Gun Advice

"The_Dark_Knight wrote:

Before this thread gets closed for becoming political...

Tony, I don't think the mass shootings fix is that easy. Something has happened in this country. Something has happened that has made mass shootings become more prevalent and commonplace. I mean let's be honest, gun laws are much more stringent than when I was a kid. Guns were much more commonplace when I was a kid and yet, mass shootings didn't happen. People weren't as wacko as they apparently are today...so what in the hell has happened?

I PERSONALLY feel that if a good hard look was taken at these incidents, it would be discovered these shooters were diagnosed ADD/HD and while they were still children, with an undeveloped mind, pumped with brain chemistry altering drugs such as Ritelan and Adderal (sp?) affecting their brain's full development...and somewhere along the way, some of these folks have just snapped.

We've got to find the SOURCE of what's causing people to snap. THAT'S the problem that needs to be addressed!!

That component you're missing from the equation is social media. When you were in school, you saw people 6-8 hours a day and then went home to a completely different life. The jerks in school were forgotten and you were playing with neighborhood kids, riding bikes, etc. But now, those moments are Tweeted and commented and a stupid little incident becomes a week-long bullying session that only keeps increasing over time. Kids have no idea how to deal with that and it's why we have more depressed kids than ever before.

On a NATIONAL level, I think I saw a stat the other week that around 1 in 3 kids suffer from depression- one third of the teenage nation is your potential shooter pool. Over 90% of those kids are never diagnosed or treated...which means they deal with it however they can. It DOES NOT take a truly crazy kid like mine to make that list.

If you want the plain answer, it's society causing this by (1) giving kids smartphones at 12 years old (2) having parents/teachers that have no idea how much kids are being effected and (3) having a broken mental health system in the USA. Simply put, kids are being slaughtered because they're bullying the heck out of peers without ever even realizing that they are devastating their lives.

I can call you a "stupid jerk" in this thread and you might think, "No I'm not, Key is a stupid jerk for saying that." Then you log off and everything is forgotten. But on Facebook or Snapchat with kids that have 2,000+ friends, they all chime in and keep that moment alive...adding insult to injury that carries on for weeks. Next thing you know, kids are sneering in the hallways, making little comments when you're not looking, etc....and this kid is suddenly in social hell feeling like the walls are closing in and their life is over. All from one meaningless initial comment that the person saying it didn't think twice about. But that's our society today for teens- those nothing moments can feel like life-changing obstacles.

Is it a shock that less than 1/10th of 1 percent turn to violence? I would expect that number to actually be higher.

"KeyFin wrote:

That component you're missing from the equation is social media. When you were in school, you saw people 6-8 hours a day and then went home to a completely different life. The jerks in school were forgotten and you lived life. But now, those moments are Tweeted and commented and a stupid little incident becomes a week-long bullying session that only keeps increasing over time. Kids have no idea how to deal with that and it's why we have more depressed kids than ever before.

On a NATIONAL level, I think I saw a stat the other week that around 1 in 3 kids suffer from depression- one third of the nation is your potential shooter pool. Over 90% of those kids are never diagnosed or treated...which means they deal with it however they can. It DOES NOT take a truly crazy kid like mine to make that list.

If you want the plain answer, it's society causing this by (1) giving kids smartphones at 12 years old (2) having parents/teachers that have no idea how much kids are being effected and (3) having a broken mental health system in the USA. Simply put, kids are being slaughtered because they're bullying the heck out of peers without ever even realizing that they are devastating their lives.

I can call you a "stupid jerk" in this thread and you might think, "No I'm not, Key is a stupid jerk." Then you log off and everything is forgotten. But on Facebook or Snapchat with kids that have 2,000+ friends, they all chime in and keep that moment alive...adding insult to injury that carries on for weeks. Next thing you know, kids are sneering in the hallways, making little comments when you're not looking, etc....and this kid is suddenly in social hell feeling like the walls are closing in and their life is over. All from one meaningless initial comment that the person saying it didn't think twice about. But that's our society today for teens- those nothing moments can feel like life-changing obstacles.

It is a shock that less than 1/10th of 1 percent turn to violence? I would expect that number to actually be higher.

Great post Key...

I'll give a quick example- my 16 year old Victoria (she's the normal, completely balanced, very mature kid) was at the University of South Carolina last week on an invite for a music clinic- she's one of the best teen sax players in the state and it was a very big honor. And on that Friday, she get this text reading, "Why'd you tell on Brian and get him suspended?"

Well, she has no idea what this text is about and figures the message was meant for someone else. So she ignores it. But then she gets four more messages from other people calling her a dumb b-word, a sellout, a snitch, etc. Then one of her close friends calls her and explain that a kid did a crazy school prank, one of the students showed a picture of it to a teacher and that person had to bring her phone to the principal for evidence. When people started questioning this girl about why she turned the boy in, she panicked and said, "I didn't do it- Victoria did!" It just so happened that Victoria was the only one not there to contradict this girl, which is why she pointed the finger at my kid.

Suddenly the whole school is trashing her on social media for getting this kid in trouble. Her friends don't even want to talk to her anymore, people are being total jerks to her...and this has ZERO to do with Victoria. She ended up getting into arguments with several of her best friends over it and before long, she's crying her eyes out saying that everyone hates her and she didn't do anything.

The following Monday, she went to school and was confronted by around a dozen students total in her first class, and she had zero idea how to handle it. After all, she couldn't go to the teachers because that's why people are giving her so much crap to begin with...even though she didn't do it. She ended up having a panic attack and the school sent her to the office, and Victoria refused to go to school Tuesday and Wednesday....she had a migraine both days. By Thursday she was asking if she could quit band and be home-schooled...that's how much it affected her in such a short period of time.

By this week it's all blown over; I had a conversation with the principal and he in-turn had the band director absolutely go off on all the students. Nobody will say anything else to Victoria about this but at the same time, I knew from dealing with my other kid that you have to attack these kinds of things head-on. I didn't wait for my kid to figure it out because she's not supposed to at 16.

That's what our kids deal with every single day though- little, stupid stuff that snowballs on them in a matter of hours. And when kids get stuck without answers, they just retract from everything around them and become depressed loners with zero social skills. But they're just regular kids that have their optimism stolen and that's what leads to all this other stuff- the suicides, the shootings, etc. Think about this- your teen knows someone who's killed themselves at their school...it's that common these days.

And it all starts with something as dumb as the story I just told- that's step one in the path that can potentially lead to death.

"KeyFin wrote:

I'll give a quick example- my 16 year old Victoria (she's the normal, completely balanced, very mature kid) was at the University of South Carolina last week on an invite for a music clinic- she's one of the best teen sax players in the state and it was a big honor. And on Friday, she get this text reading, "Why'd you tell on Brian and get him suspended?"

Well, she has no idea what this text is about and figures the message was meant for someone else, so she ignores it. But then she gets four more messages from other people calling her a dumb *****, a sellout, a snitch, etc. Then one of her close friends call her and explain that a kid did a funny school prank, one of the students showed a picture of it to a teacher and that person had to bring her phone to the principal for evidence. When people started questioning this girl about why she turned the boy in, she panicked and said, "I didn't do it- Victoria did!" It just so happened that Victoria was the only one not there to contradict this girl, which is why she pointed the finger at my kid.

Of course, my kid wasn't even at school so it was impossible for her to be the one who told, but that didn't matter. Suddenly the whole school is trashing her on social media for getting this kid in trouble. Her friends don't even want to talk to her anymore, people are being total jerks to her...and this has ZERO to do with Victoria. She ended up getting into arguments with several of her best friends over it and before long, she's crying her eyes out saying that everyone hates her and she didn't do anything.

The following Monday, she went to school and was confronted by around a dozen students total in her first class, and she had zero idea how to handle it. After all, she couldn't go to the teachers because that's why people are giving her so much crap over to begin with...even though she didn't do it. She ended up having a panic attack and the school sent her to the office, and Victoria refused to go to school Tuesday and Wednesday....she had a migraine both days. By Thursday she was asking if she could quit band and be home-schooled...that's how much it affected her in such a short period of time.

By this week it's all blown over; I had a conversation with the principal and he in-turn had the band director absolutely go off on all the students. Nobody will say anything else to Victoria about this but at the same time, I knew from dealing with my other kid that you have to attack these kinds of things head-on. I didn't wait for my kid to figure it out because she's not supposed to at 16.

That's what our kids deal with every single day though- little, stupid stuff that snowballs on them in a matter of hours. And when kids get stuck without answers, they just retract from everything around them and become depressed loners with zero social skills. But they're just regular kids that have their optimism stolen and that's what leads to all this other stuff- the suicides, the shootings, etc. Think about this- your teen knows someone who's killed themselves at their school...it's that common these days.

And it all starts with something as dumb as the story I just told- that's step one in the path that can potentially lead to death.

That's terrible.

And the fact that those little dumb fuck's are regurgitating street comments about "snitching" is half the problem.

These young kids today are generally dumber than shit. It is a monkey see monkey do age, and with social media?? That is a BAD thing.

Like 3 high schools in my area are staging a "walk out" to protest gun control. Hey..I get the point....a teenager who can legally buy an automatic weapon is flat out STUPID.

But fact is, they will get what they want...ATTENTION....then the following week will forget it ever happened when they find out Brad was cheating on Brianna with Tucker.

"Fin-O wrote:

That's terrible.

And the fact that those little dumb ****'s are regurgitating street comments about "snitching" is half the problem.

These young kids today are generally dumber than ****. It is a monkey see monkey do age, and with social media?? That is a BAD thing.

Like 3 high schools in my area are staging a "walk out" to protest gun control. Hey..I get the point....a teenager who can legally buy an automatic weapon is flat out STUPID.

But fact is, they will get what they want...ATTENTION....then the following week will forget it ever happened when they find out Brad was cheating on Brianna with Tucker.

Oh, don't even get my started on snitching, LOL. The opposite of snitching is accepting crime/violence in your area...it boggles my mind why people protect bad people doing bad things. To me, snitching is being an honest, responsible citizen.

The part that bothers me about what you said is that some of those people protesting could be the ones that drove the shooter to doing something so stupid in the first place. Nobody takes personal responsibility anymore though and it's always someone else's fault, someone else's problem.

Our teens and technology are creating this environment though where it's so easy to bully others and just forget about it ten seconds later- that's a big part of what has to change and it's why Facebook is nose-diving in popularity (millions of users per month are leaving- almost 10% of the total user base is gone since December). The mental health side has to improve drastically as well though- it's BS my kid had no safe option to turn to at school.

By the way, she's mad at me for contacting the principal since her whole class got screamed at and lectured- now the students hate me for it as well. Not that I care, mind you....but that's today's mentality of the youth.

"KeyFin wrote:

Oh, don't even get my started on snitching, LOL. The opposite of snitching is accepting crime/violence in your area...it boggles my mind why people protect bad people doing bad things. To me, snitching is being an honest, responsible citizen.

The part that bothers me about what you said is that some of those people protesting could be the ones that drove the shooter to doing something so stupid in the first place. Nobody takes personal responsibility anymore though and it's always someone else's fault, someone else's problem.

Our teens and technology are creating this environment though where it's so easy to bully others and just forget about it ten seconds later- that's a big part of what has to change and it's why Facebook is nose-diving in popularity (millions of users per month are leaving- almost 10% of the total user base is gone since December). The mental health side has to improve drastically as well though- it's BS my kid had no safe option to turn to at school.

By the way, she's mad at me for contacting the principal since her whole class got screamed at and lectured- now the students hate me for it as well. Not that I care, mind you....but that's today's mentality of the youth.

Feel for ya brother....but you did the right thing.

I have a teenage daughter just a little younger and I certainly wouldn't sit on my hands and see what happened. Good for you, and hopefully those little losers find something else to fulfill the necessary drama in their lives soon.

"KeyFin wrote:

That component you're missing from the equation is social media. When you were in school, you saw people 6-8 hours a day and then went home to a completely different life. The jerks in school were forgotten and you were playing with neighborhood kids, riding bikes, etc. But now, those moments are Tweeted and commented and a stupid little incident becomes a week-long bullying session that only keeps increasing over time. Kids have no idea how to deal with that and it's why we have more depressed kids than ever before.

On a NATIONAL level, I think I saw a stat the other week that around 1 in 3 kids suffer from depression- one third of the teenage nation is your potential shooter pool. Over 90% of those kids are never diagnosed or treated...which means they deal with it however they can. It DOES NOT take a truly crazy kid like mine to make that list.

If you want the plain answer, it's society causing this by (1) giving kids smartphones at 12 years old (2) having parents/teachers that have no idea how much kids are being effected and (3) having a broken mental health system in the USA. Simply put, kids are being slaughtered because they're bullying the heck out of peers without ever even realizing that they are devastating their lives.

I can call you a "stupid jerk" in this thread and you might think, "No I'm not, Key is a stupid jerk for saying that." Then you log off and everything is forgotten. But on Facebook or Snapchat with kids that have 2,000+ friends, they all chime in and keep that moment alive...adding insult to injury that carries on for weeks. Next thing you know, kids are sneering in the hallways, making little comments when you're not looking, etc....and this kid is suddenly in social hell feeling like the walls are closing in and their life is over. All from one meaningless initial comment that the person saying it didn't think twice about. But that's our society today for teens- those nothing moments can feel like life-changing obstacles.

Is it a shock that less than 1/10th of 1 percent turn to violence? I would expect that number to actually be higher.

1,000% THIS!!!

My oldest is an amazing young lady, I won't go on a daddy bragging binge but trust me, she's top 1%. Volunteers at the zoo and in her school, has two jobs, top of her class,, I don't know how we did it, but she's a damn good kid. OK maybe a little bragging :cool0:
And she comes home and cries because her peers are some of the cruelest most unkind people in the world. It seems like our National Pastime has become punking each other, breaking someone else down in order to be cool. And kids are vicious, like piranha one sniff of blood in the water and they school up and feast.
They are being trained to divide, to fear the others, devour to survive. That's not what made America great.

"Fin-O wrote:

That's terrible.

And the fact that those little dumb ****'s are regurgitating street comments about "snitching" is half the problem.

These young kids today are generally dumber than ****. It is a monkey see monkey do age, and with social media?? That is a BAD thing.

Like 3 high schools in my area are staging a "walk out" to protest gun control. Hey..I get the point....a teenager who can legally buy an automatic weapon is flat out STUPID.

But fact is, they will get what they want...ATTENTION....then the following week will forget it ever happened when they find out Brad was cheating on Brianna with Tucker.

Exactly. I feel for these kids, I really do, but half of them are the reason these kids go insane. As Key has written, social media is a huge problem. (In fact, something I thought about, but not to the extent since Key wrote what he did) I can understand their frustrations and sadness, but they are kids and know jack shit about how to deal with this problem. The fact that they are walking out of school is absurd. The fact that they have been allowed to walk out of school is mindboggling.

At the other end I think an elephant in the room that no one wants to address is this: (Now, hear me out before you skewer me)

It used to be that the "different" kids were told, "Stop being that way" or "If you keep acting like this you'll never have friends". Nowadays these same kids are told, "It's OK baby, you be what you want to be. You don't have to change for anybody." And 1 out of 100 of these "weird" kids are really insane and are being told they are "normal" and it's OK. I hope some of you understand my point, I don't think I'm explaining it well. Anyhow, I'm against bullying, just in case someone throws that out there. I tell my kids all the time, "Being a nice person is the greatest accomplishment you can achieve. I'll never be more proud of you than the time you befriend the kid with no friends. And if I ever hear of you bullying a person I will never be more disappointed."

"danmarino wrote:

Exactly. I feel for these kids, I really do, but half of them are the reason these kids go insane. As Key has written, social media is a huge problem. (In fact, something I thought about, but not to the extent since Key wrote what he did) I can understand their frustrations and sadness, but they are kids and know jack **** about how to deal with this problem. The fact that they are walking out of school is absurd. The fact that they have been allowed to walk out of school is mindboggling.

At the other end I think an elephant in the room that no one wants to address is this: (Now, hear me out before you skewer me)

It used to be that the "different" kids were told, "Stop being that way" or "If you keep acting like this you'll never have friends". Nowadays these same kids are told, "It's OK baby, you be what you want to be. You don't have to change for anybody." And 1 out of 100 of these "weird" kids are really insane and are being told they are "normal" and it's OK. I hope some of you understand my point, I don't think I'm explaining it well. Anyhow, I'm against bullying, just in case someone throws that out there. I tell my kids all the time, "Being a nice person is the greatest accomplishment you can achieve. I'll never be more proud of you than the time you befriend the kid with no friends. And if I ever hear of you bullying a person I will never be more disappointed."

I completely agree with you- my older kid knew she had problems by 13-14 and all she wanted to know was, "Who am I? Why do I feel this way sometimes?" All the doctors could tell her was that she'd have to be on medications her entire life to balance out the ups and downs. And what the heck were we supposed to say?

I was the realist saying if you treat your friends/family that way, they won't stick around- you need to apologize and learn from this. My daughter hated me for always being the "mean parent" but I don't regret it one bit...I wasn't going to lie to her or sugarcoat anything. She had to work harder than everyone else and there was no way around that.

"Puka-head wrote:

1,000% THIS!!!

My oldest is an amazing young lady, I won't go on a daddy bragging binge but trust me, she's top 1%. Volunteers at the zoo and in her school, has two jobs, top of her class,, I don't know how we did it, but she's a damn good kid. OK maybe a little bragging :cool0:
And she comes home and cries because her peers are some of the cruelest most unkind people in the world. It seems like our National Pastime has become punking each other, breaking someone else down in order to be cool. And kids are vicious, like piranha one sniff of blood in the water and they school up and feast.
They are being trained to divide, to fear the others, devour to survive. That's not what made America great.

Same here- my kid was being honored at one of the best music colleges in the nation as the best sax player in the state for her age...and six days later she wanted to quit band completely. And I can't help but think how much of the hate from other kids was jealousy- they don't see the 2-4 hours a day our kid voluntarily practices so she can be the best. Instead of encouraging her though, they all just knocked her down and ruined what should have been an awesome weekend. It makes me so darn mad but that's how kids are today- social media has made them all superficial know-it-all brats.

My kid got through it though and she's stronger now because of it. All I can say to everyone else is to watch your kids closely, be that parent who combs through their phones every few weeks and don't hesitate to take action if you see something wrong. When it comes to social media and bullying, the best defense is a strong offense...you have to take charge and say "this isn't happening".

Your kid has likely bullied others as well without even realizing it, so that's definitely a good conversation to have about what it can do to someone long-term in this new social world.

I just think a lot of these kids feel alienated and isolated, without a voice, in real life. When you introduce social media, it's like that reality x2. It's just an ocean to have your voice drowned out. These kids have no outlet, whether that's a productive hobby or someone they have enough trust in to talk to. Unfortunately, they feel like the only voice they have is a loud, violent one.

This is just a general feeling I have towards these mass shootings, none of this is rooted in any fact. Just thought I'd clarify that.

I don't think there is a single solution to gun deaths.
I think the social media issue is real and I have no idea how to solve it.
I don't believe longer sentences would have any effect. Every study I've seen on the deterrent effect of longer sentences says they don't have a deterrent effect. If I were deciding whether to rob a bank I might consider if it's worth 5 or 10 years of my life if caught, but criminals don't tend to be rational actors.
I do think making it more difficult to buy guns would have an effect. That approach seems to have worked in Japan although it is extreme. Getting a gun there requires a very rigorous mental health check, classes, etc., and you have to renew it every three years. They have very few shootings and presumably far fewer people with guns. This would probably have an indirect impact on the social media issue. It wouldn't solve it but it would limit how often the gun would be the tool resorted to.
I don't think arming teachers will have a deterrent effect for similar reasons as the longer sentences. It may have the effect of providing protection, but it will be limited. As I stated at the beginning of this thread, guns don't make people safer. I used to work at a City Attorney's office and many of our cases involved defending officers involved in shootings. The police studies found that officers in stressful situations usually hit with 17% of their bullets. Regardless of how great their proficiency was at the range, the real world reality was pretty low. Obviously, officers train/practice much more than a typical teacher would. So I would expect that teachers in a shooting situation would be spraying bullets that would potentially hit something other than their target something greater than 83% of the time.
Restricting assault rifles might have a very limited impact. I don't know that there's any additional lethality, but I do think it fuels into the soldier fantasy of the kind of person committing mass shootings. It probably wouldn't have any effect on the other types of shootings.

Canada has a lot of guns and none of this problem.

The problem is inherent in Americans. Our values obviously don't mesh well with near unchecked gun ownership.

We are like children. If we can't handle the responsibility, and we clearly can not, then we should have them taken from us, until we learn how to handle the responsibility. We brought it on ourselves.

"Fin D wrote:

Canada has a lot of guns and none of this problem.

The problem is inherent in Americans. Our values obviously don't mesh well with near unchecked gun ownership.

We are like children. If we can't handle the responsibility, and we clearly can not, then we should have them taken from us, until we learn how to handle the responsibility. We brought it on ourselves.

Less than one out of every 3 people in Canada have a gun. Compared to the US that's not even close.

However, Canada has had it's fair number of school and mass shootings. Canada's population is about 1/10th of the US population. California has more people living in it than Canada.

Saying that, the US definitely has a culture problem and that culture is slowly finding it's way up North.

"danmarino wrote:

Less than one out of every 3 people in Canada have a gun. Compared to the US that's not even close.

However, Canada has had it's fair number of school and mass shootings. Canada's population is about 1/10th of the US population. California has more people living in it than Canada.

Saying that, the US definitely has a culture problem and that culture is slowly finding it's way up North.

We have a member here that's a teacher in Canada and it's been extremely tough on them with massive budget cuts, the government trying to cancel pensions, not paying them for lunch-supervision and before/after school, etc. Their govt has even gone as far as calling the teachers greedy crooks for asking to be paid what the previous administrations guaranteed them, so it's not a good situation at all.

I don't know anything about shootings up there...but I do know that the teachers aren't happy and really worried about job security.

"rafael wrote:

I don't think there is a single solution to gun deaths.
I think the social media issue is real and I have no idea how to solve it.
I don't believe longer sentences would have any effect. Every study I've seen on the deterrent effect of longer sentences says they don't have a deterrent effect. If I were deciding whether to rob a bank I might consider if it's worth 5 or 10 years of my life if caught, but criminals don't tend to be rational actors.
I do think making it more difficult to buy guns would have an effect. That approach seems to have worked in Japan although it is extreme. Getting a gun there requires a very rigorous mental health check, classes, etc., and you have to renew it every three years. They have very few shootings and presumably far fewer people with guns. This would probably have an indirect impact on the social media issue. It wouldn't solve it but it would limit how often the gun would be the tool resorted to.
I don't think arming teachers will have a deterrent effect for similar reasons as the longer sentences. It may have the effect of providing protection, but it will be limited. As I stated at the beginning of this thread, guns don't make people safer. I used to work at a City Attorney's office and many of our cases involved defending officers involved in shootings. The police studies found that officers in stressful situations usually hit with 17% of their bullets. Regardless of how great their proficiency was at the range, the real world reality was pretty low. Obviously, officers train/practice much more than a typical teacher would. So I would expect that teachers in a shooting situation would be spraying bullets that would potentially hit something other than their target something greater than 83% of the time.
Restricting assault rifles might have a very limited impact. I don't know that there's any additional lethality, but I do think it fuels into the soldier fantasy of the kind of person committing mass shootings. It probably wouldn't have any effect on the other types of shootings.

Well, when you shoot/shoot at multiple targets, the sentencing stuff doesn't matter- you're getting natural life in prison or the death penalty. So I don't think those laws help at all.

I already talked about social media so I'll skip that one- I also believe that it's very real on a number of levels (not only the bullying, but making kids feel more alone, more depressed, etc.)

I also agree on the stricter gun laws (background checks, mental evaluations, delayed ownership, etc.) but I'm not sure what you do TODAY with so many guns already in circulation. And what do you do about used guns (pawn shops, person to person sales, etc)? That would be a monumental task to better regulate all of that. Maybe make a new law that if you don't re-register your firearms and take the classes/checks every 2-4 years, they're illegal? At least that would make the government a ton of money to use as a resource.

Or if we want to "pass the buck", make the NRA fully certify all legal gun owners and fine the crap out of them for every shooter that slips through the cracks.

I'm for arming teachers IF the teachers want to be armed. I would want those teachers to be police trained through summer and/or weekend courses and give them police powers, much like a part-time deputy or reserve officer. If we're going to do it, then let's do it all the way and make sure we have good, responsible marksmen inside schools.

For the assault rifles; I don't know the answer there- how do you remove something like that from the streets? Would that cause more school shootings short-term as people worry about the new laws? We don't have access to that kind of data to really know the answer there.

"rafael wrote:

I don't think there is a single solution to gun deaths.
I think the social media issue is real and I have no idea how to solve it.
I don't believe longer sentences would have any effect. Every study I've seen on the deterrent effect of longer sentences says they don't have a deterrent effect. If I were deciding whether to rob a bank I might consider if it's worth 5 or 10 years of my life if caught, but criminals don't tend to be rational actors.
I do think making it more difficult to buy guns would have an effect. That approach seems to have worked in Japan although it is extreme. Getting a gun there requires a very rigorous mental health check, classes, etc., and you have to renew it every three years. They have very few shootings and presumably far fewer people with guns. This would probably have an indirect impact on the social media issue. It wouldn't solve it but it would limit how often the gun would be the tool resorted to.
I don't think arming teachers will have a deterrent effect for similar reasons as the longer sentences. It may have the effect of providing protection, but it will be limited. As I stated at the beginning of this thread, guns don't make people safer. I used to work at a City Attorney's office and many of our cases involved defending officers involved in shootings. The police studies found that officers in stressful situations usually hit with 17% of their bullets. Regardless of how great their proficiency was at the range, the real world reality was pretty low. Obviously, officers train/practice much more than a typical teacher would. So I would expect that teachers in a shooting situation would be spraying bullets that would potentially hit something other than their target something greater than 83% of the time.
Restricting assault rifles might have a very limited impact. I don't know that there's any additional lethality, but I do think it fuels into the soldier fantasy of the kind of person committing mass shootings. It probably wouldn't have any effect on the other types of shootings.

Lots of great points here Raf.

There is certainly not a one solution fix for this problem.

I think the point of making the sentences longer is you don't have these criminals using jail as a revolving door. You shoot someone or commit armed robbery you should be doing more than the 3-8 years average. Put someone like that away for 15-20 and see if that's enough time to change them. It will also keep them off of the streets for 15-20 years which will in turn lower the number of people like that on the streets.

I have no problem with making people jump through hoops in order to purchase ANY type of firearm. I'd gladly give my guns to the state and go through a mandatory 1 year training and mental eval to get them back if it meant no schools would be shot up.

I think the point of arming teachers is just a catch all phrase. Basically, making schools gun free zones makes the students and teachers sitting ducks. I think the point is, make everyone know that there may be one or more people on campus armed. I do think this would be a deterrent. Another fact is, as a lone shooter is approaching his victims cowering in the corner, if even one of them had a gun they could at least TRY to defend themselves. Better than nothing, IMO.

One thing I disagree with you on is that guns don't make people safer. That is just flat out wrong. If they didn't cops wouldn't carry, air marshals wouldn't carry, military members wouldn't carry, and I wouldn't carry. Cops, for the most part, suck at shooting when in high pressure situations. I've touched on this in this thread. The problem isn't the stress, however, the problem is lack of training. 90% of all departments need more training. I shot just as well in real life as I did at the range. Why? Because Marines train and train and train and train some more.

I also touched on the AR empowering people. The media and movies have hyped this rifle like nothing else. I equate it to the pit bull situation. A lot of people think pit bulls are somehow stronger or ferocious than other dog breeds their size. Some think they have a "locking" jaw. None of this is true. However, what's happened is morons, due to the hype, get pit bulls and treat them badly and then the dogs bite people. Same thing with the AR. An AR is no more dangerous than any other type of firearm. In fact, a .22 handgun was used to kill multiple people in the VA Tech shooting...along with a 9mm handgun. And that was the deadliest school shooting in American history.

"danmarino wrote:

Lots of great points here Raf.

There is certainly not a one solution fix for this problem.

I think the point of making the sentences longer is you don't have these criminals using jail as a revolving door. You shoot someone or commit armed robbery you should be doing more than the 3-8 years average. Put someone like that away for 15-20 and see if that's enough time to change them. It will also keep them off of the streets for 15-20 years which will in turn lower the number of people like that on the streets.

I have no problem with making people jump through hoops in order to purchase ANY type of firearm. I'd gladly give my guns to the state and go through a mandatory 1 year training and mental eval to get them back if it meant no schools would be shot up.

I think the point of arming teachers is just a catch all phrase. Basically, making schools gun free zones makes the students and teachers sitting ducks. I think the point is, make everyone know that there may be one or more people on campus armed. I do think this would be a deterrent. Another fact is, as a lone shooter is approaching his victims cowering in the corner, if even one of them had a gun they could at least TRY to defend themselves. Better than nothing, IMO.

One thing I disagree with you on is that guns don't make people safer. That is just flat out wrong. If they didn't cops wouldn't carry, air marshals wouldn't carry, military members wouldn't carry, and I wouldn't carry. Cops, for the most part, suck at shooting when in high pressure situations. I've touched on this in this thread. The problem isn't the stress, however, the problem is lack of training. 90% of all departments need more training. I shot just as well in real life as I did at the range. Why? Because Marines train and train and train and train some more.

I also touched on the AR empowering people. The media and movies have hyped this rifle like nothing else. I equate it to the pit bull situation. A lot of people think pit bulls are somehow stronger or ferocious than other dog breeds their size. Some think they have a "locking" jaw. None of this is true. However, what's happened is morons, due to the hype, get pit bulls and treat them badly and then the dogs bite people. Same thing with the AR. An AR is no more dangerous than any other type of firearm. In fact, a .22 handgun was used to kill multiple people in the VA Tech shooting...along with a 9mm handgun. And that was the deadliest school shooting in American history.

Can I respectfully ask that you stop excusing the weapons role in mass shootings. Firearms in general make people superhuman. Semi-auto weapons create a whole new dimension to that dementia.

Yes, all firearms are deadly. But when whackadoodles go wahckadoodle they go for the deadliest weapon they can easily acquire.

"Puka-head wrote:

Can I respectfully ask that you stop excusing the weapons role in mass shootings. Firearms in general make people superhuman. Semi-auto weapons create a whole new dimension to that dementia.

Yes, all firearms are deadly. But when whackadoodles go wahckadoodle they go for the deadliest weapon they can easily acquire.

I've clearly stated that the firearm plays a role. It's just not a very big role. The person plays the biggest part in these massacres.

For example, and I've stated this a few times now with nary a response, the deadliest school shooting in American history happened with a .22 cal handgun and a 9mm handgun. Ask Robert Kennedy how a .22cal pistol feels. Oh, you can't because he was killed by one. lol An AR is really no more deadly than those weapons at close range. It will, however, travel further and more rapidly through the body in most instances. Although, I've shot through a frozen turkey at 200 yards with a 40gr .22 round. The problem is that people are being led to believe, falsely, that the AR is the "deadliest weapon" and so they tend to choose that one. A shotgun would have killed and injured more people in this latest shooting.

"danmarino wrote:

Lots of great points here Raf.

There is certainly not a one solution fix for this problem.

I think the point of making the sentences longer is you don't have these criminals using jail as a revolving door. You shoot someone or commit armed robbery you should be doing more than the 3-8 years average. Put someone like that away for 15-20 and see if that's enough time to change them. It will also keep them off of the streets for 15-20 years which will in turn lower the number of people like that on the streets.

I have no problem with making people jump through hoops in order to purchase ANY type of firearm. I'd gladly give my guns to the state and go through a mandatory 1 year training and mental eval to get them back if it meant no schools would be shot up.

I think the point of arming teachers is just a catch all phrase. Basically, making schools gun free zones makes the students and teachers sitting ducks. I think the point is, make everyone know that there may be one or more people on campus armed. I do think this would be a deterrent. Another fact is, as a lone shooter is approaching his victims cowering in the corner, if even one of them had a gun they could at least TRY to defend themselves. Better than nothing, IMO.

One thing I disagree with you on is that guns don't make people safer. That is just flat out wrong. If they didn't cops wouldn't carry, air marshals wouldn't carry, military members wouldn't carry, and I wouldn't carry. Cops, for the most part, suck at shooting when in high pressure situations. I've touched on this in this thread. The problem isn't the stress, however, the problem is lack of training. 90% of all departments need more training. I shot just as well in real life as I did at the range. Why? Because Marines train and train and train and train some more.

I also touched on the AR empowering people. The media and movies have hyped this rifle like nothing else. I equate it to the pit bull situation. A lot of people think pit bulls are somehow stronger or ferocious than other dog breeds their size. Some think they have a "locking" jaw. None of this is true. However, what's happened is morons, due to the hype, get pit bulls and treat them badly and then the dogs bite people. Same thing with the AR. An AR is no more dangerous than any other type of firearm. In fact, a .22 handgun was used to kill multiple people in the VA Tech shooting...along with a 9mm handgun. And that was the deadliest school shooting in American history.

Statistically, guns not making people safer is a fact. Accidental shootings, suicides, etc., are far more common than situations where people have to use a gun to defend themselves. The military is obviously a different situation b/c you're training for situations where you will be defending/attacking people in a gun v. gun situations. Outside of those involved in the drug trade most people don't face gun v. gun situations very often. And in fact there are many countries whose police don't carry guns.

As for stress not being a factor, I disagree. It is a fact that increased heart rate is correlated to decreased shooting accuracy. There are some people who don't experience increased heart rates during combat or fight situations but they are certainly not the majority. I doubt it would be possible to field a police force made up of just such people. And while increased training can provide some small improvements in a police forces overall accuracy in combat situations, the margins are small. Several departments have attempted improve their in field accuracy through increased training from military models and it has not worked. Policing involves many other tasks. It's simply not economically viable to have police training all the time for combat situations. That's also why I doubt having teachers carry guns will change anything. They'll never be able to train enough to be even as accurate as police (which is poor) are in real-life situations. That will make them pretty ineffective in actually stopping the shooter. I also don't believe that a person who is planning to shoot up a school b/c they were bullied or some other reason will decide not to b/c the law allows teachers to carry guns.

And economic viability is also an issue with just putting everybody in prison. We already incarcerate a huge percentage of the population. Despite having a huge number of prisons, we have to release people early all the time. That is something that is already not working.

Issue with automatic weapons is it allows the idiots to do much more damage and gives them the ability to carryout this media driven fkd in the head fantasy.

Make no mistake, it is the little troubled bastards fault these things happen (along with the media where they get the idea in the first place). However, I can't think of one good reason a civilian needs to own an automatic weapon. I mean.....why?

AS someone who would never claim to commit to a political party, I find it amusing that both of those sides are angry with the Donald, when he NAILED it.

Somehow someway, saying "we have to have much stricter background checks" somehow pissed off talking heads and headline readers the same. Want some irony for the idiots on both sides??? HE IS RIGHT.

In short.

- The person is the number one reason dumb things happen.
- The media attention is the reason these things are now happening in bulk. How many schools have closed to "threats"? Must be a coincidence.
- There is no justifiable reason a civilian needs to have an assault rifle, its not cool it doesn't add hair on your ass and it is an unnecessary risk to make and sell these things.

You're all right yet all wrong.

"rafael wrote:

Statistically, guns not making people safer is a fact. Accidental shootings, suicides, etc., are far more common than situations where people have to use a gun to defend themselves. The military is obviously a different situation b/c you're training for situations where you will be defending/attacking people in a gun v. gun situations. Outside of those involved in the drug trade most people don't face gun v. gun situations very often. And in fact there are many countries whose police don't carry guns.

As for stress not being a factor, I disagree. It is a fact that increased heart rate is correlated to decreased shooting accuracy. There are some people who don't experience increased heart rates during combat or fight situations but they are certainly not the majority. I doubt it would be possible to field a police force made up of just such people. And while increased training can provide some small improvements in a police forces overall accuracy in combat situations, the margins are small. Several departments have attempted improve their in field accuracy through increased training from military models and it has not worked. Policing involves many other tasks. It's simply not economically viable to have police training all the time for combat situations. That's also why I doubt having teachers carry guns will change anything. They'll never be able to train enough to be even as accurate as police (which is poor) are in real-life situations. That will make them pretty ineffective in actually stopping the shooter. I also don't believe that a person who is planning to shoot up a school b/c they were bullied or some other reason will decide not to b/c the law allows teachers to carry guns.

And economic viability is also an issue with just putting everybody in prison. We already incarcerate a huge percentage of the population. Despite having a huge number of prisons, we have to release people early all the time. That is something that is already not working.

Not true at all.

The real facts show that nearly 1.5 million people in the US defend themselves every year using a firearm (Not including police). Compared to the 30,000 TOTAL firearm related deaths in a year and you see why it's not true.

Stress is not the factor. In fact, stress, if trained properly (training is the real factor in regards to police accuracy) actually helps a person shoot more accurately. Not once did I ever fire a weapon in Afghanistan and NOT feel my heart beating out of my chest. Every single Marine I served beside would tell you the same thing. And yet I can shoot a man at 500 yards with iron sites. Again, if trained properly stress is helpful.

Police don't need to train for combat situations. They need to train how to use their stress effectively.

I have a teacher friend who never served in the military, was never a cop, and could out shoot me any day of the week. Why? He's been through proper training and he practices.

I think that schools who allow teachers to carry will not be the first target for a shooter. They'd go down the street to the school that doesn't allow teachers to carry. Of course this won't prevent all shootings. Cops and laws don't prevent all shootings. Should we get rid of both?

Again, should we just let everyone out of prison because it's a cost burden? People who commit crimes with guns need longer jail sentences. Period. If that means letting people who are in for weed related offenses or other victimless crimes so be it. But that's another discussion.

"Fin-O wrote:

Issue with automatic weapons is it allows the idiots to do much more damage and gives them the ability to carryout this media driven fkd in the head fantasy.

Make no mistake, it is the little troubled bastards fault these things happen (along with the media where they get the idea in the first place). However, I can't think of one good reason a civilian needs to own an automatic weapon. I mean.....why?

AS someone who would never claim to commit to a political party, I find it amusing that both of those sides are angry with the Donald, when he NAILED it.

Somehow someway, saying "we have to have much stricter background checks" somehow pissed off talking heads and headline readers the same. Want some irony for the idiots on both sides??? HE IS RIGHT.

In short.

- The person is the number one reason dumb things happen.
- The media attention is the reason these things are now happening in bulk. How many schools have closed to "threats"? Must be a coincidence.
- There is no justifiable reason a civilian needs to have an assault rifle, its not cool it doesn't add hair on your *** and it is an unnecessary risk to make and sell these things.

You're all right yet all wrong.

There is no issue with automatic weapons. Was that a typo? If not, you've fallen victim to the media's diatribe. No one is using automatic weapons to shoot up schools.

Very few civilians have assault rifles. In order to get an assault rifle you need to:

1. You need to be eligible to possess firearms in general.

2. You must live in a state where NFA items are permitted and automatic weapons, specifically, are legal to possess.

3. The automatic weapon you wish to acquire must have been manufactured on or before May 19, 1986. That is the cutoff date for entries to be made in the NFRTR (National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record), the registry of all NFA items in the United States including machine guns.

4. You must locate a Class III dealer (FFL01+SOT) that sells or can transfer in theautomatic weapon you wish to acquire in your state of residence.

5. You must purchase the automatic weapon upfront prior to transfer and have it shipped to your Class III dealer. For a full-auto M16, this will be anywhere from $12,000 and up. Typical prices for an M16 hover around $14,000 to $16,000. Some automatic weapons go for $30k and up.

6. Once purchased and with your dealer, the dealer will fill out the Form 4 application on your behalf to submission to the BATFE and collect your $200 NFA transfer stamp tax.

7. The application will be submitted. Now you wait 8+ months for the full FBI background check and BATFE processing to complete.

8. Once the Form 4 is processed, it will be returned to the dealer along with the tax stamp which is part of your paperwork. You can then take possession of your automatic firearm and take it home.

9. The tax stamp must be kept with the firearm it belongs to at all times! The tax stamp is your only affirmative defense to prove you are not in possession of an illegal automatic weapon. The tax stamp is proof you paid the transfer tax and legally transferred the automatic weapon. Ranges that allow Class III will want to see the stamp. If you get pulled over and the gun is discovered/inspected, law enforcement will definitely want to see it too. You may be required to present the firearm for inspection on demand by the BATFE.

10. You may not transport the fully automatic firearm across state lines for any purpose without prior consent of the Federal government. You must request this in advance and provide details on where the firearm is going, when you are leaving and when it will return to its registered location of residence.

11. You cannot leave the presence of your fully automatic firearm. If someone else is shooting it, you must be with it, legally speaking. The one exception to this is if you have formed a legal trust for the purpose of possessing the firearm, in which case all beneficiaries of the trust (usually family or employees) may have access to the firearm.

"danmarino wrote:

There is no issue with automatic weapons. Was that a typo? If not, you've fallen victim to the media's diatribe. No one is using automatic weapons to shoot up schools.

Very few civilians have assault rifles. In order to get an assault rifle you need to:

1. You need to be eligible to possess firearms in general.

2. You must live in a state where NFA items are permitted and automatic weapons, specifically, are legal to possess.

3. The automatic weapon you wish to acquire must have been manufactured on or before May 19, 1986. That is the cutoff date for entries to be made in the NFRTR (National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record), the registry of all NFA items in the United States including machine guns.

4. You must locate a Class III dealer (FFL01+SOT) that sells or can transfer in theautomatic weapon you wish to acquire in your state of residence.

5. You must purchase the automatic weapon upfront prior to transfer and have it shipped to your Class III dealer. For a full-auto M16, this will be anywhere from $12,000 and up. Typical prices for an M16 hover around $14,000 to $16,000. Some automatic weapons go for $30k and up.

6. Once purchased and with your dealer, the dealer will fill out the Form 4 application on your behalf to submission to the BATFE and collect your $200 NFA transfer stamp tax.

7. The application will be submitted. Now you wait 8+ months for the full FBI background check and BATFE processing to complete.

8. Once the Form 4 is processed, it will be returned to the dealer along with the tax stamp which is part of your paperwork. You can then take possession of your automatic firearm and take it home.

9. The tax stamp must be kept with the firearm it belongs to at all times! The tax stamp is your only affirmative defense to prove you are not in possession of an illegal automatic weapon. The tax stamp is proof you paid the transfer tax and legally transferred the automatic weapon. Ranges that allow Class III will want to see the stamp. If you get pulled over and the gun is discovered/inspected, law enforcement will definitely want to see it too. You may be required to present the firearm for inspection on demand by the BATFE.

10. You may not transport the fully automatic firearm across state lines for any purpose without prior consent of the Federal government. You must request this in advance and provide details on where the firearm is going, when you are leaving and when it will return to its registered location of residence.

11. You cannot leave the presence of your fully automatic firearm. If someone else is shooting it, you must be with it, legally speaking. The one exception to this is if you have formed a legal trust for the purpose of possessing the firearm, in which case all beneficiaries of the trust (usually family or employees) may have access to the firearm.

I don't know the lingo, I do know that the type of gun used in the shooting has absolutely ZERO justification in being purchased by a high school kid.....even a sane one.

"Fin-O wrote:

I don't know the lingo, I do know that the type of gun used in the shooting has absolutely ZERO justification in being purchased by a high school kid.....even a sane one.

Wasn't this guy 19? Just because he either started school late or failed a grade shouldn't infringe upon his rights.

And you wrote "this type of gun"...

Would you let an 18 year old purchase this:

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