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Hypothetically, Do you believe Flores would survive Tua being a bust?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by AGuyNamedAlex, Oct 18, 2020.

Would Flores Remain As HC If Tua Busts?

  1. Yes, he has had success in other areas worthy of keeping him

    9 vote(s)
    64.3%
  2. No, the HC is more or less tied to his QB choice for better or worse.

    5 vote(s)
    35.7%
  1. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Survive as in, remain employed in Miami for his other successes.

    Also I am not asking if you THINK Tua will be amazing, terrible, ect.

    I'm interested in this as a hypothetical situation, because it appears many people are fairly happy with Flores currently. I'm borderline myself, but the HC and QB position are effectively tied together.

    So to recap let's say in the end Flores made a mistake with Grier, and they both think Tua was the guy and in tge end he isnt.

    Can Flores tenure survive a missed pick af the QB position and if so, how many chances do you give him? Do you fire Grier? Do you keep chugging?

    No wrong answers unless you dont follow the hypothetical.
     
  2. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I like Flores and wasn’t a fan of the Tua pick. I don’t want a potentially good coach tied to one pick no matter who it is.

    Honestly I think that thinking is flawed anyways. Even top tier QB’s with no injuries have a chance of busting. A good coach should be able to get their team playing to their potential and why make a decision as to whether they should keep their job based on one pick?
     
  3. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    First of all, I think this question is 4-8 weeks too early since we have very little to go by. We gutted the roster, played terrible, then somehow became competitive to close out last season. If I was basing my entire guess on that, I'd say Flores survives a bad Tua.

    We could add the first five games this year to that scenario, but the problem is that it's a completely different team from last season....it's another rebuild. So now I'm trying to make that guess with a 2-3 record where the Pats (and their refs) whooped us, we dominated two average teams and hung in there with a few dominant ones. At the same time though, we saw a lot of growth in 5 weeks on offense and the D looked amazing last week once we had both of our corners on the field healthy. So really, I'm making the prediction based on last week alone...which just isn't a fair assessment. Can't judge a man's career by one dominant week or even five up/down weeks.

    With that said, I think Flores can survive a bad Tua scenario because he's winning with Fitzpatrick now, the line is looking better than ever, the defense may well shape up to be elite and some other factors that seem to be playing out favorably. Tua should have been #1 overall as well and his injury made him a lot safer in terms of bust potential because it's the obvious out...Miami can say he's not healthy and playing his best. Or maybe they say he never really healed. God forbid he gets re-injured and misses time, but that kind of stuff isn't a dagger for coaching like just bad play is.

    You mentioned Grier in there as well. I'd be more critical of him if Tua busts but I wouldn't fire him over just that one pick...this is really about the combination of picks. I'm still critical of trading Tunsil, for instance, but it does look like we replaced Tunsil's value with a single pick and that makes that trade brilliant. Maybe I don't feel that way in four months.....but today, on paper, that pick alone gets us our next QB next season if Tua doesn't work out. How can I be mega-critical of that? It's looking like a great move so far. And while I'm still unhappy with the Minkah situation, we've also had some solid additions and this defense is really starting to take form.

    Again, it's super hard to answer this question today where I'd say both staff members get a pass. If we're a 4-win team in December though then I'm going to have a very different opinion about Grier and taking a long, hard look if Flores is the guy I thought he was. In that scenario, I think I'm screaming for Grier's head since we'd still stink and Tua would be a bust.....I HATED HATED HATED his promise of "perennial playoff contender" because that's almost impossible to deliver (and even harder to promise in a job interview). But as of today, I can see us on that path and realize that I might have judged him too soon.

    So my official answer is to ask me again in 8 weeks- we will see Tua and the rest of the team by then to give us a better idea of the development thru the season. I can tell you now though that if we're in the playoff race with the team playing similar to last week, then a bad Tua will not convince me to get rid of Flores.

    We can have the Grier conversation later though because I'm still very on the fence. It's important to note here that "on the fence" is a vast improvement over my initial assessment of Grier- I hated him from day one and compared him to a snake-oil salesman. So far he's proved me wrong and I hope that continues. If Tua actually busts though- man, I don't know. He's had some awesome picks/trades that had really changed the identity of this team so I'd try to be level-headed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
    AGuyNamedAlex likes this.
  4. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    He didn't draft him and the team has shown promise without him even playing, so yes, I think he'd survive a potentially busted pick with Tua. I think if it was more similar to Philbin/Tannehill or Gase/Tannehill where they were kind keeping each other one life support, then yeah...he'd get canned.
     
    AGuyNamedAlex likes this.
  5. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    As Key pointed out, the team’s roster has been gutted...twice! In 2019, the Dolphins had 33 new players as a result of amputating the old roster...the most of any team in the NFL. This season as a result of the rebuild and getting the players Flores wanted, there are 31 new players. Two huge roster turnarounds in 2 years.

    The team as a whole seems to be showing improvement and as I said in another thread, I think our team is better than our record. While 5 field goals against the Seahawks won’t win a game, those were 5 offensive drives, with the youngest team in the NFL against one of the premier teams in the league. I’d say the team played well overall with all things considered...and the shellacking we put on the 49ers, the team is showing improvement.

    Now with all of THAT being said, if Tagovailoa does end up being a bust, I think Flores has had enough success to show he’ll still be around and that the quarterback lottery is just that...a gamble.
     
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  6. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Yes he can. Tua was Grier's pick. If everything else is working and it's just Tua then Flores can certainly survive. If everything is failing then Flores is in danger.

    Standard practise.
     
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  7. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Flores possibly. Grier hell no.

    and I think at least part of the reason tua isn’t starting now is cause grier wants to keep moving the qb accountability needle back.
     
  8. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    He can if the team wins.

    Highly drafted QBs become busts all the time. It is reasonable to assume there is no such thing as a 100% sure fire thing. However, if Tua busts and there is a strong reason to believe Flores was the reason (eg sending an already injured Tua into a meaningless game the way Saban did) that puts Flores at heightened risk. If Tua busts because he’s partying like Johnny Manziel, people won’t hold that against Flores too much.

    What Flores won’t survive is Tua being a bust and the team losing.
     
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  9. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that, but it's not uncommon for the tenure of a coach to be tied to his first pick at QB. Mostly because it determines a lot of the on field success they will be evaluated by.
     
    KeyFin likes this.
  10. Losferwords

    Losferwords Member

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    Grier is a bum... keeps failing upward
     
  11. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I agree.

    I mean, this is a question for 2023 or 2024 really. If the 2022 season finishes and Tua didn't pan out, but the Dolphins still managed to become a Wild Card level team regardless, then that's probably enough for Flores to get a shot with another QB. But it could very well mean that Grier is replaced by another GM.

    And this is especially true if our 80 year old owner hands the team off to someone else between now and then.
     
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  12. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    The reason I believe the question is relevant now is that it's the last we will see of him coaching minus Tua for a while.

    Knowing where everyone stands before a thing happens can be important when going back later, because we can see who sticks to their guns and who changes.

    Though hopefully we never have to.
     
  13. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I personally don't believe that Tua will be a good QB, so I'm glad Flores seems to be able to get the team to play well without him.
     
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  14. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    He would REALLY need to make it obvious he's a top-tier coach to survive in that scenario. The risk would be that he's a middling coach that you then try to give a series of middling veteran QBs to try and put the team over the void created by a QB bust which means we sit in NFL purgatory for years - not good enough to be real contenders, not bad enough to get a shot at a top-tier QB prospect.

    Perhaps the bigger issue would be that if Tua was a bust, that essentially means Grier is gone, and I think if you want to fire either the coach or the GM, both need to go. It just creates dysfunction to have a GM and coach not hired together and not on the same page/seeing eye to eye. Look at the Jests situation, the Lions, etc. The only coach that should survive in that situation is a proven elite coach, and I am not sure Flores will be able to do enough to show that sans QB.
     
  15. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I doubt very much that Tua was Flores' pick but rather a pick by committee with Ross involved. I can't see where a bust scenario would be pinned solely on Flores. How we finish this season with Finspatrick carries more weight than how Tua performs when he finally plays.
     
  16. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL, I made it very clear that I'll be changing my answer after the fact! As of today, I keep Flores/Grier. At the end of the season though, I will completely flip the script on Grier if multiple picks don't pan out. And the reason for that is the promise- continual playoff contender. Most GM's are 50/50 but he set the standard much higher, so that's what I'm holding him to.

    So far though, I can't find a reason to fire the man....it appears that he's done well over the past 15 months. The only glaring mistake is the one nobody wants to talk about outside it's assigned thread- Ryan Tannehill. Grier was the guy that cast out 2019's passer rating leader and that's a very big deal. So I think we're judging him on two QB's over the next few seasons...and neither is named FitzMagic.
     
  17. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Damn. discussing about Flores and Grier being fired right before we play the Jets. a week removed from stomping the niners and still in the race? ....far out.
     
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  18. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Team success is tied to QB play, and coach success is tied to team success. But, it's not like a coach picks one QB and can only roll with them. Belichek's first QB move with the Pat's was to give Bledsoe a then record $103 million contract. He was on the team for a year. The Texans could land the Dolphins one of the top 2 QBs in next years draft. The Dolphins spent a top five pick on Tua, but it was just one pick.
     
  19. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    agreed, so far it looks like a big mistake that we passed on Herbert. I’ve watched the Tua special and he’s a hard guy not to personally like but I just didn’t like the pick.
     
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  20. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Depends on what else goes on around Tua. But my gut says no. It wouldn't be fair, but I think the team stinking it up for the next two seasons while finding out Tua is a bust would spell the end for Flores.
     
  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Let’s see how far he gets with Fitzpatrick.
     
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  22. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    You're missing the point. Noone is calling for him TO BE fired or discussing firing him.

    In fact the question is if you keep him if/when Tua fails.
     
  23. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    He did already reject Tannehill so he has a huge strike on QB savvy.
    We can call that strike #1.
    Josh Rosen a second and a fifth pick strike #2
    Tua fails that would be strike #3 especially at the cost of #5 pick from round one.
    That would be three lost draft picks at the cost of no QB, not good at that point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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  24. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    Lets hope that doesn't happen.

    Fitz is like the little boy holding his finger in a leaky dam. Somebody better do something fast because it's very temporary.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  25. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He didn't reject RT - he was on a huge contract. Had he shown enough in 7 years to justify another year. It was time to cut Ryan loose, 7 years is too long - he needed to go for his own sake. He likely would have died behind that OL last year as well.
    Rosen was a shot at a 1 year 1st round QB - how many times have we moaned that they hadn't taken enough swings at a QB and we took a swing & missed. It happens and it was a late 2nd that we got from the Saints through trade - it was a free pick.
     
  26. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    If Tua busts it should be Chris Grier who gets the axe. Grier is the GM and personnel man. He has final decision on draft picks.
     

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