1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Here's article I can behind..Fins' biggest hurdle is improving talent

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MDFINFAN, Jan 5, 2008.

  1. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN New Member

    1,328
    182
    0
    Nov 29, 2007
    Here's a article I can behind..Fins' biggest hurdle is improving talent

    This is and was the crux of the problem this year..talent not good enough, Houck said it, and this writer got it..I wish the people on this board also get it, it wasn't the coaching..

    http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/368042.html

    What are your thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2008
  2. Carabinieri44

    Carabinieri44 New Member

    292
    3
    0
    Dec 1, 2007
    i understand....but why is it that every player that Miami traded away or lets go, always goes elsewhere and turns into a star??? Chris Chambers, Heath Evans to name 2 of them...even Sammy Knight and Sam Madison did a little better elsewhere. Sage Rosenfels, AJ Feeley...


    Trent Green, Ronnie Brown, Vernon Carey, Samson Satele, Marty Booker, Camarillo, Ginn on offense, is what i call TALENT.

    on defense...Taylor, Traylor, Roth, Holliday, Thomas, Porter, W. Allen, J. Allen is TALENT.



    i do think coaching is an issue....or maybe the hot weather around Miami. who knows?
     
  3. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

    19,529
    9,219
    113
    Nov 22, 2007
    CNY
    While I totally agree that there is a serious lack of talent on this team, I also think there is ample evidence to say that the players weren't responding to Cam. It wasn't all Cam's fault, Randy didn't do much to fix the ST's and was banking on the younger guys to step up, but poor conditioning, clock mismanagement and things like Porter not knowing the playbook can all be traced back to Cam.

    The one thing that I will give Cam and Randy credit for is last years draft.
     
  4. lbmclean_sj

    lbmclean_sj New Member

    450
    34
    0
    Nov 29, 2007
    you mean 5-6 straight crappy drafts has left us devoid of talent?

    incredible
     
  5. Captain lou

    Captain lou New Member

    119
    9
    0
    Dec 7, 2007
    We don't have much talent that much is true but that doesn't mean Cameron was a good coach. He made many questionable decisions. If Parcells didn't think enough of him to keep him I trust his judgement.
     
  6. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

    7,163
    3,892
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Thomasville, GA
    I'll answer that question in four words.

    "Offensive Line"
    "Defensive Line"

    Almost nothing has been done adequately on either of those two units for years. At this point, I can think of only three people who would clearly be starters on either unit on most of the other teams in the NFL (Carey, Satele, and Taylor). Most of the rest are people who were either back-ups, or failed starters, or over the hill starters, or did not live up to their hype starters on other teams. We "might" have some answers in "some" positions (Wright, Holliday, and Hadnot), but both guards, and in a way, both tackle positions are in flux on the O line (specially if there is a possibility of the availability of a quality LT), and everything in the middle is a total mess on the D line. Without those two units functioning at what could only be charitably called a "sometimes adequate" level, anyone who could have starred at other positions here had to find somewhere else to shine because they were either getting smacked by people who should never have made into either backfield, or having to cover up for mistakes and poor play because the O Line couldn't block and the D line couldn't stop my grandmother in her wheel chair. Anyone here, except exceptional talent, will have a hard time doing anything like starring as well as they should (see Ronnie Brown!) And injuries - if Brown wasn't having to do a stellar job to get TO the line of scrimmage for the majority of his games here, he might be able to do more by being beat up less before he could get started.
     
  7. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN New Member

    1,328
    182
    0
    Nov 29, 2007
    There wasn't enough bad clock management to cause that much losing. This was a talentless team whom Cam got to play to their best ability without having a mutiny..period, that in itself was great coaching.
     
  8. REV KEV

    REV KEV New Member

    227
    4
    0
    Nov 28, 2007
    Particularly Oline... while Defense was banged up we didn't see the real Vonnie H. or Mattt Roth for that matter...

    BP will find late rounders who will play ST and be versatile on both sides...
     
  9. late again

    late again Senior Member

    9,397
    2,104
    0
    Nov 24, 2007
    You are so right. I'm amazed (on a regular basis) that so few people don't look at our problems and immediately cite our p*poor O-line play for the past ten years as the predominant reason for failure. I've also been frustrated during this time at the token effort our carousel of HCs have made to address this problem. To his credit Saban tried, but conceptually he was wrong. He has this belief that good enough coaching will compensate for a lack of talent. Ya need both, Nick.
    Actually to be fair Speilman seemed to recognize the same thing. To his credit; once he had control of the draft he drafted Carey and Hadnot.
    In my opinion, one of Cam's worst mistakes was letting Kevin Carter and David Bowens go.
     
  10. Phins28

    Phins28 Up the Irons

    2,024
    248
    63
    Dec 4, 2007
    Puerto Rico
    I think it’s a little bit of both, bad coaching and bad talent. I believe Cameron and Mueller’s fate was sealed long time ago, Huizenga wanted to fire them and that’s why he hire Parcells
     
  11. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

    21,755
    3,475
    113
    Jan 5, 2008
    Oviedo FL
    Last year was the best draft we had in many years. What we have now is the Wanny years coming back to kill us.
     
  12. Etuoo33

    Etuoo33 New Member

    138
    2
    0
    Nov 25, 2007
    Melrose FL
    'Wrongstat'... I though we had a profanity filter.
     
  13. sweeper

    sweeper New Member

    319
    7
    0
    Nov 26, 2007
    hold on, did it say that Cam said he had planned to keep 80% of the roster? jesus christ id kill myself if i see thsi same production next year
     
  14. Milkmoney21

    Milkmoney21 New Member

    86
    0
    0
    Nov 30, 2007
    hahaha i know you didnt say camarillo
     
  15. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    Prior to Saban?

    Cause I am not negative toward the last 3 drafts....thought each one was a stepping stone to a better roster. Still have needs and holes (mainly OL and DL) that are the foundation to successful teams, but the last 3 werent Wanny/Spielman horrific.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2008
  16. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area

    hahahah, the emotion of one win.....
     
  17. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

    13,006
    6,368
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    NJ
    there was a huge misevaluation of talent by Mueller, who was in Miami for the past several seasons. pretty inexcusable. we also should've known by pre-season that we didn't have a prayer at running a 3-4 well. that cost us early games. putrid special teams coaching cost us a game or two, in the grand scheme of things. that falls on the head coach too. the first Jets game in particular comes to mind in regards to bad ST play. we had enough talent to be a 4-6 win team. no way we're 0-14, playing our hearts out for that first win in week 16, with Saban as coach.
     
  18. ChambersWI

    ChambersWI Banned

    399
    21
    0
    Dec 17, 2007
    Harrisburg, PA
    not just crappy drafts, we've had crappy FA moves that backfired. We either sign guys who have one good year and don't live up to their contracts, or we sign guys to do jobs they have no business doing. When you are relying on James McKnight and Derrius Thompson to take pressure off of Chris Chambers, you'll have a horrible pass offense.

    That said, I think having 2 good talent evaluators in Tuna and Ireland as well as a coach they trust will help improve our team dramatically, atleast in how they play. Part of the reasons bad teams improve is they get lesser known guys, and they also use what they have to the best of their abilities (which is why Parcells got a Dallas team with Quincy Carter at QB and Troy Hambrick at RB to the playoffs).
     
  19. ChambersWI

    ChambersWI Banned

    399
    21
    0
    Dec 17, 2007
    Harrisburg, PA
    hell I'd go as far as to say we'd have atleast 2 wins with Wanny as our coach. He wasn't good by any means, but the team atleast respected and liked him. And even in 04, the team always played hard (we normally lost cause AJ or Jay, mainly AJ, would throw a pick 6)
     
  20. Sam

    Sam Member

    190
    47
    0
    Nov 30, 2007
    Heck, we didn't have a prayer at running a 4-3 either. If you have a tape of those games, especially those earlier games, go watch our DL, they were getting blown off the line and the LBs couldn't get off their blocks, leaving huge gaps on just about every running play. And I'm sorry, but I think you're kidding yourself if you think we had enough talent to be a 4-6 win team. I would say that every team we played could have run or passed to get a score when they needed it, especially in the 4th qtr...our defense sucked all year.

    Too many injuries, not enough good backups.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2008
  21. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

    13,006
    6,368
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    NJ
    well off the bat, we lost 6 games by a field goal or less. all those games were very winable. and we really only got blown out 3 or 4 times. better coached, better prepared guys could have lead to a healthier team. we did have an uncharacteristically soft pre-season. i think our defense, bad as it was, was much better in a 4-3, than 3-4...and we couldve stole wins at the Skins and Jets early had we run it.
     
  22. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

    3,343
    3,332
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    I honestly don't think we can use "we drafted the three stooges over and over again" as too much of an excuse. In the Wannstadt and Saban eras we NEVER played young developmental talent if there was an opportunity to play a proven if mediocre veteran instead.
    There have been plenty of guys who've left the phins and been successful elsewhere. Or even players like Morlon Greenwood whom we let go because he was "too expensive" only to burn a draft pick on Channing Crowder who has proven to be Morlon Greenwood II.

    This year we had Satele, Ginn, and Mauia contributing as starters on offence by choice of team management - you'd have to go back to the Jimmy Johnson era to fins a year when we voluntarily had 3 rookies starting and making significant contributions. Add in Lo Booker who's started to be a solid 3rd down back and you have to go back a long way in phinhistory to find a bunch of rookies that have contributed so much.
     
  23. 13Marino13

    13Marino13 Old school VH rocks!

    71
    9
    8
    Jan 5, 2008
    Palmerton, PA
    The coaching had ALOT to do with it both directly and indirectly. Lets not forget it was the Coach as well as the GM who canned most of last years team and brought in their own players. So if the "coaching" was not an issue then the talent evaluation certainly was! And Cam had alot of input in that department. See: Trent Green
     
  24. Sam

    Sam Member

    190
    47
    0
    Nov 30, 2007
    Sorry, I have to disagree. We were just competitive enough in some of the games to be close, and not get blown away for the most part in other games, but, I maintain that when push came to shove, our team had too many weak spots that could be exploited for us to win. Even if we had scored with 1 min left in any game, I don't believe for a minute that we'd stop the other team from scoring. We got lucky with our one win.
     
  25. Sethdaddy8

    Sethdaddy8 Well-Known Member

    13,006
    6,368
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    NJ

    fair enough.:ffic:
     
  26. ChambersWI

    ChambersWI Banned

    399
    21
    0
    Dec 17, 2007
    Harrisburg, PA

    which is another reason Cam got fired since we should have lost to Baltimore.
     
  27. Sam

    Sam Member

    190
    47
    0
    Nov 30, 2007
    Sorry, I disagree. How can any team suffering so many injuries be expected to do much competitively, especially when we've had so many piss poor drafts over the years? Is there any team who's had a worse drafting record than us over the last number of years? Think back, you'll see that we've had little depth for a long time, we've always been one Zach or JT injury from having a losing record. Over the years, I'd say that we've been pretty lucky with injuries, at least until this year...the bottom essentially just fell out.

    For all the mistakes and perceived mistakes that Cam made (i.e. plays that didn't work), once the stone starting rolling downhill, I don't think any coach could have done much better.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2008
  28. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN New Member

    1,328
    182
    0
    Nov 29, 2007
    We had to can a lot of last year's players, how else would we start bringing new young players to start rebuilding this year? We needed the salary space and the chance to hit upon young guys, something that hasn't happen in years. If we keep all of the old guys, we continue the cycle ever establishing a younger foundation so that in 4 years we have what NE has, their draft picks in one system reaching their prime. You guys want to keep the old but complain about not drafting good, when this was seemingly a good draft, but we would have had to purge them to keep the older guys. Gotta start somewhere.:confused2:
     
  29. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Well, for starters, Saban's two drafts have now earned the label of "Poor".

    Let's examine:

    1. Ronnie Brown
    2. Matt roth
    3. Channing Crowder
    4. Travis Daniels
    5. Anthony Alabi
    7. Kevin Vickerson

    2006:

    1. Jason Allen
    2-0-
    3. Derek Hagan
    4. Joe Toledo
    5. -0-
    6. -0-
    7. Fred Evans
    7. Rod Wright
    7. Devin Ashmoudshu

    Of the 12 players picked, 8 are still on the roster, of the 8 two (2) have not played during regular season games.

    The 2 DT's taken are now elsewhere

    Devin Ashmoudhu is now playing on the Bear's excellent Special Teams unit.

    Ronnie Brown and Jason Allen have played relatively few games for us.

    Hagan, Crowder, Daniels and Matt Roth all have under performed.

    Meaning of the 8 players that are still here, it may be a good idea to try and I dunno...get some production out of them?

    First thing we do is try and get some snaps out of the guys we already have, when shula came to miami, he found a way to make the players that we already had, play much much better...then he brought other players in here.....
     
  30. pags77

    pags77 New Member

    54
    0
    0
    Dec 9, 2007
    Jersey
    Wow, our insignia is "goofy and intimidates no-one" according to that article, that must be the problem. Oh yeah, the 72 team had the same goofy insignia as well. I like the insignia....
    The thing that PO'd me the most is if you know your roster is devoid of talent, how do you not run a training camp to at least have them in better shape than everyone else. A major benefit of playing early season games in S. Florida is northern teams have to come down in the heat and humidity. We shold have had more gas in the tank yet our players were the ones always sucking air. That was a reflection of the crappy coaching we got from Cam and his band O' losers.
     
  31. bran

    bran Senior Member

    4,525
    1,505
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    New Hampshire
    the phins should not have traded welker first of all, he was the most underrated playmaker in football, and now that he is with the patriots everyone is singing his praises

    if the phins didnt trade welker, the dolphins would have had welker/ginn/booker, at the very least and maybe chambers stays, now that would be a very solid receiving core

    the dolphins have suffered one of the longer droughts of bad drafting i have seen, but this past year was one of the better drafts , i think it helps lay a solid foundation

    cam is not fully to blame i think wanny was the biggest culprit, another is the fact that their has been so much turmoil in miami for the longest time, it has not been a stable franchise, you have coaches quitting while the season is still on going, a guy that says he is staying in miami, and then in the middle of the night high tails it out

    i think it is hard for the players to stay balanced, they dont know whats coming next especially for players like ZT and JT who have been here since the johnson days

    parcells will bring stability to miami, and restock the team with talent
     
  32. Hellhound13

    Hellhound13 New Member

    18
    0
    0
    Dec 6, 2007
    Check out all the comments attached to that article. The "goofy" insignia really created some heat.
     
  33. fishfan34

    fishfan34 Junior Member

    19
    5
    0
    Jan 6, 2008
    Tampa, Florida
    Bingo, couldn't have said it better.
     
  34. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    I dont see either as poor for some of the same arguments you make against it.

    12 picks, 8 still on the roster, another that was let go, gets picked up and is contributing in the NFL.

    Its just so hard to rationally critique all we have when we have major holes in OL and DL foundation areas for good winning teams. Again, many of these picks are major contributors to teams with solid OLs and solid DLs - thats what we are missing to fairly critique them on our team right now.

    When things turn around and Ws start popping up more frequently lets look at who is still on the roster who is contributing and who is being praised then.

    I think Sabans two drafts plus Cams last year, sets this years up to be the 4th positive one in a long long list of POOR and HORRIFIC drafts. Just dont think Sabans equals poor.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2008
  35. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN New Member

    1,328
    182
    0
    Nov 29, 2007
    You're right, Saban's draft gave us skilled position players, but not the meat, OL and DL, this is where cam\muller draft, started to fill in some of the spots, starting Center, Mormino hopefully, FB, and a WR. Solia maybe depth or he may come on this year. Rodrique Wright may turn out to be a fine too. Now we need a shut down corner, another beast at DT, and 2 guards and a Tackle, and JT's replacement, if Quentin Moses doesn't pan out.
     
  36. bran

    bran Senior Member

    4,525
    1,505
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    New Hampshire
    i really like quentin moses, i think he is going to be a very good player
     
  37. Dmarino110

    Dmarino110 New Member

    71
    1
    0
    Dec 10, 2007
    I think Cam took a 6 win team and almost made us the worst of all time.

    What about the decisions to some of our best talent go so we could make WR a need on draft day. What about letting go of the best receiving tight end we've had in a very long time. What about the decision not to push people in training camps, and the lack of conditioning our team had because of it? What about the inability to know that on 4th down you kick one way or another? What about spiking a ball with over a minute left? What about putting a rookie QB into a game way before he was ready with a line that is unable to protect him?

    Remember the only reason we are not 0-16 is because of a bad snap, bad hold, and bad kick. We got extremely lucky. We do need more talent, but talent at HC is an issue too.
     
  38. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Two DT's, both now gone, Two olineman, both haven't played.

    If even 2 of those players had panned out, we would not be in such dire straights on our lines.

    Hagan starts catching the ball, we wouldn't need to draft a Wr.

    Crowder improves, we wouldn't be scrambling to find Lb's

    Daniels showed some skill, we would have a Safety to pair up with Jason Allen.

    My post wasn't really about praise, it is about outcomes, Saban's drafts have poor outcomes due to lack of production or even development of they players he brought in here.

    Put it another way, we virtually have a draft sitting on our roster doing next to nothing when it comes to helping win games.
     
  39. MDFINFAN

    MDFINFAN New Member

    1,328
    182
    0
    Nov 29, 2007
    And most likely we'd get another rookie HC and go thru some of the same things, but a talented team would have overcome all the things you mentioned. Face it, we weren't that team, we do have a lot of young, and I emphasize young talent that has to develope, but a lot of the building blocks were put into place this year. The next coach will benefit from that. I wouldn't have cared if we went 0-16 to get a foundation going..between Saban's and Cam/Muller's draft, we have some potential, and I'm excited about that.
     

Share This Page