, you'll have two lethal pass-rushers at DE and a guy that can play two-thirds of your snaps in Olivier Vernon who can not only play either DE spot, but can also do some things standing up, rushing over the guard, etc. AND, it allows you to be flexible with Dion Jordan when you want to be (3rd downs, based on what Joe Philbin has said in this training camp). Ultimately, to me, the progression of Dion Jordan's ability to set the edge and play the run, is going to be the deciding factor on if/when this season he overtakes Olivier Vernon. Vernon is a good player, and does a lot of different thinks pretty well, but I don't think he's exceptional in any one regard. He's never going to be a Cameron Wake when it comes to rushing the passer (Yes, I know he had more sacks than Wake, but I think that's more a product of him hustling than it is him being an outright pass-rushing threat). He's never going to be a Kevin Carter when it comes to stopping the run. He's just a good, solid player. And, if you want a direct correlation to Cincinnati's defense, Olivier Vernon is a supped-up version of Wallace Gilberry. If he becomes more than that, that's gravy, but I think Dion Jordan's your guy with a stratospheric, Cameron Wake with benefits (coverage, blitzing, ability to be moved all over) type ceiling, not Olivier Vernon. Dion Jordan's still got to go out and develop into that though. And that's not to slight OV, he's the starter at this point until Dion Jordan can improve his run defense.
Looking at play counts, Jordan (625) is mirroring Vernon's rookie year (701), and that model seems to work for Coyle "Prove it on Special Teams" seems to be the mantra as Jordan played 63% of all ST snaps, and rookie OV 60%. Daresay, OV did make game changing plays on ST and was awarded with 100 extra snaps on defense (432 to 330). Then again, maybe those 100 snaps reflect the injury, or the more crowded roster this year. Still, Dion Jordan had the third most total snaps of any DE this year, and this may be a shocker - he only had 64 less snaps than Cameron Wake at #2. Last year Wake only played 59.5% of defensive snaps, way down from 81.5% in 2012. Knock on wood, we may never see 81.5% again. Perhaps a rotation is for the benefit of keeping Wake fresh so he doesn't miss games. And the rotation can become starters in a blink. However, if Wake goes down, we probably turn to Shelby as a more similar replacement; he saw his defensive snaps go from 218 in 2012 to 438 in 2013 in those very circumstances. And I think there's the rub, is Derrick Shelby 100 snaps better than Dion Jordan on defense? No... but situationally is a different question. Ultimately I agree with getting Dion on the field more, but I disagree with the notion that last years handling of him was a mistake. Shelby played well last year, and OV is proving to be the Jared Odrick of the DEs, and Wake is Wake while we have him, so there's no need to rush him into situations where there is a better option. Playing to his strengths, many of us want to see him take snaps from Wheeler and Ellerbe, who both had over a 1000 last year.
Yes the situation is much more complex than simply finding a way to have all of these guys start. Jordan may ultimately be a better OLB than wheeler or whoever we have out there but how much would that effect his development as a DE? And his value even as a situational DE still may be higher than his value as a full time SOLB. You can begrudge the coaching staff for asking him to train as a DE instead of a LB but I don't think thats fair. You don't trade up to take a SOLB at 3 overall, obviously the plan all along was to play him at DE, does one decent year from Vernon justify a complete change of course?
I was looking at TOTAL snaps (Defensive plus Special Teams), referencing the stats at:http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts There is a conversation to be had about about the merit of special teams versus defensive snaps, but the fulcrum of the entire Dion Jordan argument seems to be "find ways to get him on the field!"
The thing with Jordan is finding ways to increase defensive snaps. You don't pick a guy 3rd overall to primarily be a Special Teams mainstay.
We haven't even talked about the 6th man role, certain players do not come off the bench well.. What I'm doing in this thread is trying to think what Coyle is thinking compared to me and what I would do if I was thinking like him, meaning, he thinks Dion is gonna explode this year, I think that, all signs point to an improved OV, I think that, and Wake is healthy, so, basically I have two improving players that look like potential studs and they are versatile enough to stand up and move laterally, I also have two starters at outside linebacker that did not play well last year..hmmm, why the hell would I take the stance that Dion is going to come off the bench in the nickel and just rush the passer, the man can do more than that, I gurantee you he's faster than Ellerbe, I guarantee you he covers a thousand times better, and I gurantee you he covers more space than anyone on this defense, if I do what I want, he plays outside backer, then in nickel, he rushes the passer.. That's the bottom line, he can do anything Ellerbe can do and a hell of a lot more, this notion that he has to learn to be a def end and that's it or it will haunt his career path is horse sh##..he's a freakin football player! now you wanna talk about playing the run?, you trying to tell me with one arm most of the year is not an excuse, you saying that you would take Ellerbe over Dion in any capacity?..on what ground does Ellerbe deserve the nod over Dion?.. Lol, because Coyle wants him to learn a position?? Poopie. Its is about the game and not overcomplicating it...sub my ***, Dion Jordan's *** needs to be on the field majority of the reps, and part of those reps needs to be in base defense, because he's the better player.
No, I don't agree that Dion Jordan would be better defending the run as a true LB in this defense than Dannell Ellerbe. That said, even if Dion Jordan is coming off the bench, he's still got a chance to play just as many snaps as Ellerbe. I think you're simply over-arguing semantics and banking on the potential of Dion Jordan. He's actually got to go out on the field and prove it. And a lot of the points you've raised there were never iterated by Kevin Coyle, this year or last year, so I'm not sure where you're pulling those from to be honest. I still think that eventually, if he develops like I think he will, he's going to be a starting DE and every-down player in this defense with Olivier Vernon being the guy that rotates in when in base packages and still plays a lot of snaps in nickel, dime, and other sub packages. I'd steer you to the links I've posted in this thread and my thread in Club to reiterate how I feel BOTH Jordan and OV can, and likely will, IMO, be used in 2014. I also think that Philip Wheeler will see an increase in productivity now that they seem to have him back to a comfortable spot. Ellerbe is the main question mark for me...but I just don't see Dion Jordan being capable of handling that role. He's athletic enough, yes. Is he physical enough? I don't know. Does he have the football acumen and ability to read the proper keys at that LB spot? I'd tend to doubt it as it's a position he's never played before, ever.
Well then I see where we are not seeing eye to eye, Jordan played with one shoulder/arm, I happen to think he's a very strong player when healthy, and when playing the run the only weakness I saw in college was reading the Read option, otherwise I saw him play the run with leverage and his hands well, dude sheds with authority..no gripes from me in that dept..honest eval.. Like I said, lets not make the game more complicated than it is, y'all are throwing out all the numbers and rep counts relative to formation, and sub packages, shoot, just unleash this superfreak and live with the results, no more babysitting, and no more specialized football. He's got to learn the game, he's got to develop a feel for anticipation,.its the wrong move for his potential to keep this player on the sideline, let him make mistakes, because he won't make the same mistake twice.. It's similar to the debate that folks have about first year qbs, some think it's better to let them play, some think it's best to throw in the fire, start off super hard, learn the game on the fly, then things will get easier from there.
This is true - but I think the point is to seek to adjust the system to the players a bit. To allow them to get on the field. It would not be a 3-4 style OLB, that's for sure. But, if Coyle were innovative enough and the players were smart enough they could create a hybrid D that is flexible - shifting to 3-4 and 4-3 and letting Jordan on the field to create more. Too many DCs (and OCs), imo, get locked into a system and are not creative enough. Would be nice to see Coyle be creative enough to evolve his D and more opportunities for the most athletic and talented players (and Jordan is among the top 2-3 on the D). I remember Belichick used to have all sorts of lineups that he'd shift around during games back in the early 2000's. In the SB against the Eagles, several times he went with two DLs and 5 LBs on the field.
But Belichick didn't do it on every down. Croyle already started to do exactly what you're talking about by creating that Speed package last year. But it was limited b/c, A) Dion wasn't quite ready for prime time with the injury and such... and B) Wake got hurt. ...and again, that's the problem with designing your entire defensive scheme around a couple players vs. the masses. If one or 2 of those players get hurt that you've now designed your entire scheme around... you're screwed. The old "next man up" routine doesn't work b/c the next man up isn't capable of handling the responsibilities of the man he's behind (Shelby dropping into coverage?). So... now you're having to scrap and redesign your defense mid-season that you've been working on all year.
5-2 defense, yo!! And I don't believe this was something we created on the fly, I believe this was in the works the whole time as a way to get Vernon and Jordan on the field together. What say you?
That 5-2 innovation is the biggest joke. It's a 3-4 formation. Plus every team used it this weekend, it's nothing new or innovative.
I kind of agree. Maybe I'm wrong but what you call it matters not, and only the coaches can really say for sure if it was technically a 5-2, 2-5, or a 3-4, because it completely depends on assignments. But I would say the fact of the matter is they were planning on getting Jordan and Vernon out there together.
None of it matter Roy, they took the wrong path with his body and him being one of the five is not exploiting his strengths.
