Good news..''Put the toothpaste back in the tube''

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Mike Dee is describing the stadium upgrades the way he does because if he came out and said we want more lower bowl seats because we can charge more then nobody would support the concept.

Sure, it would be great if we had a stadium more conducive to noise. But it's not a necessity nor would it help us win more games than we would have otherwise. All this stuff about intimidating stadiums cones after the fact. The Canes played at the Orange Bowl for 42 years before Schnellenberger and nobody thought it was some great hobedient advantage.


After they started winning, instead of just saying that the Cabes were mire talented than most of their opponents, we instead invented some magic potion to explain the dominance

 

If what you're saying is true, then please explain:

1. 58-0 AT HOME....... 37-10 AWAY
2. Bowl Game Record: 3-0 Orange Bowl..... 2-4 AWAY


No one is saying they wouldn't have been great. In fact, I already stated they were still a great team at 37-10 and 2-4 bowl games..... but they were ELITE at 58-0 at home.

Please stop acting as if there's only 1 degree of success. You can't sit here and tell me that the 37-10 road Hurricanes were the same team as the 58-0 Orange Bowl ones. It's the home-at-the-Orange Bowl Hurricanes that made them unforgettable, not the 37-10 ones who would've been an afterthought in football history along with all the other 37-10 type teams who lost more bowl games than they won.

We're not talking about going undefeated at home for 1 or 2 consecutive seasons. We're talking 9 straight years of never losing at home. Talent & great coaching alone are not enough to make that happen. If it were, the Canes wouldn't have lost 10 road games, including 3 Bowls.

 

Being motivated by teammates != crowd noise. You can continue equating Brian Dawkins giving a speech to his teammates with complete strangers screaming during the actual game. But all the data suggests that the only affect is on the officials. Brian Dawkins has an affect because he actually has a personal relationship with his teammates. They are fighting together. Some random fan isn't going to have an affect.

And no, the sound of an automobile does not motivate me.

 

So then why do some teams associate their fan base as their 12th man or 6th man?
I'm guessing 12 is a reference to the number of guys on the field + one more, the fans, right?

If the fans mean enough to be considered the "12th" or "6th", is that not a powerful enough label to be considered "personal"?
Players don't look at a stadium of 70,000 fans as 70,000 individual people; they perceive a stadium of 70,000 fans as a stadium of 1.
Yes, you can't develop a personal relationship with 70,000 fans, but you can develop a personal one with 70,000 that you perceive as 1.

How many hours, weeks, months, years do we spend on this Dophins' forum? Do we have a personal relationship with the players to warrant such attention, concern, love, loyalty, etc? 99.9999 percent of us don't...... and long before NFL players were NFL players, they were fans just like us. They know what it's like. That by itself can be sufficient to create a bond between player & fans. It's human nature to want to feel acceptance. Are you telling me that feeling a bond with 70,000 fans acting as 1 isn't a massive feeling of acceptance? What normal player wouldn't want that? Ask Cam Newton how he feels about it.


I think it's somewhat hypocritical to believe that only fans can personalize an impersonal relationship.

 

So your primary communication modality is either "visual" or a "kinesthetic" then? I'm guessing "visual" b/c of your profession and duration of school.
I'll have to go with the same for Schmoli, too. Do you both often see eye to eye?
If that's the case, then you both would actually have a difficult time relating to and empathizing with what DJ and I are saying.


Athletes are frequently "kinesthetic"...... however, I believe black athletes are often a combination of kinesthetic & auditory b/c of their characteristics.

 

Who knows. I thought they were a playoff caliber team.

 

I wonder what Ray Lewis says about the energy he draws from the Raven fans?
Offensively, Ray Rice strikes me as the type to feed off it as well.....as does Boldin.

 

There is an easy answer for this. Marketing. Making money. If you are able to convince fans they are part of the team, the fans will be more likely to spend money on tickets. Hopefully for the team, they are lower level tickets.

I spend time on the forum because I am a fan of the sport and the Miami Dolphins. I don't do it for emotional support or attention. I certainly don't consider myself concerned, or loyal, or "love" the players. I don't have any bond with anyone on the football team.

I sure would hope that players are self-assured and don't need any further acceptance outside of themselves, their family, friends, and their teammates/coaches. IMO seeking any type of acceptance from strangers is rooted in low self-esteem.

 

Thanks for paying my salary?

 

You mean like surprisingly beating the heavily favored Saints in the playoffs?

 

That would be if he played in Green Bay. lol.

 

Actually we disagree quite often.

Also curious how you know my profession and academic history????

 

on the surface that seems like it's possible, but that doesn't explain collegiate players.

I see you chose your wording carefully in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sentence. That's very lawyerly of you.

You're talking about the players, a 53 man roster with guys who come and go...... but how do you feel about the Miami Dolphins the "team"?

A person can never have enough feeling of acceptance b/c feeling accepted feels good, and it's human nature to seek out what feels good. Acceptance isn't exclusive to low self-esteem'ers. It can be like "the more the merrier. Come on in and join the party".

Plus, the need of feeling acceptance is constant. Feeling accepted 1 time doesn't quench that innate desire for life, and some of these players probably spend as much time around the fans as they do their own family and friends during the season, especially considering half of them couldn't choose what team they play for and their family & friends might live on the other side of the country. If that's the case, a fan base could potentially help fill that acceptance void. Plus, not everyone has hunky dory pasts with supportive family relationships. When you couple how rigorously demanding the NFL is with being away from home and family, I can imagine that to be somewhat mentally taxing. In that case, the more the acceptance the better, no?

The other thing to consider is, we're also talking about a lot of young guys shortly removed from college whom I'm guessing could:
A. use this fan support during their developing years for extra motivation and energy.
B. relish in their "elated state" of actually playing in the NFL. What would help that even greater? A more amped up crowd.
C. be affected by playing in front of such a large crowd if they came from a smaller school.
D. still be in need of maturing and discovering who they really are, hence in more need of acceptance than you or I.


Yes, seeking support from strangers could be considered weak or lacking in esteem, but embracing acceptance from a million fans that you perceive as "one" isn't a sign of weakness b/c you can personalize "one". Case in point, when players speak of the people who follow their team, do the refer to them in the collective form or do they individualize them. I was under the impression they refer to the fans similarly to how we refer to the players who comprise our team as the "Dolphins".

 

interesting to see some people arguing that a loud crowd does not add to home field advantage.

It's not the end all but it certainly has an effect on games and helps the home team.
There are MANY Orange Bowl Dolphins games that I can name off where that closed end zone helped the Phins out greatly.
Causing false start penalties, interferring with teams abilities to change plays, frustrating opposing QB's, added energy to the Defense players feeding off the crowd (which if any of you have played football or any sport competitively you KNOW this really does help to push you to another level).

It's a very real advantage.
How much of an impact it actually has you can debate but to dismiss it is silly.

 

I was under the impression you're an attorney, but it's possible I have you confused with someone else.
If you are an attorney, then your academic history is quite explanatory. lol.



















Unless you went to some small school in Mexico.

 

If it's an even field then they really don't have to muster up anything.

 

When you take a debate to a radical end like you are here it does nothing but weaken your overall viewpoint on the issue altogether.
Crowd noise is never going to be the main factor in whether a team wins or losses. I have not seen anyone insinuate that a loud crowd would be such an influence that it could will a bad team to Super Bowl status.

Talent and scheme of course are the major issues that determine games.
That said, I don't think you'll ever talk with a coach in football that will not say that outcomes of games are highly influenced by momentum. Crowd noise can create a great home field advantage and help the home team close the gap in their chances of beating a better team with a loud crowd. It can help to create miscommunication, mistakes, fluster opponents and help the home teams defense to an added level of energy feeding off the frenzy.

 

As to you thinking Dolphins stadium has been loud..... from that alone I can tell you've never been to a game at the OB.
There were games there where your head basically felt like it was going to explode from the decibels.... not kidding.

As for your believing that humans are not influenced by influences in their environment that goes against scientific evidence and quite frankly common sense.
Ever been in a large crowd and remember thinking about how the energy was affecting you?
It happens. it's no more radical a viewpoint than the idea that the world is round.

 

Have you read any of the scientific studies regarding this very topic of homefield advantage? They all indicate that it does not provide type of affect for the players.

 

Agreed. I think many of the arguments are either overstating the importance or understating it. It helps to a certain degree, but in the end talent and scheme will be responsible for most of what happens.

 

There are opposing studies adding opposing views to everything out there.
Some people get paid to much to pick apart the obvious.

When you say "Type of affect" you should be able to define exactly what that means.
The study's conclusion negating the affect of home field advantage can be done simply by setting the degree of advantage for the "home team" to high or to a ridiculous level just like Aqua did in his statement about the 2011 Dolphins making the playoffs if they played in front of a loud home crowd. The pointing out of such studies dosen't affect the argument.

In addition there are also plenty of studies to show exactly what that type of environment does to stimulate energy and adrenaline levels.

In addition, simply being a human being who has been involved in sports and gone to large events like concerts I can tell you without any studies needed that environments like that play with your adrenaline levels, focus levels, etc. You don't need a study to tell you this.

 

If you have any studies that support the theory that homefield advantage improves the players' performance, I would be glad to see. All the ones I've seen indicate the only affect is on the performance of the officials.

 

Dj, you're a nice guy and I appreciate your passion regarding this topic, but it's getting ridiculous.

We went 1-12 over a 13 game stretch at home because we sucked. It was simply happenstance that we managed to lose at home rather than in the road. Thus year we went 4-4 at home. We were 6-2 there in 2008 when we made the playoffs.

Instead of just admitting that we've sucked for the last decade, you want to engage in some sort of debate over the magical properties of a stadium. It's ridiculous. Go look at the OB stats if you want. Explain the 40 years pre-Schnellenberger. Look at the actual attendance at the OB during the 58 straight. The Canes averaged around 40k.

The notion that the Canes were urged on by an incredible throng of intimidating spectators is a complete myth. Unless they played Florida State

 

Sure, We can both spend the next hour searching for the sources of studies and compare.

How about addressing the point of personal experience?
Ever played sports in front of a loud crowd?
Ever been to a concert that the energy of the music and crowd noise actually gives you goose bumps and adds to your energy levels?
Ever been caught up in a large marketing environment like an auction where external influences start to make you question your own judgement and causes a desired "buying frenzy" approach?

Come on man... you don't need a study to verify what certain external influences can do to the human mind.

 

I've been to both the Orange Bowl and Sun Life Stadium. The OB was of course louder, because everyone was closer and the product on the field allowed you to be loud consistently. Sun Life has a weird set up but once the crowd gets loud, it's LOUD. It sounds like 30,000+ people screaming DEFENSE. I don't understand how it CAN'T be "loud". THe question is whether the PLAYERS on the FIELD hear it. I would guess that they dont hear it as much as they did in the OB because of the weird sun life stadium set up.

If we were to field a respectable team like we did back then, Sun Life Stadium would be "loud" just as fine. What Mike Dee needs to do is somehow get the fans CLOSER to the field. This argument that the drunk fans in Miami aren't as -LOUD- as other drunk fans is ridiculous. Like, seriously..a stupid notion.

 

I'll make a bet with anybody here.

Put Peyton Manning in the team and tell me it isn't loud when he gets introduced or when he throws a TD

 

I'll make a bet with anybody here.

Put Peyton Manning in the team and tell me it isn't loud when he gets introduced or when he throws a TD

 

Really? Miami did break the record for biggest difference between home and away records. If it was just happenstance, why doesn't it happen all the time?

 

No, none of those had the effects you refer to. I've played in front of large crowds, and it meant nothing.

I don't get goosebumps when I go to shows. I usually wear earphones.

I certainly have never had an external influence make me question my judgement. If I did, I would consider it to be a very negative thing.

Either way, the examples you've used aren't necessarily analogous to crowd noise. I believe someone's words could help one focus, if the proper message is delivered. I believe music could help, because it represents more than crowd noise. There are concepts and stories behind it.

I don't believe that strangers screaming in the stands helps. And there is plenty of research that supports this.

 

It was a fluke. We lost close games at home to the Jets, Pitt, Cleveland and Buffalo. Two of those go the other way then WR aren't having this discussion. And we didn't Lise those games because JRS lacks some magic formula or "energy". We lost due to an average at best roster, below mediocre QB play and borderline incompetent coaching.

There is no stadium or magic spell which overcomes those 3 issues

 

Really? That is so sad.

 

No, I am not an attorney.

 

How so?