Are you serious ? People were runnning right by Carey last year. Watch especially the play where Pennington go hurt. Careys guy made him look like a statue on that play and belted Pennington in the back as he was throwing the ball. He went right past Carey and chased Pennington right across the backfield with Carey two steps behind him. Hey, I love the kid too and pray he fully recovers but he was not as some think he was last season, not even close. Between him and Jerry on the right side it was completely awful. When they had to replace Jerry, it was more of the same, awful. The Right side of this offensive line last year was plain offensive. I will give Carey the benefit because it was his knees bothering him. Jerry ? Ok, the kid was sick but came back and still could not be effective the rest of the season and whoever we put in for him was even worse. When we had to replace Carey with Murtha, it was the real deathblow for this offense.
You read Bleacher report too much. No one figures per centage points in sacks vs number of plays. Average NFL game is between 60 and 70 plays offense a game, Even go on the low side 60 plays, Carey played in 12 games time 60 equals 720. In your way of thinkin ghe could give up 7 sacks and still be less then one percent of his amount of plays. 7 sacks is not good regardless if its only 12 games and Carey gave up 6 sacks in 12 games which is embarrassing. Under your assumption if a player plays the entire 16 game season and as I said, even on the low side of 60 plays a game , would come out to 960 plays and if a player gives up 9.6 sacks its a great season for the player and puts him in the upper echelon of players ?? Really, dude, by yiour reason then Incognito is a super star because he played every snap the entire season minus 1 and gave up 5 sacks, which again, on the low end being 960 offensive plays and one percent being 9.6 sacks. gave up less then one half of one percent and he was only ranked as the 15th best guard in the NFL, Guess they were wrong eh. Carey was nowhere near ranked in the top Tackles in the NFL last year, right or left. As I said, stop reading bleacher report, its bad for your vision and you crunch your per centage figures yourself for every Olineman in the NFL, they all give up less then sacks on 1 % of the time they played the season. Carey is nothing special anymore.
Sorry to be so abrasive, its been a tough Friday. But in all honestly, that one per cent thing is meaningless. Do the math, even on the low side, for any lineman in the NFL, they all give up sacks that amount to 1% of the total plays they played. In regards to sacks even. These days with the faster , stronger, more athletic DEs and DTs sacks are a reality, I do not hold them against offensive lineman as its going to happen period. For the most part anyway, the people keeping track of them have no idea of who was really supposed to block who on some plays. Take Jake, he played with on shoulder the later part of the season and a bad knee all season. He ended up being credited for 8 or 9 sacks and thats not him. His play affected the LG play, Careys knees affected the RG play who was affected by an illness that was beyond his control. In reality, we do not have a bad offensive line at all. We had one player that played every game offensive line wise. We had a backup center as our starting center last year and anyone can pick any reason they choose for that. Fact is, injuries hit us in camp and continued into the pre season and even further into the regular season. By seasons end we had players of practice squad ability, Murtha, starting. What happened was beyond anyones control. You look at any NFL team that had to move players around and bring in sub par subs like we had to do and regardless of who the QB, coach or Offensive Co ordinator is, its not going to be a pretty season, not at all.
6 sacks in 12 games. 12 sacks in an entire season is bad enough, 12 in 12 games is reason for beheading
trying to keep this thread on Gs .... but Carey is and has always been susceptable to speed rushers, gives up on blocks, and i wouldn't call his short tenure at RG a success either ... Carey is and always has been slightly above average @ RT - and we continue to find ways to show he is more than that. We are paying him elite $$$$. The problem is that we don't have anyone - at least readily viewed as ready to step in .... which means that we'd actually need to have 2 X Ts (1 to start and 1 for depth) in order to consider replacing him.
First, I think it would be prudent to point out I've never read Bleacher Report in my life. Second, I made no assumptions. The numbers I used were from Pro Football Focus. I used their numbers for total snaps, QB sacks allowed, QB hits allowed, and QB pressures allowed. Third, I think you missed the part where I said it was less than 1% for QB sacks and QB hits combined. Fourth, Carey gave up 4 sacks last season, not 6. Vernon Carey played 781 snaps last season. He allowed 4 sacks, and 3 QB hits. (4+3)/781 = 0.90%. That number ranks 15th in the NFL among all tackles. For comparison's sake, Jake Long was at 0.84%, Damien Woody was at 0.89%, D'Brickashaw Ferguson was at 0.96%, Matt Light was at 1.00%, Joe Thomas was at 1.23%, and Brian Bulaga was at 2.00%. You say allowing 6 sacks is not good. Here is a list of NFL tackles that gave up 6 sacks or more: Jake Long Ryan Clady Bryant McKinnie Donald Penn Matt Light Chad Clifton Winston Justice Eric Winston Michael Roos There are many others as well. I would suppose those tackles aren't any good? Now certainly, the numbers I presented are by no means meant to be an absolute declaration of performance by NFL tackles. Of course you are comparing left and right tackles, which isn't ideal. Its also not taking into consideration how many of those snaps were actually passing plays, although I think the Dolphins were about middle of the pack in run-pass ratio (Carey pass blocked in 58% of his snaps, in comparison, Matt Light pass blocked in 55% of his snaps). Regardless, because of the factors mentioned above, this wasn't meant to prove that Vernon Carey is an elite NFL tackle. I posted the numbers merely to disprove the notion that "Carey no longer has the physical ability to successfully move well", or that his play was somehow "embarrassing" as you put it.
Jake played with one arm and a bad knee and he did it for 16 games. The others you mentioned did it for 16 games. Carey did it for 12 games and he had more then 4 sacks my friend. and you are insane if you think he only allowed 3 QB hits. The Jets game in Miami alone he allowed three hits my friend. And, no, Cary no longer has the physical ability to move well. Like I said, I love the kid but its time. Now, if both his knees come around after his treatment this off season, we will all have to see what we have. Going on what we saw last season though, there is not much to look at and his backup Murtha should be in the Arena football league. You chose to ignore the fact if you take the figures of almost any NFL lineman, guard, center or tackles, they all come in far less then 1 % allowing sacks and pressure wise as compared to their amount of plays during the course of a full season. Your figures are skewed on Carey anyway. You are deriving an answer on a 12 game schedule. I have no clue where you get the figure Vernon Carey only allowed 3 qb hits and 4 sacks. He had that in the game Penny went out in alone. He was horrible. You are also not counting the games where the defender literally just ran around him and hammered our Running backs into the ground. You are also not allowing anything for the right side of the Oline not even opening a hole big enough for the left guard to get thru when he was pulling. Time after time we pulled him and when he got there the hole he was to go thru, along with the RB, was non existent or Carey was being handed his shorts. Anyone can derive an equation to make anything look good. As I said, if you apply yours to any offensive lineman in the NFL, they will look good and most likely come in well under the 1% target you came up with. I am not saying Carey is washed up but I am saying he is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from being elite or one of the top RTs in the NFL anymore. He can be replaced fairly easily, I pray he comes around but if he doesn't, then what ? Have a team report after each game that at one time he was elite and give the per centage you brought up ? The kid cannot move anymore, watch some replays of games if you have them, people run by him like he was a cardboard figure on a lot of plays. Hey, I also admit, cement bucket feet Henne did not help his cause any at all. I hope Carey is a success in 2011 for us, the fans, the team and himself but, they need to start looking right now for better back ups and our future RT. Like I said, its just my opiion and we will have to see how the season plays out. I know if he is granted time off in OTAs and summer practice due to his knees, we are in big doo doo if they do not bring in more OTs
Too bad they don't have two firsts to take Carimi and Pouncey, moving Carey to RG. Now that would be a heck of an offensive line. As mentioned before though I don't think the idea of a combination of a big free agent signing+1st round pick is too bad either. You might ignore RB, but I'm not really scared of the thought of lining up maybe a Ronnie Brown+a 3rd round pick+FA signing. It's not ideal, but maybe with a little bit more balance you can get some good production. Even DeAngelo Williams is only really a three year investment as compared to the possibility of nabbing a good guard in FA and having a line that contributes every play in the passing game and running game.
Carey has been, and was a pretty good guard in College. The most latterally agile lineman usually play Tackle. He may never again but he could and could do it well. What Carey is, is a good lineman. That's the best argument anyone could have to keep him as a Tackle. I say so....
Top all that off with the fact that Carey is a pretty damned good run blocker, and there you have it. A solid lineman.
OK except the fact that Carey was a pretty damned good LT for a couple of years and as a Guard he was better than a success in College. He was needed at Tackle so that's where he played most.
If you repeat it in an increasingly arrogant tone, your point becomes more credible even if you don't post anything to support your opinion. Unfortunately you've got at least another dozen versions or so of this before you get there.
Do you know what a "Hit" actually constitutes? You've got no basis whatsoever to be making a medical diagnosis on Carey's knee, nor have you been given any information for people who are qualified to have done so. What is your point here? So does Vernon Carey. You can still compare these things even if the number is small. Both Stats Inc. and Pro Football Focus have that same sack #. So any actual measurable, empirical way to compare Carey to anyone else in the league is totally meaningless, and we're forced to go with "mommabilly" on "www.thephins.com" repeating "HE SUCKED" in increasingly more abrasive tones? Scientific.
Oz brother, Carey was never a good LT ... ever ... he was the best we had at the time - and also why we drafted him in RD1. I know we got off topic on this thread .... meant to really cover our G situation and current development projects ... and yes, Carey does fit into that discussion at G, but given his current condition - and the fact that he did not have a good year when we put him there (some liked to put it on the C and RT that surrounded him, but i don't); and the fact i am not paying him elite $$$ to fall in at G unless he'd be an All-Pro (which just isn't very likely). Carey is a 'good' lineman .... if he wasn't, we'd have been able to replace him by now (granted we haven't put much effort into it either) -- but, he is most definately not elite or special; regardless of what stats may help show.
I dunno where you're getting that from. He was one of the few bright spots that season. He had a bit of an issue with false starts, but gave up 3 sacks in a full 16 game season and he faced a who's who of high quality pass rushers that season. Demarcus Ware, Mario Williams, the Giants the season they won the Super Bowl with Strahan/Tuck/Umenyiora all playing at elite levels, Trent Cole, James Harrison(As he started coming on), and Terrell Suggs. I don't know that Vernon Carey had a better season in his career than he did at LT. First of all, "his current condition" isn't really an assessment you can make unless you've got inside medical information. Secondly, he didn't have a "year" at Guard. He had two games his rookie season.
for some crazy reason i thought we saw him play RG for a handful of games that season (06), maybe it was pre-season, maybe not ... i know he hasn't played significant time there. I could be confusing him with Hadnot ... and if so, i apologize to Vernon Carey. regarding LT, i stand firm ... he is a 'good' lineman; IF he were that good, he'd still be our starting LT now - and we'd never have drafted Long ... as for his current condition ... i use that term simply because we have no idea where he is health wise -- so, his current condition is an unkown
Center is the biggest problem to resolve, not offensive guard. we need a pro-bowl caliber starting center. we can mix & match & compete @ Guard if need be...
Sure he was! He is not as good as Long but in 07 he yielded 3 sacks and graded out damnt near excellent.
How do you it was at all? One question, how many waist benders have gone on to cure that ill - just asking? Waist benders tend to be out over their toes, lose their balance and end up reaching and on the ground. Bending at the waist isn't all about one's core alone. Its like changing a guys motion, its noce to say on TV and all, but it doesn't work. It just doesn't. Some of it has to do with lower half flexibility and athleticism. There are limits to how much you can change. If it was as simple as just strengthening one's core, there's be a bunch more mentions of that as being an option for the litany of guys who do that each year of the draft. Jerry may get better, but he will likely always bend at the waist more than he should. Its not that simple to change a guy like that, it just isn't.
If we took Mike Pouncey and had it next to Long you'd have one hell of a left side, but that's just me. Pouncey is quick, meets the tall and lean mantra we have and has good hands. Could do worse. The thing you really have to ask is what position available would really entice us? Wide receiver? We are trying to fill a role, more than find a number 1 or 2 - truly. Not for an immediate impact. Running back we can find later on, thats for sure and most of the guys we'd interviewed are in that lower round range. We looked at the top backs, but then we've looked a bunch of more specific archetypes; big, strong guys and quicker guys as well. Fixing the O-line, and running the ball go hand in hand. If you have a good O-line, you can succeed with average backs. We've heard that they will remain a power running team. Our ability to move people at the POA on the inside was not our strong suit IMO. We struggled to get to the second level consistently IMO.
Con, in your opinion, would there be an emphasis on making sure we had a premium #1 run blocking TE if we had a guy like Pouncey next to Long and the rest of the Oline is healthy? Could we get by with one who is serviceable so that we can have a better receiving threat on the field (at TE) more often?.... and would you recommend it? Honestly, with one of the best run blocking RLs in the game, an elite guard next to him who can pull, a mauling center, and a 350 lb RT who can run block, is there a dire need for a runblocking TE?..... or would we be better of with a great FB? Is it possible the Lions would have passed on Pettigrew if they had Long at LT?
depends how much you want it, how much you need it. it depends on what you're willing to give up in exchange for it. everything is negotiable. we desperately need a center to spearhead & organize the offensive line this is a no-brainer I would take a center with starting ability & pro-bowl potential over any other position @ 15
