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How Did Vance Joseph Get a HC Job After THE Worst D in Dolphins History?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Rickysabeast, Jul 20, 2017.

  1. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Maybe you've got to stop and think that there might be more to it than that?

    Unit ranking does not correlate all that strongly with the job that a coordinator has done. You can look at a variety of less obvious and more technical aspects of what was done in terms of planning and on-the-field decision making, and Joseph comes out looking pretty good. There's a reason why people have been talking about him being a future head coach for a couple years now, and Gase for all intents and purposes appeared to plan for that from the get-go.
     
  2. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    I think that's what all Contrarians say.
     
  3. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I made points, backed them with analogies and logic. You attacked me for literally no reason all while essentially ignoring the discussion.
     
  4. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    The difference between yards allowed and points allowed is a big plus for Vance. For one thing, last time I checked, yards gained/allowed only counts in Fantasy football, not the real thing.

    The NFL is a passing league. Teams pass 60%+ of the time now. Stopping the pass, you know the one you said 'meh' about, is far more important than stopping the run. Also considering the phins were last or near last in things like offensive snap count and T.O.P. to be only #15 in passing yards allowed is very impressive with the MASH unit our secondary was.

    On top of that players praised his work ethic/teaching skills/defensive schemes in a way that I never recall players talking about previous DCs. That indicates NFL players hold him in high regard.

    You also have to add in he was installing the wide 9 as a new base defence.

    All things considered he didn't do a bad job.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2017
  5. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Just a few more thoughts.

    There were more than a few Dolphins defenders who had bounceback years under Vance. Kiko Alonso, Byron Mazwell and Andre Branch in particular. I remember many people saying the phins got suckered in the deal with Philly that brought us Alonso and Maxwell.
    The players who had disappointing years either suffered injury (example Xavien Howard) or were unproven (example Jordan Philips, Dion Jordan).
    The only player who underwhelmed as far as I recall was Mario Williams. Even then the phins took a gamble to see if they could turn him around after a down year, it wasn't as if he was a high performer who inexplicably declined.

    Also we had no WTF game plans like we had under Kevin Coyle example http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...phins-players-reportedly-furious-with-ds-plan

    It is reasonably arguable that Vance's 2016 with the Dolphins was like Gase's 2015 in Chicago. Getting the most out of a unit that wasn't good to start with and was then decimated by injuries.
     
  6. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Like you said at the top, points are greater than yds, we were 25th in passing TDs allowed, while being 13th in rushing TDs allowed.
     
  7. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Another point in Vance Joseph's favor is passer rating allowed.

    In 2015 the Phins allowed 97.4 (#24)
    In 2016 they allowed 88.8 (equal 16)
     
  8. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    It was probably said, however, how much of the defense was based on bad personnel decisions and injuries?

    One final thing, I think it was a mistake to hire VJ, just because he was on the verge of being a HC. No one saw this coming in Denver, but he had one foot out the door all year long
     
  9. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Jersey
    Saying he sucks is kind of ridiculous. As others have said, the unit was A. littered with injuries. B. Lacking depth, especially at the linebacker position.

    Time will tell, but he has a good track record as a defensive coach and even if he was a "bad" DC, it doesn't mean he won't succeed as a head coach.
     
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  10. danmarino

    danmarino Justice for Jacob Blake Club Member

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    VJ is one hell of a coach. He turned chicken sh!t into chicken salad while here in Miami. And by no means was last years Miami defense even close to the worst defense in history.

    I'm excited to see what Burke can do, but I wish VJ was still here.
     
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  11. dolphan117

    dolphan117 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Would this be the hard knocks from 5 years ago in 2012 when neither Joseph for Mike worked for the Dolphins and our HC coach was Joe Philbin?
     
  12. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    Just being honest here, but our D was not chicken salad, unless you're not a fan of chicken salad, lol.
     
  13. danmarino

    danmarino Justice for Jacob Blake Club Member

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    I'm not talking New England Patriots defense cheating chicken salad caliber, I'm talking about something edible. The Dolphins defense was riddled with injuries last season. And yes, I realize that injuries happen to every team, but typically not to the degree in which it happened to them last season. And even though those injuries happened, VJ had the Dolphins defense ranked about average (if I remember correctly, between 13th-18th) all season long.
     
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  14. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    I didn't attack you. Toughen up buttercup. You think anyone that disagrees with you is attacking you. You give your view specifically to be contrarian and then call my opposite stance me attacking you. You can dish it out but you can't take it. Just ignore my posts. I could not care what you think in any way. They aren't for you. We aren't friends we aren't going to be friends.
     
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  15. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Táin Bó Cúailnge Club Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Yes, you did in fact attack me. I haven't dished anything out to you.

    I can tell you don't care what I say....by the way you respond to everything I say.
     
  17. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    No. It was a reference to the inner workings of a team as visible on any season of Hard Knocks. The DC isnt just some puppet. He has input on who his players are. Tannenbaum isn't just some mad scientist up there bringing in players he saw on the magic 8 ball.
     
  18. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    Yes I do agree on that. It was an obscene amount of injuries I hope we never see the like of again.
     
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  19. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    I said I don't care what you think. I didn't say I wouldn't support my stance. Go kick a puppy or key a nuns car or whatever else you do when you aren't pissing in peoples cheerios on here.
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Oh look, you're still "not" attacking me.....
     
  21. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Take this **** to Finheaven where it belongs.
     
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  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's just poor analysis. Defense was bad, so that means Vance Joseph was bad. You're literally not considering that the defense may have been even worse than it appeared, and it only appeared serviceable because Joseph is actually a good coach.
     
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  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Or maybe Joseph was the problem. But taking this attitude:
    ...is just incorrect and absurd and shows a complete lack of understanding of the team, the game and how life works.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
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  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Lets try it this way: where should the defense have been ranked, given that around half our starters were injured. How competitive can a defense expect to be when they're missing both starting safeties, a starting linebacker or two, and a starting corner or two?
     
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  25. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    Look at the games. We still had plenty of starters playing against Cleveland in week five when we couldn't stop them and totally lucked our way into that win after they missed two FG's. We couldn't stop the worst team in the league playing with their third string QB. So does that count as him being a bad DC and not having his team ready to play? What light do we need to hold that up to? At the end of the day, the guy is gone and he'll fail in Denver and we'll be better off. So like whys anyone arguing with me? We got something rare which was the DC that didn't do a GREAT job (I think we can all agree on that but who knows) got plucked and we'll have a better D this year. I mean why's everyone need to defend the guy? Look at the stats.
     
  26. danmarino

    danmarino Justice for Jacob Blake Club Member

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    The Dolphins defense gave up 17 points to Cleveland. Not great, but not bad either. I think the Patriots gave up 14 points to the Browns.
     
  27. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Ok listen, I've read some of these comments and others I just skimmed over. Here's my take on Vance Joseph and the Dolphins' defense last season.

    Were we banged up? You bet'cha. Did we fill holes with no-namers such as Paysinger, Rambo & Butler?

    Yea we did, but when your defensive coordinator "brags" that the defense is a "bend but doesn't break" defense...
    That he doesn't care about how many yards his defense is giving up?
    That the defense is really allowing "that many" points to be scored?

    The man was making excuses. He wasn't able to make adjustments and THAT is the difference between a poor coach and a GREAT coach! Great coaches are able to adjust, regardless of who they have on their roster and that's where Joseph is lacking.

    Vance Joseph is one of those coaches where if he has every piece of a puzzle in place, he'll look like a genius bust seeing how our defense was steam rolled last year...and if it weren't for the testicular fortitude of players such a Suh, Wake, Alonso and Maxwell stepping up and playing above and beyond...

    Everyone is touting our defense for the up-coming season, how we're healthy and the personnel we now have to plug the holes we had last year. That sounds great, but we'll see how Matt Burke handles having the reigns as DC. Is he a student of Joseph..."bend don't break" or will we have an aggressive defense reminiscent of the No Name Defense, the Steel Curtain, the Purple People Eaters, the Killer B's?

    We'll just have to wait and see. I'm excited about the up-coming season, more than I have in YEARS!!! However, my faith is more with Adam Gase than it is any player but on the defensive side of the ball, will Adam Gase be "Don Shula" with Bill Arnsparger or Tom Olivadotti as his DC?

    Matt Burke, you had better be the former and not the latter.
     
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  28. danmarino

    danmarino Justice for Jacob Blake Club Member

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    Whats wrong with a "bend but don't break defense"? The Patriots have been winning with one for years. Since 2001 they have been ranked worse than average in yards allowed per game 7 times. And ranked 10th or worse 10 times. In comparison, their defense has been ranked worse than average in PPG 2 times and 10th or worse 5 times.

    These facts are the main reason that most people don't really talk about the Patriots defense. Even though they have been arguably the best overall defense since 2001, they are not "flashy" like the Steel Curtain or Killer Bees et al. The Patriots, over the last 17 years, have been EPIC in regards to defensive play and have done so with a "bend but don't break" style of defense.
     
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  29. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So, you're unwilling to say where they should have been ranked? I mean, I understand, you were unhappy with the defense, I think everyone was unhappy with the defense. I'm just trying to get you to put a number on where they shiuld have been ranked.
     
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  30. Rickysabeast

    Rickysabeast Royale With Cheese

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    What? The rankings are accurate because our defense was pathetic (insert list of great reasons here).
     
  31. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not in statistics that have more bearing on winning games (PPG, turnovers). Defense was also good at getting off the field on 3rd down (though they allowed too many first downs in general).
     
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  32. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Right...your argument, though, it seems, is that the defense was bad because of Joseph. So, with a better, in your mind, DC, where would you have envisioned our defense being ranked? You can't blame Joseph for the defense, but not have a different ranking where you think they should have been. So, if they were 18th, do you think they shiuld have been 10th? If they were 23rd, should they have been 15th?

    I guess I'm having a harder time understanding your posts, if you can't tell us where you feel their talent should have had then ranked, if we'd had, again in your opinion, a god DC.
     
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  33. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Vance Joseph got a job as a HC in Denver because he's a damn good football coach and leader. The forward thinkers, and most successful people in the business of football tend to be those who have the ability to look beyond the results of stats on paper, and apply the other important intangible qualities people bring, whether that be with players, and or coaches. Heck, we've got a guy here where I worked that I never thought would be a good outside sales person. Figured he'd fall flat on his face based on the metrics we looked at from his previous experience in a more inside sales role. However, there were things about this individual's personality, and attitude that made us say, well lets give him a chance. The first few months were rough while he adjusted from waiting for the phone to ring, to making the phone ring in his new role, but you know what, he's consistently in our top 2-3 now.

    There's significantly more to hiring a guy as your head coach, than looking at the statistics of his previous unit. You've got to look at it from multiple angles. Especially now that you're making VJ your head coach, not your DC. So, how does he work with others? How is he going to structure his staff? Who is he bringing with him? What do his assistants working for him think of him? What do his players think of him? What's the plan he brought forth regarding his plan for your team in your interviews with him? Do you think he can be a good leader? Not just a good leader as in rah-rah on the field, in the locker room guy... but how is he going to lead by example in the media? In his every day role? Planning and preparation? How's he going to run his practices? Fast and hard? Soft and slow? How will the players respond? Does he have a connection with the players, and his coaches? How is he going to adjust when things don't go as planned, for example, a key player gets hurt for a long time. How is he going to handle adversity? How is his team going to handle it? Is he going to have control? Is he able to delegate successfully to his OC/DC and assistants? Sometimes I feel like fans think the HC simply sits in his office, works on a gameplan with his OC/DC and yells and screams on and off the field. It's far beyond that. He's essentially running everything football related past the GM's role. He's no longer just building a defensive gameplan based on the HC's direction, he's no longer managing a few assistants and position coaches, and no longer in charge of 25 or so players, he's doing EVERYTHING now.

    When you look simply at VJ's unit last year by the numbers, I get it, you go meh... But if you look in depth at what he did, in the first year of a program, with the number of injuries to starters, and backups, and guys that may not make other NFL rosters playing quality starting minutes, and then when you talk to the players on both sides of the ball, but especially defense, you start to see a much clearer picture.

    Now, Vance may very well fail in Denver. As a matter of fact you can probably expect he's out in 3-5 years, I suspect the average life span for coaches in their first NFL gigs is even lower than that 3-5 range, but that won't mean the writing was on the wall because of Miami's defensive numbers last year, there's just far to many other things that go into evaluating someone as a candidate for a head coach. Success is one, sure, but it's not the only.
     
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  34. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think he got hired because of his leadership style and they saw in that style the ability to lead men. His stats are more related to the talent level then to his leadership IMO. You can't teach talent just like you can't teach speed or strength. You can teach technique. If you're guys are getting blown off the ball because of technique then you have a point about his coaching ability. If they are getting blown up because they aren't fast enough, are in the right places and don't make the plays or are getting out muscled then I don't think that's a coaching problem. It's a talent problem.

    A good point in this was Gase's pressers after games where he kept saying something to the effect that people aren't in the right positions to make plays (specifically talking about the offensive line). He was showing them what they needed to do but they weren't in the right places. He got rig of those players and the back ups were serviceable. But we all know that the talent level wasn't there. There are strings and string about the offensive lines talent level. So when 2 out of 3 of your starting linebackers and a couple of your cover guys are out for the season, then the guys behind may have some talent but they are of the same caliber as the guy in front of them. You might find one or even 2 that rise to the occasion, but when you're talking about 4+ starters you're going to have a drop off.
     
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  35. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You beat me to it as I was typing. Well (and better said) them my post.
     
  36. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Perhaps having the worst LB unit in the league and a terrible secondary, once Jones was injured is the reason the defense was awful last year.

    I find it surprising that supposedly knowledgeable football fans fail to realize how pathetic the LB's and the secondary were last year because the talent just wasn't there. Obviously the Broncos understood that Joseph did as well as he could, considering he was forced to use a lot of players on defense who should not have even been in the NFL, much less starting on defense for the Dolphins.

    Unfortunately, with another first time DC this season and a still below average LB corp and questions in the secondary and DL, I think the Dolphins defense will likely be a bottom 10 unit in 2017.

    The offense is going to have to score a lot of points every game for this team to win more than 7-8 games this coming season. Because I see this defense giving up a lot of points during the season.
     
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  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    That is BS. Miami has the talent to have an average to above average LB corp. Heck, they might actually be good.
     
  38. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    Last year is gone. We were decimated by injury with a roster defensively that was limited to begin with. VJ was able to parlay being young, intelligent, and articulate into a HC job. IMO, this a much more fitting debate for Broncos fans...but whatever. I'm happy for Vance. I'm optimistic re Matt Birk, but we still have a HUGE deficiency on the DLine after Suh. Hopefully the FO can upgrade the talent and the coaches can make the most of it. My final thought on VJ is hes taking his talent, whatever it is, to the toughest division in the NFL.
     

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