Help a "falling" Christian

"Pagan wrote:

You missed the point. If something is wrong with their brains, it could be considered the brain going haywire...and not some force making them that way.

The "**** happening" part refers to the brain malfunctioning.

No I got your point, my point is even if you just say its a brain malfunction, I think you can define that as evil and not just a malfunction. You are trying to categorize all things one might define as evil, as just one large cluster ****, I don't think thats accurate.

"Pagan wrote:

How can I ask? Quite easily bro.

Things happen. **** happens. Doesn't necessarily mean "evil". A madman kills 8 people in a beer factory in Connecticut. Evil? Why?

Let me explain. The human brain is like a computer, right? When a PC goes haywire and deletes all your files, is it evil or the work of some "devil"? No. **** happens.

The brain is the same way, it can malfunction. Sorry, I don't think it's "evil" or that there's some cosmic battle going on between the two forces.

What would be the purpose of such a battle? Really, I mean think about it. Pretty much it would be like saying that everything that is happening is the result of some supernatural **** measuring contest between all-powerful beings, no?

It seems what you are arguing is semantics regarding a definition of evil not promoting the discussion and the portion I edited and bolded is so insulting I don't think we should even continue this exchange.

Legitimate question here...isn't saying that unless you accept Jesus you will not be saved sort of like relying on fear?

Which is why I never say it. Even then it could be viewed as somone's loving attempt at helping another.

I must say after the above, I have my doubts as to whether this is even a legitimate question! Pagan, for me that crossed a line big time!

Ohio, I didn't mean to offend you. It was an analogy. When two opposing factions go against each other it's called that. You can't tell me you you've never heard the expression.

And yes, it was a legit question. If you choose not to continue discussing I understand.

Yes, Pagan, I have heard the expression and certainly understand its meaning. Using it in reference to God was what I found unacceptable.

Let's move on.

As to the question...I don't use the phrase, though it is certainly in use in parts of American Protestantism. I dislike it because it seems to require my assistance being added to Christ's work for salvation. To me that is unbiblical and thus I avoid it. As I said, those who do use it would claim it to be a loving act of concern though I can see its problem with "scaring" folks into a relationship. That is always a poor way of doing things in my opinion. Faith should never be "fire insurance". It is meant to be a living relationship now and for all time.

"Pagan wrote:

How can I ask? Quite easily bro.

Things happen. **** happens. Doesn't necessarily mean "evil". A madman kills 8 people in a beer factory in Connecticut. Evil? Why?

Let me explain. The human brain is like a computer, right? When a PC goes haywire and deletes all your files, is it evil or the work of some "devil"? No. **** happens.

The brain is the same way, it can malfunction. Sorry, I don't think it's "evil" or that there's some cosmic battle going on between the two forces.

What would be the purpose of such a battle? Really, I mean think about it. Pretty much it would be like saying that everything that is happening is the result of some supernatural dick measuring contest between all-powerful beings, no?


Legitimate question here...isn't saying that unless you accept Jesus you will not be saved sort of like relying on fear?

I wouldn't say the human brain is like a computer. I would say your body is like a computer. Your brain tells your body what to do. Similar to how a user tells a computer what to do. A computer does not make it's own decisions. Just like your body does not make it's own decisions (in the sense that we are talking about). This really isn't a huge issue, just I thought your analogy was a tad flawed...

I really don't believe the brain just "goes haywire" because there likely is a reason behind it. Whether it be evil, that's up for discussion. Everyone is different and is brought up different. Different things can trip different triggers. I believe it's very tough to dismiss anything. IMO "**** happens" seems to be a cop out to giving a reason for something. I guess that could just me be though.

"GridIronKing34 wrote:

A computer does not make it's own decisions.

I really don't believe the brain just "goes haywire" because there likely is a reason behind it.

Yet.

And sometimes things just don't have a reason - they just are that way. I don't know if this conversation is one of them, but with what I believe the reasons are kind of latent until they're stumbled upon. Good/Evil? Maybe maybe not.

But "Why/Why not?" Definitely.

"unluckyluciano wrote:

No I got your point, my point is even if you just say its a brain malfunction, I think you can define that as evil and not just a malfunction. You are trying to categorize all things one might define as evil, as just one large cluster ****, I don't think thats accurate.

really? Well you could, I wouldn't really find that accurate.

Evil doesn't exist, it is a concept. Evil also changes due to who perceives the action. I might not be Hitler, however I highly doubt he was stroking his cat and manically laughing as he ate his baby soup. This might be a jump, however I would bet that from his perspective he was a good guy.

However that doesn't really change the fact that evil is a concept. It doesn't exist. There is no just thing as evil, period. The thing about concepts is that they do not actually exist. They are ways to explain the world and in many ways concepts help a lot. The concept of zero for instance really helps.

When you categorize something as evil, you are creating evil.

"GridIronKing34 wrote:

I wouldn't say the human brain is like a computer. I would say your body is like a computer. Your brain tells your body what to do. Similar to how a user tells a computer what to do. A computer does not make it's own decisions. Just like your body does not make it's own decisions (in the sense that we are talking about). This really isn't a huge issue, just I thought your analogy was a tad flawed...

I really don't believe the brain just "goes haywire" because there likely is a reason behind it. Whether it be evil, that's up for discussion. Everyone is different and is brought up different. Different things can trip different triggers. I believe it's very tough to dismiss anything. IMO "**** happens" seems to be a cop out to giving a reason for something. I guess that could just me be though.

That is not true. It works both ways. Sometimes your brain tells your body what to do and sometimes your body tells your brain what to do.

I was watching something that talked about monotheistic versus polytheistic religions and how they affect the mindset. One thing that monotheistic religions had that polytheism tended to not have was the idea of "good versus evil". In monotheistic religions there is generally one good god and then some opposite force against that god. Which leads to more of a black and white type view of the world. In polytheistic religions they didn't have such a good versus evil because their gods were kind of dicks and kind of nice, so their view of the world had many more shades of gray. For example with the good god, he is generally the god of creation, while the evil force does all the destruction, while in a polytheistic culture the god of creation could also be the god of destruction.

Which I think leads to this idea of Hilter just being evil, or people just being evil. I read conversations about Chris Benoit who murdered his wife and kids, in the name of God and people were talking about how steroids or brain damage could be the cause of his act. I remember one person who mentioned the fact that steroids and brain damage were just an excuse and that Chris Benoit was evil.

I have come to the conclusion that one of the negatives of monotheism was the creation of good versus evil as it creates black and white thinking.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

really? Well you could, I wouldn't really find that accurate.

Evil doesn't exist, it is a concept. Evil also changes due to who perceives the action. I might not be Hitler, however I highly doubt he was stroking his cat and manically laughing as he ate his baby soup. This might be a jump, however I would bet that from his perspective he was a good guy.

However that doesn't really change the fact that evil is a concept. It doesn't exist. There is no just thing as evil, period. The thing about concepts is that they do not actually exist. They are ways to explain the world and in many ways concepts help a lot. The concept of zero for instance really helps.

When you categorize something as evil, you are creating evil.

No one said its not a concept. Evil exists in so far as it is used to describe something. By your argument we could argue all language is inaccurate as language is after all based on random sounds made to be the standard.

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

Yes, Pagan, I have heard the expression and certainly understand its meaning. Using it in reference to God was what I found unacceptable.

Again, wasn't meant to be insulting. There are times when things are going wrong for me that I say my Goddess must be on the rag, so I wasn't thinking something like that as offensive.

Let's move on.

As to the question...I don't use the phrase, though it is certainly in use in parts of American Protestantism. I dislike it because it seems to require my assistance being added to Christ's work for salvation. To me that is unbiblical and thus I avoid it. As I said, those who do use it would claim it to be a loving act of concern though I can see its problem with "scaring" folks into a relationship. That is always a poor way of doing things in my opinion. Faith should never be "fire insurance". It is meant to be a living relationship now and for all time.
That's where I sometimes have a problem. I understand that your faith tells you to spread the word, but when people attempt that with me and I nicely explain to them that I'm happy in my path and they come back with that...well, loving concern or not it does come off as obnoxious, insulting, and elitist. As if what I believe is irrelevant.

I didn't think you'd use that tactic. I've always said you were a good egg. ;)

"unluckyluciano wrote:

No one said its not a concept. Evil exists in so far as it is used to describe something. By your argument we could argue all language is inaccurate as language is after all based on random sounds made to be the standard.

Evil exists because you use it to describe something. If you didn't use the concept of evil, evil wouldn't exist. Evil only exists in this world because people believe in it.

We could argue that and it doesn't make my point less.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

really? Well you could, I wouldn't really find that accurate.

Evil doesn't exist, it is a concept. Evil also changes due to who perceives the action. I might not be Hitler, however I highly doubt he was stroking his cat and manically laughing as he ate his baby soup. This might be a jump, however I would bet that from his perspective he was a good guy.

However that doesn't really change the fact that evil is a concept. It doesn't exist. There is no just thing as evil, period. The thing about concepts is that they do not actually exist. They are ways to explain the world and in many ways concepts help a lot. The concept of zero for instance really helps.

When you categorize something as evil, you are creating evil.

I disagree but then that is likely a question of faith. When I say evil is real, I say that as a Christian which is where Ohiophin was coming from. I firmly believe that but it is clearly not provable beyond observation. Observation while the basis of scientific inquiry is not "fact". Yet the only rational way for me to understand Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, and all the rest is to accept evil as a reality in the world.

"Pagan wrote:

Again, wasn't meant to be insulting. There are times when things are going wrong for me that I say my Goddess must be on the rag, so I wasn't thinking something like that as offensive.


That's where I sometimes have a problem. I understand that your faith tells you to spread the word, but when people attempt that with me and I nicely explain to them that I'm happy in my path and they come back with that...well, loving concern or not it does come off as obnoxious, insulting, and elitist. As if what I believe is irrelevant.

I didn't think you'd use that tactic. I've always said you were a good egg. ;)

But if I said it as a person outside your faith, I think it would be understood as insulting.
Thanks for the kind remark!

Thank you

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

I disagree but then that is likely a question of faith. When I say evil is real, I say that as a Christian which is where Ohiophin was coming from. I firmly believe that but it is clearly not provable beyond observation. Observation while the basis of scientific inquiry is not "fact". Yet the only rational way for me to understand Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, and all the rest is to accept evil as a reality in the world.

You disagree, yet you also proved my point. Evil, isn't real, it is something you believe and you use to to rational way to understand this world.

There is nothing wrong with that. I can make the same argument with the concept of zero. Since it zero doesn't exist, however it is used rationally in mathematics to have an understanding of the world around us.

Myself I do not believe in evil. To me saying someone is evil means that no matter what environment they are in that they will just come out as evil. For instance if WWI never happened and Hitler made it as an artist, I do not believe he would go around slaughtering Jews on his spare time.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

Evil exists because you use it to describe something. If you didn't use the concept of evil, evil wouldn't exist. Evil only exists in this world because people believe in it.

We could argue that and it doesn't make my point less.

Then again everything only exists because we describe it as such. If we didn't believe in evil it does not mean there would not be events which can be described as evil, or bad, or whatever you want to call it. Again you are arguing things only exist because the language exists.

our conceptions of good and evil may not be entirely accurate

we analyze these things as if they will be true for all time. all of the logical assumptions seem to be based on this. but the judeo-chrisitian tradition does not assert that conditions of our world will endure.

even if evil is a contruct and good is a construct, these things only exist in our own mind in not in the greater reality of god. he has a plan not yet realized. but we are not left alone with these constructs to fend for ourselves. presumably, a creator has left us with inspired text to give us direction upon which we are to exercise our free will. our morality in this world may not be "real" because we are not yet able to experience true goodness. we only have glimpses of these attributes

these arguments have to be seen as existing on different planes of existence or in a sense, other dimensions.

No judgments here, but to question a higher being, motivations or to question something or someone situationally is not faith.....

Faith is by definition belief without evidence.

Faith is something you truly own or do not own, entirely within you and the confines of your own heart and mind.

"unluckyluciano wrote:

Then again everything only exists because we describe it as such. If we didn't believe in evil it does not mean there would not be events which can be described as evil, or bad, or whatever you want to call it. Again you are arguing things only exist because the language exists.

I am saying that the events that you describe as evil are only evil because you believe it is evil or bad.

Concepts do not exist and only exist because language exists. If you say someone is evil, I understand what you mean by it, because I understand the concept of evil. That does not mean that the person is evil. From different perspectives the person could be good or just a person who did some stuff.

I do not believe evil is in this world because I do not believe in a cartoon/movie universe. Cobra is evil, the Joker is evil, people in the real world are just messed up

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I am saying that the events that you describe as evil are only evil because you believe it is evil or bad.

Concepts do not exist and only exist because language exists. If you say someone is evil, I understand what you mean by it, because I understand the concept of evil. That does not mean that the person is evil. From different perspectives the person could be good or just a person who did some stuff.

I do not believe evil is in this world because I do not believe in a cartoon/movie universe. Cobra is evil, the Joker is evil, people in the real world are just messed up

you only have a conception of evil because you have a conception of good.

my argument splits somewhere in the middle, but in a different way

true good is unknowable to us at this point. but i agree that is doenst mean they arent useful. without them we are left with nothing and can explain nothing

id like to hear what OhioPhin thinks about this thread

i have hit a bit of despair as well. i dont know of a church or group that views things quite the way i do outside of some christian philosophy. judaism is close, but problematic

im left with just my own faith, alone. that cant be right

"maynard wrote:

you only have a conception of evil because you have a conception of good.

my argument splits somewhere in the middle, but in a different way

true good is unknowable to us at this point. but i agree that is doenst mean they arent useful. without them we are left with nothing and can explain nothing

I do not believe that either. I believe that comes from the mindset that exists from a monotheistic point of view. I can have a concept of good without a concept of evil. The only difference would be I wouldn't really need the concept of good in comparison to evil. The concept that would exist would be good, and more good, and extremely good or lacking of good.

We do not live in a black/white universe. We can understand things without having the opposite of that thing existing in some form. There are many shades of gray.

Without "good or evil" we think of something different and things in an entirely new way. Take Hitler for example. It is very easy to just describe him as evil and be done with it. However Hitler is much more complex than just a person who wants to do evil things. World War II is much more complex than good versus evil. In fact looking at how people think of WWII and how Nazi's were evil, however the Japanese are an afterthought. What they did to China was just as bad as what the Nazi's did to the Jewish population. However when using the concept of evil people will use Nazi's and not the Japanese, even though they did put Chinese people in centrifuges just to see what would happen. We hunt Nazi's and Americans actually protect the Japanese war criminals because we wanted their horrible research.

Somehow General Hideki Tojo escapes when people talk about evil people. Same with Columbus who is described as evil to the natives to this country due to the fact that he killed a lot of them. Andrew Jackson is another example of someone who we celebrate who a lot of people think is evil.

The older I have gotten the more useless I have seen the concept of evil. In the real world it does not exist. It is really good for cartoons and movies.

you only know a line is crooked because you have seen a straight line

actually, evil described is the absence of good. so in a way you arguing semantics

i would never assert black and white for looking at the universe. i dont need any convincing and as i suggested, the true meanings of the terms are actually unknowable to us

"maynard wrote:

id like to hear what OhioPhin thinks about this thread

i have hit a bit of despair as well. i dont know of a church or group that views things quite the way i do outside of some christian philosophy. judaism is close, but problematic

im left with just my own faith, alone. that cant be right

This thread has gotten more of a response than I expected. There have been some very good points made, and I respect everyone's opinions. Thank you to all who have responded to this thread.

There have been a few responses that really have me thinking that I'm looking at this situation in the wrong way. Maybe this preacher was rewarded with his treasures in heaven, but in my eyes, his wife and children will be punished for the rest of their lives.

I still have many questions, but I don't want to insult anyone or open this forum up for these questions. I have gained alot from reading all of your posts, and now I have some more things weighing on my mind.

To Ohiophinphan, I sent you a PM about where I live.

"OhioPhin wrote:

This thread has gotten more of a response than I expected. There have been some very good points made, and I respect everyone's opinions. Thank you to all who have responded to this thread.

There have been a few responses that really have me thinking that I'm looking at this situation in the wrong way. Maybe this preacher was rewarded with his treasures in heaven, but in my eyes, his wife and children will be punished for the rest of their lives.

I still have many questions, but I don't want to insult anyone or open this forum up for these questions. I have gained alot from reading all of your posts, and now I have some more things weighing on my mind.

To Ohiophinphan, I sent you a PM about where I live.

Got it and responded. We are 2-3 hours apart I think

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I am saying that the events that you describe as evil are only evil because you believe it is evil or bad.

Concepts do not exist and only exist because language exists. If you say someone is evil, I understand what you mean by it, because I understand the concept of evil. That does not mean that the person is evil. From different perspectives the person could be good or just a person who did some stuff.

I do not believe evil is in this world because I do not believe in a cartoon/movie universe. Cobra is evil, the Joker is evil, people in the real world are just messed up

I understand that but you are saying.Yes it is a human concept. Its basically the same as saying common sense. It is very relative to the person just what common sense is. All things, language and otherwise, is conceptual, as all of it comes from human concepts. Math for instance, although fitting, is conceptual, in fact some cultures counted in very different ways, with different bases, etc. It does not change the fact that the universe exists on mathmatical concepts. In other words there is description and what actually exists.
Evil is a concept yes, but it does not mean acts which are evil, or bad, or seen as unethical wouldn't exist.