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Gun Advice

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by KeyFin, Feb 15, 2018.

  1. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Couldn’t agree more.

    The media has been a huge part of making this country decline, both intellectually and safely.
     
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  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    The media isn't the problem.

    It's advertising.

    Advertising is fed by ratings. Ratings are fed by sensationalist coverage.

    We need a citizen run news source, paid for by every American citizen. It will be bipartisan and facts based. It will have actual journalists. It will have a newspaper, web site and cable station. No editorials. No endorsing candidates. No advertising.
     
  3. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    Well said, Tony.
     
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  4. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    Chris Rock was on the right track.

     
  5. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets

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    So I guess my numbers got added up in my brain due to the fact my families workplace is in education for the most part. Workplace and education together add up to 70% ish of location for active shooter incidents according to the FBI. Education is a mere 25%. But that 25% doesn't have the ability to defend themselves.
    upload_2018-2-19_22-11-10.png
     

    Attached Files:

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  6. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets

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    And sorry if I'm Hijacking your thread Key.
     
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  7. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    There was a time when the news was better and employed greater integrity though. Now it doesn't. They're not fully void of culpability. I agree fully with your solution though.
     
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  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    It is because of the advertising money. TV and the internet created more competition. To attract viewers, outlets would start to add pizzaz. Some of these news outlets, had to be 24/7 so they also needed to fill time.

    The problem is, they are for profit businesses, which means their decisions are ultimately decided by dollars. OTOH, we cannot have a government run news entity either and the business run is better than that. But that's why I'm advocating for a 3rd option.
     
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  9. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And the same could be said about politics. Not to make this political, but without lobbyists the system would be way less corrupt. Politicians are in it for the money. And the ones who aren't soon tire of the corruptness of it all and move on to something else.
     
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  10. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms.

    However, here is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths:

    (These are numbers from 2016)

    • 65% of those deaths are by suicide which would never be prevented by gun laws
    • 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty
    • 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – gun violence
    • 3% are accidental discharge deaths

    So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but 5,100 (17% of 30,000). Still too many, of course. But look where those deaths are happening?
    • 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago
    • 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore
    • 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit
    • 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)

    So basically, 25% of all gun crime death happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of laws that are the root cause. It is a cultural problem, a mental problem, and an access problem.

    This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation. Although, California alone had 1,169. Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California.

    Now, if you have read any of my other posts you'd see that I am for stricter gun laws. Laws requiring people to go through more thorough background checks, and mandatory training. However, that won't really affect the everyday shootings we see in the 4 cities I mentioned or across the nation for that matter. It may prevent a few, which is worth it in my opinion, but the overwhelming number of gun crime related deaths are done with people who illegally posses a gun. IOW, there are already laws that address those deaths. I think, however, stricter penalties need to be enacted for gun crimes. As it stands, you can rob someone or a business at gun point and serve only 5 years in most states. That's too low. The laws I'm suggesting would HOPEFULLY drastically lower people shooting up schools. Why? Because it seems the types who do this are typically getting their weapons legally or from someone who obtained it legally.
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Yup.

    Our founding fathers built a government system that can't be corrupted by power. They did, however, not foresee it being corrupted by money.
     
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  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I don't think most people are really talking about gun laws to solve inner city gun violence. I think it is about stopping mass shootings.

    Inner city violence is a different problem requiring different solutions. I think the two different problems get muddled by both sides though.

    Mass shootings have an easier fix than inner city gun violence.
     
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  13. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    No worries, we already decided I'll grab a Ruger .22. Hijack away! =)
     
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  14. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    You're starting to a sound a little libertarian.
     
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  15. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    So to break the numbers down even further by using the initial statistics, 2656 criminal shootings happen nationwide outside of the four major cities and the state of California. St. Louis accounts for another 10% of that figure with 204 victim shootings...it's not a coincidence that the poorest communities also have the highest violence rates. And I have a feeling if we dug deeper, the same would be true for California....those shootings aren't in Napa Valley, Menlo Park or San Francisco. They're in poorer communities like Oakland and LA.

    What I'm getting at here is that if you eliminate the deadliest areas, the numbers start to look differently than the media portrays. Over 90% of the nation's shootings occur in one of ten cities and another 8% in the 11th through 20th deadliest cities (BTW, my stats are almost all from 2016 and I'm grabbing them from a dozen different sites, so I'm not quoting my work here)-

    1) New Orleans
    2) Detroit
    3) St. Louis
    4) Baltimore
    5) Oakland
    6) Kansas City
    7) Cincinnati
    8) Cleveland
    9) Atlanta
    10) Philly

    (next 10- Memphis, Buffalo, DC, Stockton, Miami, Milwaukee, Pitt, Chicago, Indy, Tulsa)

    Yet when we look at the deadliest mass shooters of the past decade, they're in Vegas (58 killed), Orlando (49 killed), Blacksburg, VA (32 killed), Newtown (27 killed), Sutherland Springs, TX (26 killed), Kileen TX (23 killed), San Ysidro, CA (21 killed), Austin (18 killed), Parkland, FL (17 killed), San Bernardino (14 killed), Edmond, CA (14 killed), Fort Hood, TX (14 killed).

    I can keep going and we don't hit one of the top 20 deadliest cities until we get to an Atlanta shooting in 1999- that's almost 20 years ago folks! That was a guy assaulting brokerage houses that poorly invested his money and took almost $100k in fees while leaving him penniless....he had clear motive and doesn't fit the "school shooter" profile that we're looking for here.

    So while the mass violence is contained to a few select areas, these binge types of shootings are happening everywhere (with more instances in CA and TX than anywhere else). Only North and South Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming haven't had any mass shooters over the past 20 years. This is a really cool tool to see the locations- Washington Post Interactive Map

    My early conclusion- these shootings can happen anywhere and they're not tied to national gun violence statistics. What we'd really need to do is tie in locations for suicides by firearms to get a clearer picture- that's something we largely ignore but those are people with nothing to lose that are clearly in pain over something. But as I've said before, these are 100% preventable situations with better mental health...give these folks help well before they're at their breaking point and all of this stops. The thing to remember is that each of these instances has a person spiraling downward over months and years time- it's not just a "wake up one day and kill everyone" scenario.

    For the heck of it though, let's say we ban AR-15's. The next shooter is only going to have the next best firearm- absolutely nothing changes. And if we ban all rifles and shotguns, then you're only going to start seeing handguns with large magazines being used. To me, the solution is not better gun control laws since the vast majority of these shooters were legal, registered gun owners in the first place- the system simply is not set up to judge long-term mental competence in a way that would truly matter. We can dance around the real issue all day long but better mental health is the only clear answer here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  16. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Great post!

    Let me add one thing. The worst school shooting in American history (32 deaths) was accomplished with a handgun. The AR looks scary so Hollywood and the media have touted them as being "evil". The truth is, they are no more dangerous than any other number of rifles or handguns. It seems those who wish to ban guns don't care that banning guns won't solve the problem. Our culture must change. And in doing that, (and I'll probably get lambasted over this) we have to start looking at how things were when school shootings were very rare. God, country, and family were a major part of people's lives back then. That's not true today.
     
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  17. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

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    I'd even argue a pistol is more scary to me than AR for its concealment.
     
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  18. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    Our political set up is a complete and utter joke. It is driven by money, and not the best interest of the people. They aren't the best choice to run this country, they are which idiotic party thinks can win. It's a huge scam and us Americans are puppets to them. And then we finally get a non politician in office and he just can't stop himself from being a PR nightmare by staying on social media like a high schooler.

    It is a corrupt system that needs to be abolished, but won't....why?? MONEY.
     
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  19. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

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    I didn't vote for Trump. I didn't vote for anyone.

    I believe that politicians should not be able to disclose what party they consider themselves to be affiliated with. That would take away ignorant, uninformed people to blindly vote on party lines. Furthermore, I think there should be a competency test for people that want to vote. If you want to vote for someone, complete a 10 question quiz that confirms your beliefs are the same as the guy you are voting for.
     
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  20. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    Why yes, yes I do.
     
  21. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Before this thread gets closed for becoming political...

    Tony, I don't think the mass shootings fix is that easy. Something has happened in this country. Something has happened that has made mass shootings become more prevalent and commonplace. I mean let's be honest, gun laws are much more stringent than when I was a kid. Guns were much more commonplace when I was a kid and yet, mass shootings didn't happen. People weren't as wacko as they apparently are today...so what in the hell has happened?

    I PERSONALLY feel that if a good hard look was taken at these incidents, it would be discovered these shooters were diagnosed ADD/HD and while they were still children, with an undeveloped mind, pumped with brain chemistry altering drugs such as Ritelan and Adderal (sp?) affecting their brain's full development...and somewhere along the way, some of these folks have just snapped.

    We've got to find the SOURCE of what's causing people to snap. THAT'S the problem that needs to be addressed!!
     
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  22. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Based on WHAT you said Key, believe it or not, a little 410 shotgun would suffice. Small and easy to handle yet, powerful enough to ward off the snakes and other wildlife and not the body destroying power that other shotguns would have.

    Unless you plan on becoming an avid shooter, a handgun, which is what I would TRULY recommend would require a LOT of practice to become safely accurate enough. Most folks don't realize how often someone MISSES with a handgun. It took a lot of years and a lot of dry firing and rounds downrange to become as proficient as I am and unless you plan on that much dedication, go with a 410
     
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  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I never said it was an easy fix, I said it was easier to fix than a different problem.

    A major part of the problem is the AR-15 itself. Colt's patent ran out in the 90's and every other gun manufacturer started making them. Sales increased dramatically. Then there was a 10 year ban on assault weapons in 1994. You didn't see this when you were a kid, because the tools to commit these kinds of atrocities simply weren't as easily available. Ok that isn't the only reason. The other reason is the role media/social media play in all this nowadays. It is basically an adrenaline shot, that expedites the travel distance between being unhappy to shooting people.

    The other thing...is it is fast out disgusting the CDC is legally not allowed to research and investigate the gun problem.
     
  24. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is an excellent point. I think the majority of these shooters were on or once were on, psych drugs.

    I touched on this in the other thread, but fatherless households, IMO, are also a big cause of these boys losing it.
     
  25. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    All one has to do is read an article about a police "shootout". It will typically read something like, "150 rounds were fired by the officers and the suspect was struck 3 times".
     
  26. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is a mini-14.
    It is a .223/5.56 caliber, magazine fed, semi-auto rifle:

    upload_2018-2-21_8-25-48.png


    This is an AR-15.
    A .223/5.56 caliber, magazine fed, semi-auto rifle:

    upload_2018-2-21_8-28-25.png

    This is a Remington 7400.

    A 7.62/.308 caliber, magazine fed, semi-auto rifle:

    upload_2018-2-21_8-32-17.png




    The 3rd one is far more powerful. The 1st one is exactly the same thing as the 2nd one. No one is afraid of the 1st or 3rd one.

    (Also, all three have 20-30 round magazines available.)
     
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  27. aesop

    aesop Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  28. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The weapons used in the worst school shooting in American History.


    Glock 19...9mm
    upload_2018-2-21_9-37-32.png


    Walther22... .22 cal

    upload_2018-2-21_9-38-10.png
     
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  29. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I guess I’m just one of those who believe a gun has never killed anyone. I’ve looked right down the barrel of a lock and loaded M4 before, screamed at it to shoot me and it never did...but then again it was lying on a table at the range and it wasn’t in anyone’s hands.

    People kill people and do so with tools, be it a knife, a club, a truck or a firearm. No tool has ever killed anyone. It can’t. It’s an inanimate object. It only becomes potentially lethal once a person places his hands on that tool.

    Like vaccinations, I want to cure the root cause of a disease and not forever keep putting feel good bandaids on the same sickness year after year.

    Banning “tools” doesn’t curb a persons desire to kill. If he/she wants to kill and is dead set on doing so, they’re going to find a way. I want to find what has caused this person to suddenly feel it’s perfectly acceptable to commit a mass murder and fix that so this disease of violence is vaccinated and eradicated from mankind
     
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  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I get it.

    But most people can't kill the amount of people in Vegas or Orlando or Parkland, without a weapon capable of doing it. They just can't.

    Following the logic you're positing, NOTHING should be illegal, because people will just do it anyway.

    Look, no one is saying banning tools will curb a person's desire to kill. We are saying that if they have less tools it will be harder for them to kill and kill as many. That kid could not have killed 17 people with a handgun. You, as a trained professional, probably could. Most of these people aren't trained pros though.

    I can look up how to make a makeshift land mine, gather the ingredients build one and place it somewhere, does that mean land mines shouldn't illegal? Of course not.

    It should be harder for people to get the tools or at least as hard as it is to get a driver's license.
     
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  31. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This 23 year old kid killed 32 and injured 25 at VA Tech with a handgun.

    upload_2018-2-21_11-41-51.png
     
  32. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Between 1982 and 2017 85 mass shootings have been done using handguns. 58 have been done with rifles. All rifles and not just AR's.
     
  33. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The AR has become the pit bull of firearms. A pit bull is no more dangerous than any other dog of their size, but a lot of idiots own one because they think it makes them look cool. These same idiots use these dogs for illegal activities. Same goes for the AR.
     
  34. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Dahmer ate people without being on bath salts, should we not ban bath salts?
     
  35. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    lol...I'm all for making ALL guns hard to get. Relatively speaking. But banning ONE certain gun won't change anything. You said that this 19 yr old couldn't have killed 17 with a handgun. That's just false.

    You claimed that Dark Knight could have because he's trained. Well, I present he could have killed 100+ with a handgun because he's trained. There are 3100 kids in that school and it would be like shooting fish in a barrel to someone trained.
     
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  36. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    That component you're missing from the equation is social media. When you were in school, you saw people 6-8 hours a day and then went home to a completely different life. The jerks in school were forgotten and you were playing with neighborhood kids, riding bikes, etc. But now, those moments are Tweeted and commented and a stupid little incident becomes a week-long bullying session that only keeps increasing over time. Kids have no idea how to deal with that and it's why we have more depressed kids than ever before.

    On a NATIONAL level, I think I saw a stat the other week that around 1 in 3 kids suffer from depression- one third of the teenage nation is your potential shooter pool. Over 90% of those kids are never diagnosed or treated...which means they deal with it however they can. It DOES NOT take a truly crazy kid like mine to make that list.

    If you want the plain answer, it's society causing this by (1) giving kids smartphones at 12 years old (2) having parents/teachers that have no idea how much kids are being effected and (3) having a broken mental health system in the USA. Simply put, kids are being slaughtered because they're bullying the heck out of peers without ever even realizing that they are devastating their lives.

    I can call you a "stupid jerk" in this thread and you might think, "No I'm not, Key is a stupid jerk for saying that." Then you log off and everything is forgotten. But on Facebook or Snapchat with kids that have 2,000+ friends, they all chime in and keep that moment alive...adding insult to injury that carries on for weeks. Next thing you know, kids are sneering in the hallways, making little comments when you're not looking, etc....and this kid is suddenly in social hell feeling like the walls are closing in and their life is over. All from one meaningless initial comment that the person saying it didn't think twice about. But that's our society today for teens- those nothing moments can feel like life-changing obstacles.

    Is it a shock that less than 1/10th of 1 percent turn to violence? I would expect that number to actually be higher.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
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  37. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Great post Key...
     
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  38. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I'll give a quick example- my 16 year old Victoria (she's the normal, completely balanced, very mature kid) was at the University of South Carolina last week on an invite for a music clinic- she's one of the best teen sax players in the state and it was a very big honor. And on that Friday, she get this text reading, "Why'd you tell on Brian and get him suspended?"

    Well, she has no idea what this text is about and figures the message was meant for someone else. So she ignores it. But then she gets four more messages from other people calling her a dumb b-word, a sellout, a snitch, etc. Then one of her close friends calls her and explain that a kid did a crazy school prank, one of the students showed a picture of it to a teacher and that person had to bring her phone to the principal for evidence. When people started questioning this girl about why she turned the boy in, she panicked and said, "I didn't do it- Victoria did!" It just so happened that Victoria was the only one not there to contradict this girl, which is why she pointed the finger at my kid.

    Suddenly the whole school is trashing her on social media for getting this kid in trouble. Her friends don't even want to talk to her anymore, people are being total jerks to her...and this has ZERO to do with Victoria. She ended up getting into arguments with several of her best friends over it and before long, she's crying her eyes out saying that everyone hates her and she didn't do anything.

    The following Monday, she went to school and was confronted by around a dozen students total in her first class, and she had zero idea how to handle it. After all, she couldn't go to the teachers because that's why people are giving her so much crap to begin with...even though she didn't do it. She ended up having a panic attack and the school sent her to the office, and Victoria refused to go to school Tuesday and Wednesday....she had a migraine both days. By Thursday she was asking if she could quit band and be home-schooled...that's how much it affected her in such a short period of time.

    By this week it's all blown over; I had a conversation with the principal and he in-turn had the band director absolutely go off on all the students. Nobody will say anything else to Victoria about this but at the same time, I knew from dealing with my other kid that you have to attack these kinds of things head-on. I didn't wait for my kid to figure it out because she's not supposed to at 16.

    That's what our kids deal with every single day though- little, stupid stuff that snowballs on them in a matter of hours. And when kids get stuck without answers, they just retract from everything around them and become depressed loners with zero social skills. But they're just regular kids that have their optimism stolen and that's what leads to all this other stuff- the suicides, the shootings, etc. Think about this- your teen knows someone who's killed themselves at their school...it's that common these days.

    And it all starts with something as dumb as the story I just told- that's step one in the path that can potentially lead to death.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
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  39. Fin-O

    Fin-O Initiated Club Member

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    That's terrible.

    And the fact that those little dumb ****'s are regurgitating street comments about "snitching" is half the problem.

    These young kids today are generally dumber than ****. It is a monkey see monkey do age, and with social media?? That is a BAD thing.

    Like 3 high schools in my area are staging a "walk out" to protest gun control. Hey..I get the point....a teenager who can legally buy an automatic weapon is flat out STUPID.

    But fact is, they will get what they want...ATTENTION....then the following week will forget it ever happened when they find out Brad was cheating on Brianna with Tucker.
     
  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Oh, don't even get my started on snitching, LOL. The opposite of snitching is accepting crime/violence in your area...it boggles my mind why people protect bad people doing bad things. To me, snitching is being an honest, responsible citizen.

    The part that bothers me about what you said is that some of those people protesting could be the ones that drove the shooter to doing something so stupid in the first place. Nobody takes personal responsibility anymore though and it's always someone else's fault, someone else's problem.

    Our teens and technology are creating this environment though where it's so easy to bully others and just forget about it ten seconds later- that's a big part of what has to change and it's why Facebook is nose-diving in popularity (millions of users per month are leaving- almost 10% of the total user base is gone since December). The mental health side has to improve drastically as well though- it's BS my kid had no safe option to turn to at school.

    By the way, she's mad at me for contacting the principal since her whole class got screamed at and lectured- now the students hate me for it as well. Not that I care, mind you....but that's today's mentality of the youth.
     
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