How Optimistic Are You on A Scale Of 1 to 10 About Our Future?

"KeyFin wrote:

I went with #2, the lowest response so far....not because "all hope is lost" but because I'm less certain than the #3 answer, "I'm fairly pessimistic."

My reason for feeling that way is Grier and the sheer amount of quality talent we shed in the past 12 months. I do like Flores and I believe he could turn into an excellent long-term coach, but without the right GM and the right players on the field I don't think any coach can make a playoff appearance once (much less "perennial championship contender"). I simply have no faith in Grier because he hasn't done anything YET to make me feel anything different.

I'll also be the first to admit I'm wrong though and if the draft leads to a 9+ win season with the right quarterback in place, my 2 will turn into something between a 7 and a 9 overnight. That's A LOT to happen in one year though and I hate that our fate is in the hands of one single person (Grier) who's 100% unproven. It's honestly the biggest gamble in the history of football and the odds are not in our favor for this to end well in the next 12-24 months.

As I said though, if it does all work out I'll be ecstatic....but that's why I'm not a gambler. Give me the safe bet every day of the week and let other teams chase that super-elusive jackpot. And if Flores "craps out" as expected, I'll sadly remind you that I said this exact same thing the day he was hired; what he's promised to deliver is almost impossible and Ross is a fool for buying into it.

I'll add one more thing- I've been on this forum for over a decade and most of you have given me a hard time for always being way too optimistic. Just last weekend when I said we'd hang with the Pats and possibly make a Miracle in Miami Part II, Gillette Edition...I got nothing but blow-back. The same happened the year before when I said our team was about to go on a 6-win streak...I almost always see potential and hop on the bandwagon.

This thing with Grier is so different though because it's almost reminds me of Hitler's Nazi Germany. This is 100% Grier's show and anyone who questions it is instantly fired or traded...he's building his vision no matter what and we assume that the ideal players are just naturally going to be there waiting for us at every given turn. I don't think what he wants to accomplish can happen across even three seasons (not counting the one we just had) and by the time we do reach year 4 or 5, people will have completely abandoned this path and we won't see it come to fruition either way.

I have a very strong feeling that we're wasting the next 2-3 seasons for absolutely nothing....no franchise QB and no perennial championship contender. And hey, I'd love to be 100% dead wrong here, but go through my posts for the past decade plus and show me anyone with a better track record of predictions here. Unfortunately I'm right more than I'm wrong and I have a sickening feeling about Grier.

Nothing that happens in North American professional sports remotely compares to Hitler's Nazi Germany. Good grief.:pity:

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

well so do I, but after living through the DECADES of disappointment as I have, after a while you gotta put some things in perspective and look at things logically. If you don't, you're going to be so high strung that your wife isn't going to want to have anything to do with you lol.

My wife and I went on our first date just days before the start of the 2004 season. Weve been together 15 years, and shes never known any good times for the Fins. I keep promising her how much happier I'll be when it eventually gets better!

"KeyFin wrote:

I went with #2, the lowest response so far....not because "all hope is lost" but because I'm less certain than the #3 answer, "I'm fairly pessimistic."

My reason for feeling that way is Grier and the sheer amount of quality talent we shed in the past 12 months. I do like Flores and I believe he could turn into an excellent long-term coach, but without the right GM and the right players on the field I don't think any coach can make a playoff appearance once (much less "perennial championship contender"). I simply have no faith in Grier because he hasn't done anything YET to make me feel anything different.

I'll also be the first to admit I'm wrong though and if the draft leads to a 9+ win season with the right quarterback in place, my 2 will turn into something between a 7 and a 9 overnight. That's A LOT to happen in one year though and I hate that our fate is in the hands of one single person (Grier) who's 100% unproven. It's honestly the biggest gamble in the history of football and the odds are not in our favor for this to end well in the next 12-24 months.

As I said though, if it does all work out I'll be ecstatic....but that's why I'm not a gambler. Give me the safe bet every day of the week and let other teams chase that super-elusive jackpot. And if Flores "craps out" as expected, I'll sadly remind you that I said this exact same thing the day he was hired; what he's promised to deliver is almost impossible and Ross is a fool for buying into it.

I'll add one more thing- I've been on this forum for over a decade and most of you have given me a hard time for always being way too optimistic. Just last weekend when I said we'd hang with the Pats and possibly make a Miracle in Miami Part II, Gillette Edition...I got nothing but blow-back. The same happened the year before when I said our team was about to go on a 6-win streak...I almost always see potential and hop on the bandwagon.

This thing with Grier is so different though because it's almost reminds me of Hitler's Nazi Germany. This is 100% Grier's show and anyone who questions it is instantly fired or traded...he's building his vision no matter what and we assume that the ideal players are just naturally going to be there waiting for us at every given turn. I don't think what he wants to accomplish can happen across even three seasons (not counting the one we just had) and by the time we do reach year 4 or 5, people will have completely abandoned this path and we won't see it come to fruition either way.

I have a very strong feeling that we're wasting the next 2-3 seasons for absolutely nothing....no franchise QB and no perennial championship contender. And hey, I'd love to be 100% dead wrong here, but go through my posts for the past decade plus and show me anyone with a better track record of predictions here. Unfortunately I'm right more than I'm wrong and I have a sickening feeling about Grier.

Key, we frequently agree but I have to disagree with you here. I'm still digesting the season, so I can't make an overall opinion on expectations, but one thing you point to, Grier's gutting of the roster as a negative. While I admit it caught me off guard initially, trading left and right I'm reminded of what Jerry Jones/Jimmy Johnson did when they took over the Cowboys. They GUTTED their roster and made the insane monstrous trade of Hershel Walker to the Minnesota Vikings. Cowboys fans lost their freaking minds and went after Jones with pitchforks. But how did that pan out ultimately? Three Super Bowl victories in 4 years. I was no fan of the Cowboys...despised them and wished they all would die a slow death of crotch rot...that's how much I hated the Cowboys however...I always RESPECTED Tom Landry and what he accomplished. So his firing and the gutting of their roster angered me as I felt it was a betrayal to the organization. The thing is though, that's what NEEDED to happen.

I hate the fact we lost so many good players...Tannehill, Tunsil, Stills, et al...we were ridding ourselves of our GREAT players. WTF, over? Well, if we're going to change the environment, then we have to get rid of the baggage. I'm going to reserve judgment until the 2021 season before I go off half cocked.

"Unlucky 13 wrote:

My wife and I went on our first date just days before the start of the 2004 season. Weve been together 15 years, and shes never known any good times for the Fins. I keep promising her how much happier I'll be when it eventually gets better!

Your marriage to your wife is GREATER than any season or era the Dolphins will ever have! :wink2:

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

Key, we frequently agree but I have to disagree with you here. I'm still digesting the season, so I can't make an overall opinion on expectations, but one thing you point to, Grier's gutting of the roster as a negative. While I admit it caught me off guard initially, trading left and right I'm reminded of what Jerry Jones/Jimmy Johnson did when they took over the Cowboys. They GUTTED their roster and made the insane monstrous trade of Hershel Walker to the Minnesota Vikings. Cowboys fans lost their freaking minds and went after Jones with pitchforks. But how did that pan out ultimately? Three Super Bowl victories in 4 years. I was no fan of the Cowboys...despised them and wished they all would die a slow death of crotch rot...that's how much I hated the Cowboys however...I always RESPECTED Tom Landry and what he accomplished. So his firing and the gutting of their roster angered me as I felt it was a betrayal to the organization. The thing is though, that's what NEEDED to happen.

I hate the fact we lost so many good players...Tannehill, Tunsil, Stills, et al...we were ridding ourselves of our GREAT players. WTF, over? Well, if we're going to change the environment, then we have to get rid of the baggage. I'm going to reserve judgment until the 2021 season before I go off half cocked.

That's 100% fine to reserve judgement- we were asked what our opinion was today though and I gave mine.

You also have to remember that Jimmy Johnson came to Miami and tried to do the same thing- gutting the roster, signing half of Dallas's roster and expecting a quick turnaround. Not only did it not work, but that kicked off the pattern that we're still in today....firing a coach and GM every few years while hoping the next one will get it right. It's more than a long shot for this to work and like I said, I just don't like taking those types of gambles.

It's okay for us to disagree though...my kids do that with me every single day! =)

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

Your marriage to your wife is GREATER than any season or era the Dolphins will ever have! :wink2:

LMAO, what are you trying to say about his wife? How do you know? LOL!

"KeyFin wrote:

LMAO, what are you trying to say about his wife? How do you know? LOL!

If he's been with her for 15 years...:wink2:

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

well so do I, but after living through the DECADES of disappointment as I have, after a while you gotta put some things in perspective and look at things logically. If you don't, you're going to be so high strung that your wife isn't going to want to have anything to do with you lol.

That's why I go to the bar to watch now. If I stay home for a game all the girls go lock themselves in the bedroom and don't come out til the games over. But it's been 21 years now, wife doesn't want anything to do with me even if it's not football season.

I was probably a 7 or 8 before Chan Gailey and Howard. Now it’s a 4.

"KeyFin wrote:

This thing with Grier is so different though because it's almost reminds me of Hitler's Nazi Germany.

Chan Gailely?
I wanted to pick 8 but hit the 5 because I'm just not as sure as I'd like to be. We will see.
Chan Gailely?
Chan Gailely?
The draft will be fun to watch.
Chan Gailely?

I would also have voted 7 or 8 if this poll had been posted before Gailey.

FinD's perspective has mellowed my queasiness over that hire. I hope he's right.

I was at 8 before Gailey hire.. im at a 5 at the moment .. could jump up after free agency and the draft

I am at a 7. I really think Flores was a great hire. Not only was he able to win 5 games with this roster, there were many games in which we looked like the better team for the entire 60 minutes.

Unfortunately, I do cannot go hire because of Grier and Ross. Ross loves the splashy move, and I could see a blockbuster trade to move up to get an injured QB. I know Ross is a business man, and I gotta think that he of all people understands risk vs. reward and the ability to walk away from a deal. I just hope he can apply it to the his NFL team.

Grier has a long track record on a team with a poor track record of drafting. I don't know that we will ever know who exactly was making the final choices during his time with the team, but I certainly know he was part of the process. This year he will have the benefit of volume, but we really need to not only hit, but walk away with pro bowlers.

Also, in recent years, I have never been able to see a "grand vision" of what Grier wants our team to look like based on his draft picks. It feels like a hodgepodge of guys at various positions.

As a general thought experiment, look at just the positions taken by the Dolphins (or any other team) in the first four rounds of the last three years, and ask yourself, "How do you think that this team envisions itself winning games?"

Here are the Dolphins' picks:
2019
DT
Young QB (Trade)
G
Aging DE (Trade)

2018
S
TE
OLB
TE
RB

2017
DE
LB
CB
Traded pick used in 2016

If I didn't know what team this is, and you asked me, "How it envisions itself winning games?" I would tell you that they were trying to do some sort of power running game with double tight end formations based on the 2018 draft.

As far as defense is going, I would guess that it was trying to attack the QB from the outside - this is not really a scheme or identity. I feel like the picks almost tell you that they failed in 2017 in finding that edge, and in 2019, they tried to make up for their mistakes.

Now, if you look back to the Parcells era in Miami, you could definitely see a difference. You could clearly see a man who was tying to build units and address certain problems. Let's take a look at his classes:

2009
CB
QB
CB
WR
WR

2008
T
DE
QB
DE
T

If you look at his brief tenure, and asked, "How do you think that this team envisions winning?"

First and foremost, I would say, "QB play is important." I think Pat White may be a curveball, but whatever. I think that the team wanted to set a young QB up with a solid offensive line. This team looks like it wants to pass the ball and values good receivers, and moreover wants to set the QB up for success.

Defensively, it appears that this team wants to rush the passer, get the ball out of his hands quickly, and have solid corners to make sure that these passes are defended. The staff wants this to be a hard team to pass on.

Now obviously, not all of the players panned out. Even the best are gonna miss a certain amount of picks, but my point is that this is a man that is not just picking players, he is building a team with a vision in mind.

"KeyFin wrote:

I went with #2, the lowest response so far....not because "all hope is lost" but because I'm less certain than the #3 answer, "I'm fairly pessimistic."

My reason for feeling that way is Grier and the sheer amount of quality talent we shed in the past 12 months. I do like Flores and I believe he could turn into an excellent long-term coach, but without the right GM and the right players on the field I don't think any coach can make a playoff appearance once (much less "perennial championship contender"). I simply have no faith in Grier because he hasn't done anything YET to make me feel anything different.

I'll also be the first to admit I'm wrong though and if the draft leads to a 9+ win season with the right quarterback in place, my 2 will turn into something between a 7 and a 9 overnight. That's A LOT to happen in one year though and I hate that our fate is in the hands of one single person (Grier) who's 100% unproven. It's honestly the biggest gamble in the history of football and the odds are not in our favor for this to end well in the next 12-24 months.

As I said though, if it does all work out I'll be ecstatic....but that's why I'm not a gambler. Give me the safe bet every day of the week and let other teams chase that super-elusive jackpot. And if Flores "craps out" as expected, I'll sadly remind you that I said this exact same thing the day he was hired; what he's promised to deliver is almost impossible and Ross is a fool for buying into it.

I'll add one more thing- I've been on this forum for over a decade and most of you have given me a hard time for always being way too optimistic. Just last weekend when I said we'd hang with the Pats and possibly make a Miracle in Miami Part II, Gillette Edition...I got nothing but blow-back. The same happened the year before when I said our team was about to go on a 6-win streak...I almost always see potential and hop on the bandwagon.

This thing with Grier is so different though because it's almost reminds me of Hitler's Nazi Germany. This is 100% Grier's show and anyone who questions it is instantly fired or traded...he's building his vision no matter what and we assume that the ideal players are just naturally going to be there waiting for us at every given turn. I don't think what he wants to accomplish can happen across even three seasons (not counting the one we just had) and by the time we do reach year 4 or 5, people will have completely abandoned this path and we won't see it come to fruition either way.

I have a very strong feeling that we're wasting the next 2-3 seasons for absolutely nothing....no franchise QB and no perennial championship contender. And hey, I'd love to be 100% dead wrong here, but go through my posts for the past decade plus and show me anyone with a better track record of predictions here. Unfortunately I'm right more than I'm wrong and I have a sickening feeling about Grier.

Key, do you honestly think that all of the decisions were made by Grier alone because I highly doubt that Flores, Allen & McKenzie weren't involved in this.
Also, in terms of the talent we have let go, apart from RT & Minkah (who has lucked into a lot of his big plays), who else is tearing up the field. Drake has had 2/3 decent games (and he didn't want to sign a new contract), Tunsil has missed a few games and we would have had to pay him this year (with that money, we should be able to get 3-4 good players), Stills (no), Taylor (No), McDonald (no), Wake (was playing ok but has been on IR & wouldn't fit the system), the DE that went to Dallas (who's name completely escapes me - no and also wouldn't fit the system).
Again, the free agency & the draft is not just Grier - do I know how it's going to go, of course not but we have good people in place that on the outside, seemed to know what they are doing.
And has already been said, there is nothing here that compares to Nazi Germany, ridiculous comment

"Patster1969 wrote:

Key, do you honestly think that all of the decisions were made by Grier alone because I highly doubt that Flores, Allen & McKenzie weren't involved in this.
Also, in terms of the talent we have let go, apart from RT & Minkah (who has lucked into a lot of his big plays), who else is tearing up the field. Drake has had 2/3 decent games (and he didn't want to sign a new contract), Tunsil has missed a few games and we would have had to pay him this year (with that money, we should be able to get 3-4 good players), Stills (no), Taylor (No), McDonald (no), Wake (was playing ok but has been on IR & wouldn't fit the system), the DE that went to Dallas (who's name completely escapes me - no and also wouldn't fit the system).
Again, the free agency & the draft is not just Grier - do I know how it's going to go, of course not but we have good people in place that on the outside, seemed to know what they are doing.
And has already been said, there is nothing here that compares to Nazi Germany, ridiculous comment

Feel free to disagree...but I was asked for my opinion and I shared it. We'll need a historically great draft to replace what we traded away this past season. I really hope that happens, but I believe Flores is completely over his head and most of the moves he made were out of pride instead of common sense.

As I said, I hope I'm 100% wrong but I see a completely different picture than most of you.

"KeyFin wrote:

Feel free to disagree...but I was asked for my opinion and I shared it. We'll need a historically great draft to replace what we traded away this past season. I really hope that happens, but I believe Flores is completely over his head and most of the moves he made were out of pride instead of common sense.

As I said, I hope I'm 100% wrong but I see a completely different picture than most of you.

I'll be honest, I hope you are wrong as well Key :001_rolleyes:

However, it wasn't just about the 2020 draft, it was a 2 year (hopefully but likely 3) project to give us greater FA & draft flexibility plus the ability for Flores to get his players. As I said, there were some players that didn't want to be here, some that didn't fit and some that were just paid too much for not a great deal of production.
I am excited about the next few years but there is obviously a worry that he is in over his head (although I don't see that as this moment) - if that's the case, him & Grier are gone and we have to start again.

It really depends on the draft and free agency in my opinion. I realize not everything can be done in one offseason, but if we draft a game changing player and sign a few guys to solidify certain positions (like O line) then i'm going to feel a lot better about the direction we're headed. Free agency is so overrated though...Look at the Jets last year and all the splash moves they made and it was all for what? Nothing...They weren't really any better of a team then we were.

"Patster1969 wrote:

I'll be honest, I hope you are wrong as well Key :001_rolleyes:

However, it wasn't just about the 2020 draft, it was a 2 year (hopefully but likely 3) project to give us greater FA & draft flexibility plus the ability for Flores to get his players. As I said, there were some players that didn't want to be here, some that didn't fit and some that were just paid too much for not a great deal of production.
I am excited about the next few years but there is obviously a worry that he is in over his head (although I don't see that as this moment) - if that's the case, him & Grier are gone and we have to start again.

If Grier fails in the draft and is lackluster with free agents? It's not just starting again, but starting with nothing. The team was stripped of talented players (Tunsil, Minkah, Drake, and surprisingly Tanny) in 2019 and that needs replaced ALONG WITH adding more talent. Miami will effectively be an expansion team if Grier fails.

This is a 'swing for the fence' rebuild and the results will probably be extreme (modest success by Grier gets us back to 7-9 win seasons which is bad but not disastrous). The one decision that matters most is finding a QB. If that happens, even if he fails in fixing the OL and finding a running game, Grier will leave a much easier rebuild for the next front office.

So far results show most people are leaning towards the positive side.

Initial conclusions:

1) More people are highly positive than highly negative.

2) There is uncertainty in the fan base, but more people are leaning towards optimism in general than negativity.

3) People who voted 6 are like swing state voters in the next poll. Their outlook becoming more negative would lead to the numbers being nearly even between 1-5 and 6-10.

4) Its equally true that the swing voters who chose 6 could be impacted in a more positive direction. That would make it a landslide victory for overwhelming positivity going into next season.

"AGuyNamedAlex wrote:

So far results show most people are leaning towards the positive side.

Initial conclusions:

1) More people are highly positive than highly negative.

2) There is uncertainty in the fan base, but more people are leaning towards optimism in general than negativity.

3) People who voted 6 are like swing state voters in the next poll. Their outlook becoming more negative would lead to the numbers being nearly even between 1-5 and 6-10.

4) Its equally true that the swing voters who chose 6 could be impacted in a more positive direction. That would make it a landslide victory for overwhelming positivity going into next season.

What I found interesting were the people who dropped their optimism several points after the O'Shea for Gailey trade. Like, I get that we finished with a few nice Fitz performances, but our offense had some big red flags. It's not like we dropped a proven coach who lead us to a top 3 offense, y'know? Kind of raised my eye a bit, but if Flores is the real deal, we get a QB prospect worth his salt and Fitz can at least start next season similar to his finish, we will be alright. Gotta feel we will take at least 1 RB semi-high as well. Maybe Swift or Dobbins in the first, Etienne or Taylor or someone in the second. OL I suspect we try some free agents, but wouldn't be shocked to see a few drafted.

Depends on what we do at qb.

"texanphinatic wrote:

What I found interesting were the people who dropped their optimism several points after the O'Shea for Gailey trade. Like, I get that we finished with a few nice Fitz performances, but our offense had some big red flags. It's not like we dropped a proven coach who lead us to a top 3 offense, y'know? Kind of raised my eye a bit, but if Flores is the real deal, we get a QB prospect worth his salt and Fitz can at least start next season similar to his finish, we will be alright. Gotta feel we will take at least 1 RB semi-high as well. Maybe Swift or Dobbins in the first, Etienne or Taylor or someone in the second. OL I suspect we try some free agents, but wouldn't be shocked to see a few drafted.

For me, its not just based on hiring Gailey, and being wary of him. That's a part of it, but its almost secondary.

The worst part is that this past season, after decades of waiting, the Fins finally started to run an offense that I really enjoyed. The passing game concepts are exactly what I want the team to use, and they used Parker, Williams and Gesicki in the ways that I want them to be. Despite having Fitz at QB and despite the OL sucking and despite the run game being basically non-existant, there were still so many beautiful things that came out of it this year. And I was so, so, so excited to see how that would all blossom over the next few years with improved blocking and QB play......

.....and then the team rips out my heart and takes a sledgehammer to my groin by firing the man who designed and called all of those plays. Its deeply emotionally painful, and I'm not going to get over it if we run an offense that's a lot more like what Gailey has run in the past than what we had last season. I'm not.

"Unlucky 13 wrote:

For me, its not just based on hiring Gailey, and being wary of him. That's a part of it, but its almost secondary.

The worst part is that this past season, after decades of waiting, the Fins finally started to run an offense that I really enjoyed. The passing game concepts are exactly what I want the team to use, and they used Parker, Williams and Gesicki in the ways that I want them to be. Despite having Fitz at QB and despite the OL sucking and despite the run game being basically non-existant, there were still so many beautiful things that came out of it this year. And I was so, so, so excited to see how that would all blossom over the next few years with improved blocking and QB play......

.....and then the team rips out my heart and takes a sledgehammer to my groin by firing the man who designed and called all of those plays. Its deeply emotionally painful, and I'm not going to get over it if we run an offense that's a lot more like what Gailey has run in the past than what we had last season. I'm not.

Same way I feel.

I'm not as against Gailey as my initial reaction would suggest. I expect him to be "fine" but not great.

However, I though O'Shea was running a damn good offense that would only have improved with talent.

I also dont buy this "Difference in opinion on QB type" stuff being thrown around.

Think about how illogical that is. You made a commitment to a coach you have fundamental disagreements with, he was successful based on the ingredients given and you fired him after a year?

Who does that? They didnt know about that disagreement at his hiring?

I gave it a 3 because of Flores. Otherwise it would have been one. I think Flores did a good job with a crappy roster. Obviously, with no expectations he could play fast and loose. There was no pressure. Year two will say everything about him. What's his vision, can he build, can he improve? If we don't improve next year then fire flores and grier