Here's article I can behind..Fins' biggest hurdle is improving talent

i understand....but why is it that every player that Miami traded away or lets go, always goes elsewhere and turns into a star??? Chris Chambers, Heath Evans to name 2 of them...even Sammy Knight and Sam Madison did a little better elsewhere. Sage Rosenfels, AJ Feeley...

Trent Green, Ronnie Brown, Vernon Carey, Samson Satele, Marty Booker, Camarillo, Ginn on offense, is what i call TALENT.

on defense...Taylor, Traylor, Roth, Holliday, Thomas, Porter, W. Allen, J. Allen is TALENT.

i do think coaching is an issue....or maybe the hot weather around Miami. who knows?

"MDFINFAN wrote:

This is and was the crux of the problem this year..talent not good enough, Houck said it, and this writer got it..I wish the people on this board also get it, it wasn't the coaching..

http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/368042.html

What are your thoughts.

While I totally agree that there is a serious lack of talent on this team, I also think there is ample evidence to say that the players weren't responding to Cam. It wasn't all Cam's fault, Randy didn't do much to fix the ST's and was banking on the younger guys to step up, but poor conditioning, clock mismanagement and things like Porter not knowing the playbook can all be traced back to Cam.

The one thing that I will give Cam and Randy credit for is last years draft.

you mean 5-6 straight crappy drafts has left us devoid of talent?

incredible

"MDFINFAN wrote:

This is and was the crux of the problem this year..talent not good enough, Houck said it, and this writer got it..I wish the people on this board also get it, it wasn't the coaching..

http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/368042.html

What are your thoughts.

We don't have much talent that much is true but that doesn't mean Cameron was a good coach. He made many questionable decisions. If Parcells didn't think enough of him to keep him I trust his judgement.

"Carabinieri44 wrote:

i understand....but why is it that every player that Miami traded away or lets go, always goes elsewhere and turns into a star??? Chris Chambers, Heath Evans to name 2 of them...even Sammy Knight and Sam Madison did a little better elsewhere. Sage Rosenfels, AJ Feeley...

Trent Green, Ronnie Brown, Vernon Carey, Samson Satele, Marty Booker, Camarillo, Ginn on offense, is what i call TALENT.

on defense...Taylor, Traylor, Roth, Holliday, Thomas, Porter, W. Allen, J. Allen is TALENT.

i do think coaching is an issue....or maybe the hot weather around Miami. who knows?

I'll answer that question in four words.

"Offensive Line"
"Defensive Line"

Almost nothing has been done adequately on either of those two units for years. At this point, I can think of only three people who would clearly be starters on either unit on most of the other teams in the NFL (Carey, Satele, and Taylor). Most of the rest are people who were either back-ups, or failed starters, or over the hill starters, or did not live up to their hype starters on other teams. We "might" have some answers in "some" positions (Wright, Holliday, and Hadnot), but both guards, and in a way, both tackle positions are in flux on the O line (specially if there is a possibility of the availability of a quality LT), and everything in the middle is a total mess on the D line. Without those two units functioning at what could only be charitably called a "sometimes adequate" level, anyone who could have starred at other positions here had to find somewhere else to shine because they were either getting smacked by people who should never have made into either backfield, or having to cover up for mistakes and poor play because the O Line couldn't block and the D line couldn't stop my grandmother in her wheel chair. Anyone here, except exceptional talent, will have a hard time doing anything like starring as well as they should (see Ronnie Brown!) And injuries - if Brown wasn't having to do a stellar job to get TO the line of scrimmage for the majority of his games here, he might be able to do more by being beat up less before he could get started.

"like2god wrote:

While I totally agree that there is a serious lack of talent on this team, I also think there is ample evidence to say that the players weren't responding to Cam. It wasn't all Cam's fault, Randy didn't do much to fix the ST's and was banking on the younger guys to step up, but poor conditioning, clock mismanagement and things like Porter not knowing the playbook can all be traced back to Cam.

The one thing that I will give Cam and Randy credit for is last years draft.

There wasn't enough bad clock management to cause that much losing. This was a talentless team whom Cam got to play to their best ability without having a mutiny..period, that in itself was great coaching.

"RevRick wrote:

I'll answer that question in four words.

"Offensive Line"
"Defensive Line"

Almost nothing has been done adequately on either of those two units for years. At this point, I can think of only three people who would clearly be starters on either unit on most of the other teams in the NFL (Carey, Satele, and Taylor). Most of the rest are people who were either back-ups, or failed starters, or over the hill starters, or did not live up to their hype starters on other teams. We "might" have some answers in "some" positions (Wright, Holliday, and Hadnot), but both guards, and in a way, both tackle positions are in flux on the O line (specially if there is a possibility of the availability of a quality LT), and everything in the middle is a total mess on the D line. Without those two units functioning at what could only be charitably called a "sometimes adequate" level, anyone who could have starred at other positions here had to find somewhere else to shine because they were either getting smacked by people who should never have made into either backfield, or having to cover up for mistakes and poor play because the O Line couldn't block and the D line couldn't stop my grandmother in her wheel chair. Anyone here, except exceptional talent, will have a hard time doing anything like starring as well as they should (see Ronnie Brown!) And injuries - if Brown wasn't having to do a stellar job to get TO the line of scrimmage for the majority of his games here, he might be able to do more by being beat up less before he could get started.

Particularly Oline... while Defense was banged up we didn't see the real Vonnie H. or Mattt Roth for that matter...

BP will find late rounders who will play ST and be versatile on both sides...

"RevRick wrote:

I'll answer that question in four words.

"Offensive Line"
"Defensive Line"

Almost nothing has been done adequately on either of those two units for years. At this point, I can think of only three people who would clearly be starters on either unit on most of the other teams in the NFL (Carey, Satele, and Taylor). Most of the rest are people who were either back-ups, or failed starters, or over the hill starters, or did not live up to their hype starters on other teams. We "might" have some answers in "some" positions (Wright, Holliday, and Hadnot), but both guards, and in a way, both tackle positions are in flux on the O line (specially if there is a possibility of the availability of a quality LT), and everything in the middle is a total mess on the D line. Without those two units functioning at what could only be charitably called a "sometimes adequate" level, anyone who could have starred at other positions here had to find somewhere else to shine because they were either getting smacked by people who should never have made into either backfield, or having to cover up for mistakes and poor play because the O Line couldn't block and the D line couldn't stop my grandmother in her wheel chair. Anyone here, except exceptional talent, will have a hard time doing anything like starring as well as they should (see Ronnie Brown!) And injuries - if Brown wasn't having to do a stellar job to get TO the line of scrimmage for the majority of his games here, he might be able to do more by being beat up less before he could get started.

You are so right. I'm amazed (on a regular basis) that so few people don't look at our problems and immediately cite our p*poor O-line play for the past ten years as the predominant reason for failure. I've also been frustrated during this time at the token effort our carousel of HCs have made to address this problem. To his credit Saban tried, but conceptually he was wrong. He has this belief that good enough coaching will compensate for a lack of talent. Ya need both, Nick.
Actually to be fair Speilman seemed to recognize the same thing. To his credit; once he had control of the draft he drafted Carey and Hadnot.
In my opinion, one of Cam's worst mistakes was letting Kevin Carter and David Bowens go.

"MDFINFAN wrote:

This is and was the crux of the problem this year..talent not good enough, Houck said it, and this writer got it..I wish the people on this board also get it, it wasn't the coaching..

http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/368042.html

What are your thoughts.

I think it’s a little bit of both, bad coaching and bad talent. I believe Cameron and Mueller’s fate was sealed long time ago, Huizenga wanted to fire them and that’s why he hire Parcells

Last year was the best draft we had in many years. What we have now is the Wanny years coming back to kill us.

'Wrongstat'... I though we had a profanity filter.

"lbmclean_sj wrote:

you mean 5-6 straight crappy drafts has left us devoid of talent?

incredible

hold on, did it say that Cam said he had planned to keep 80% of the roster? jesus christ id kill myself if i see thsi same production next year

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i understand....but why is it that every player that Miami traded away or lets go, always goes elsewhere and turns into a star??? Chris Chambers, Heath Evans to name 2 of them...even Sammy Knight and Sam Madison did a little better elsewhere. Sage Rosenfels, AJ Feeley...

Trent Green, Ronnie Brown, Vernon Carey, Samson Satele, Marty Booker, Camarillo, Ginn on offense, is what i call TALENT.

on defense...Taylor, Traylor, Roth, Holliday, Thomas, Porter, W. Allen, J. Allen is TALENT.

i do think coaching is an issue....or maybe the hot weather around Miami. who knows?

hahaha i know you didnt say camarillo

"lbmclean_sj wrote:

you mean 5-6 straight crappy drafts has left us devoid of talent?

incredible

Prior to Saban?

Cause I am not negative toward the last 3 drafts....thought each one was a stepping stone to a better roster. Still have needs and holes (mainly OL and DL) that are the foundation to successful teams, but the last 3 werent Wanny/Spielman horrific.

"Milkmoney21 wrote:

hahaha i know you didnt say camarillo

hahahah, the emotion of one win.....

there was a huge misevaluation of talent by Mueller, who was in Miami for the past several seasons. pretty inexcusable. we also should've known by pre-season that we didn't have a prayer at running a 3-4 well. that cost us early games. putrid special teams coaching cost us a game or two, in the grand scheme of things. that falls on the head coach too. the first Jets game in particular comes to mind in regards to bad ST play. we had enough talent to be a 4-6 win team. no way we're 0-14, playing our hearts out for that first win in week 16, with Saban as coach.

"lbmclean_sj wrote:

you mean 5-6 straight crappy drafts has left us devoid of talent?

incredible

not just crappy drafts, we've had crappy FA moves that backfired. We either sign guys who have one good year and don't live up to their contracts, or we sign guys to do jobs they have no business doing. When you are relying on James McKnight and Derrius Thompson to take pressure off of Chris Chambers, you'll have a horrible pass offense.

That said, I think having 2 good talent evaluators in Tuna and Ireland as well as a coach they trust will help improve our team dramatically, atleast in how they play. Part of the reasons bad teams improve is they get lesser known guys, and they also use what they have to the best of their abilities (which is why Parcells got a Dallas team with Quincy Carter at QB and Troy Hambrick at RB to the playoffs).

"Sethdaddy8 wrote:

there was a huge misevaluation of talent by Mueller, who was in Miami for the past several seasons. pretty inexcusable. we also should've known by pre-season that we didn't have a prayer at running a 3-4 well. that cost us early games. putrid special teams coaching cost us a game or two, in the grand scheme of things. that falls on the head coach too. the first Jets game in particular comes to mind in regards to bad ST play. we had enough talent to be a 4-6 win team. no way we're 0-14, playing our hearts out for that first win in week 16, with Saban as coach.

hell I'd go as far as to say we'd have atleast 2 wins with Wanny as our coach. He wasn't good by any means, but the team atleast respected and liked him. And even in 04, the team always played hard (we normally lost cause AJ or Jay, mainly AJ, would throw a pick 6)

"Sethdaddy8 wrote:

there was a huge misevaluation of talent by Mueller, who was in Miami for the past several seasons. pretty inexcusable. we also should've known by pre-season that we didn't have a prayer at running a 3-4 well. that cost us early games. putrid special teams coaching cost us a game or two, in the grand scheme of things. that falls on the head coach too. the first Jets game in particular comes to mind in regards to bad ST play. we had enough talent to be a 4-6 win team. no way we're 0-14, playing our hearts out for that first win in week 16, with Saban as coach.

Heck, we didn't have a prayer at running a 4-3 either. If you have a tape of those games, especially those earlier games, go watch our DL, they were getting blown off the line and the LBs couldn't get off their blocks, leaving huge gaps on just about every running play. And I'm sorry, but I think you're kidding yourself if you think we had enough talent to be a 4-6 win team. I would say that every team we played could have run or passed to get a score when they needed it, especially in the 4th qtr...our defense sucked all year.

Too many injuries, not enough good backups.

"Sam wrote:

Heck, we didn't have a prayer at running a 4-3 either. If you have a tape of those games, especially those earlier games, go watch our DL, they were getting blown off the line and the LBs couldn't get off their blocks, leaving huge gaps on just about every running play. And I'm sorry, but I think you're kidding yourself if you think we had enough talent to be a 4-6 win team. I would say that every team we played could have run or passed to get a score when they needed it, especially in the 4th qtr...our defense sucked all year.

Too many injuries, not enough good backups.

well off the bat, we lost 6 games by a field goal or less. all those games were very winable. and we really only got blown out 3 or 4 times. better coached, better prepared guys could have lead to a healthier team. we did have an uncharacteristically soft pre-season. i think our defense, bad as it was, was much better in a 4-3, than 3-4...and we couldve stole wins at the Skins and Jets early had we run it.

I honestly don't think we can use "we drafted the three stooges over and over again" as too much of an excuse. In the Wannstadt and Saban eras we NEVER played young developmental talent if there was an opportunity to play a proven if mediocre veteran instead.
There have been plenty of guys who've left the phins and been successful elsewhere. Or even players like Morlon Greenwood whom we let go because he was "too expensive" only to burn a draft pick on Channing Crowder who has proven to be Morlon Greenwood II.

This year we had Satele, Ginn, and Mauia contributing as starters on offence by choice of team management - you'd have to go back to the Jimmy Johnson era to fins a year when we voluntarily had 3 rookies starting and making significant contributions. Add in Lo Booker who's started to be a solid 3rd down back and you have to go back a long way in phinhistory to find a bunch of rookies that have contributed so much.

"MDFINFAN wrote:

This is and was the crux of the problem this year..talent not good enough, Houck said it, and this writer got it..I wish the people on this board also get it, it wasn't the coaching..

http://www.miamiherald.com/616/story/368042.html

What are your thoughts.

The coaching had ALOT to do with it both directly and indirectly. Lets not forget it was the Coach as well as the GM who canned most of last years team and brought in their own players. So if the "coaching" was not an issue then the talent evaluation certainly was! And Cam had alot of input in that department. See: Trent Green

"Sethdaddy8 wrote:

well off the bat, we lost 6 games by a field goal or less. all those games were very winable. and we really only got blown out 3 or 4 times. better coached, better prepared guys could have lead to a healthier team. we did have an uncharacteristically soft pre-season. i think our defense, bad as it was, was much better in a 4-3, than 3-4...and we couldve stole wins at the Skins and Jets early had we run it.

Sorry, I have to disagree. We were just competitive enough in some of the games to be close, and not get blown away for the most part in other games, but, I maintain that when push came to shove, our team had too many weak spots that could be exploited for us to win. Even if we had scored with 1 min left in any game, I don't believe for a minute that we'd stop the other team from scoring. We got lucky with our one win.

"Sam wrote:

Sorry, I have to disagree. We were just competitive enough in some of the games to be close, and not get blown away for the most part in other games, but, I maintain that when push came to shove, our team had too many weak spots that could be exploited for us to win. Even if we had scored with 1 min left in any game, I don't believe for a minute that we'd stop the other team from scoring. We got lucky with our one win.

fair enough.:ffic: