Amazing...is there some form of ESP involved that I'm unaware of? Never said that, never inferred that, you are making 'elite" up.
Care to show where anyone threw aroumd the word "elite" as a descriptor of Ginn? Only person I saw using that word was you. Padre said that Ginn is positioned to be the all around threat that he was drafted to be. And he is. If he gets back on return duties, then he's a threat on special teams, and with Henne throwing the ball, he's a threat to go to the house on offense. That was what he was drafted to do. Why be so negative? He's a Dolphin. You might as well try rooting for the guy. Posted via Mobile Device
What a stunning lack of memory Js, he had over 2,000 yds in 2007 on KR, PR and Receiving, that put him in the upper level of yardage leaders in the NFL. This year he can handle kicks, play Wr and do things like run end arounds, that is "all around threat".
Sheets is out of shape, the 49ers practice squad is soft so he may not play unless he can show he won't pop a hamstring if they put him back on kick returns.
No, he only had 1 KR for 24 yards. He was mostly in at RB where he had 39 carries for 177 (and 2 TDs iirc).
Ginn has right around 290 total yards so far, 1710 short of 2000, but even Cobbs had 307 yds so far and Bess had a whopping 57 yds. Cobbs averaged a terrible 60 yds per game, Bess 10 yds per game. That is terrible production on kick returns, but Cobbs would have finished with right around 1,000 in Kr yds and bess 110.. I'm 100% certain Ted Ginn can surpass those numbers...60 yds? 10yds? Sheesh.
I could tell you...but it would cost 10.95 + S&H.... http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_team.php?tab=by_team
Hmm...the only thing I did not include was Ginn's kick off return, the other numbers are fairly accurate, Cobbs was not a good kick returner, Bess had 1 return in the Jets game.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=mia Total Yards: Ginn - 324 total yards (31 rushing, 195 rec, 87 KR, 11 PR) Bess - 252 total yards (11 rushing, 175 rec, 0 KR, 66 PR) Cobbs - 420 total yards (36 rushing, 23, rec, 361 KR, 0 PR)
Bess has 8 punt returns for 66 yards according to ESPN. That gives him 12 yards a game, but 8 yards a punt. Cobbs had 16 for 361 on kick returns, according to ESPN. That's a little over 20 yards a return. Ginn has one punt return for 11 yards, and 4 kick returns for 87 yards. But Gnn at least has the threat of going to the house. Posted via Mobile Device
We were discussing kick returns weren't we? And Ginn's total yardage? We were discussing Cobbs lack of return prowess as well as Bess's..correct? Add Ginn's 33 yd return to his 290ish yards and there ya go...
Which is sort of not very good.. Cobbs had 16 for 361 on kick returns, according to ESPN. That's a little over 20 yards a return.[/QUOTE] Through 5 games that is 70 yds or so per game with a long of 38 and even that was only after a fake reverse to Ginn. Football though, is not sabermetrics, if folks wish to dither over "he has 70ypg" as if ten yards more on 4 attempts is some sort of important milestone, Cobbs was flat out not getting it done, "if' Ginn is put back on return duties he will be in the running for NFL leader in total yardage imho. If he has a 1,000 yd year as a receiver that is a lock, typically the total yardage leader has 2,300 or so, 1,300 yds in 11 games is doable if Ginn breaks a couple of long returns.
You were discussing total yards for all players from what I could tell from your sentence, as you never made a distinction: You didn't quote any posts. You said Ginn had x total yards, while Cobbs had y yards and Bess had z yards. It was pretty dumb to put total yards of one player and compare it to STs yards of two other players (when you never mentioned it was only ST yardage, and didn't factor touches anywhere) without even making a distinction as to how many ST yardage Ginn had in that sentence. You said Cobbs average 60 a game, well you sure made it look like Ginn was only averaging 58 (though he was actually averaging 20 ST yards per game by the standards of that post). Your post was misleading at best. You may have had the right idea, but it sure wasn't formulated clearly IMO (since Ginn was already averaging over 10 yds per game on ST anyway).
On returns, the subject of the thread. I take it one has not read the whole thread? Sorry you feel that way, I've been consistent about Ginn, he should have over 2,000 total yards this season, he is an upgrade over Cobb's 70 yds per game and Bess's 12 ypg. That cannot be written any clearer.
Just to put this to bed, let's assume that Ginn has had five TD returns, and that four were called back on penalty. Meanwhile, he's had about 130 returns without penalty, and one TD in that whole total. Three possibilities: 1. The penalties sprung him. 2. The referees are in a conspiracy against him, and throw a flag every time he's going to score. 3. He's the most unlucky football player in the history of the NFL. I'm going with #1.
It is true though, Ginn had three TD returns called back on holding calls away from the play, it happens, if anything it shows how dangerous a returner he can be for us.
Yeah if you wanna be extremely generous.......lol But using that to describe him as a WR is a fantasy subscribed to by only those that actually thought he was worth his draft slot. He is what he is.......a guy with decent hands and straight line speed.
Of course it can be written more clearly, because Bess is averaging way more than 12 yards per game, and Cobbs more than 70 yards per game. You're misrepresenting their yardage. You could say how many return yards you think Ginn should have, and then compare it to Cobbs and Bess ST yardage. Of course then you should factor in yards per touch as well, or at least quantify the "big plays" that Ginn would give that would make him an upgrade over Cobbs or Bess despite a lower average.
Try again. Ginn averaged 22 back in 2007. In 2008, he was so bad he lost his job. He averaged 20 yards that year, but that counts less toward his average because he only had half as many carries in 2008. It's sort of like a baseball player who hits .300 his rookie year, then in his second year he hits .260 and gets replaced halfway through the year in favor of someone who hits .280. Then in year 3 people are like, why don't we play Mr. X-rookie? He's a .300 hitter! No, he's not. Neither is Ginn.
I'm a generous guy... And I do think he will be that sort of player, but I do not think he will be a huge scoring threat simply because he needs clean misses to break kicks back for TD's, that can happen, but it is rare. He needs (*warning* for the statistically anal, this is a guesstimate) right around 140 total yards per game for 11 games, if he manages a 1,000 yd season receiving, he can get by with 90 yds per game on returns maybe slightly less. At 22 ypa, 4 kick returns, if he can manage 10 ypa attempt on punts he will make that 2,000 total yardage goal.
Am I reading your post correctly? The stats are wrong? Also, based on your example, he is not a .300 hitter. He hit .300 for one season and .260 the next, you then take the average of the two which would be .280. He hits the same as the player you benched him for. I gave you the career average numbers of the 3 players in question, Ginn is better than Cobbs.
In fairness though, even with half the returns, if he had the same amount of return attempts in 2008 he would have broken the 2,000 yard barrier. But the NFL is not baseball, statistical projections of individual performances rarely work out the way they do in baseball.
More or less, but stats do not work in the NFL the way they do in MLB. Baseball is a game based around consistency, Football is based on physicality. For example, on Ginn's 30 yd return, they moved Reggie Torbor up in the formation and he opened a hole for Ginn (per Sparano), there is no statisically reliable metric for that sort of move. Depends on what is being looked for Cobbs was vanilla on returns, but was consistent and never fumbled, Ginn is wildly inconsistent and is known to fumble, but can return kicks for longer yards and TD's.
Ginn has never fumbled on a KR. PR's are a different story, not everyone who can do KR's can do PR's. Concentration is huge for PR's with the opposing team a lot closer. By the way, I hate baseball.
Well we all know that the one called back against Seattle last year was clearly away from the play (Charlie Anderson). Whether Anderson holds or not, Ginn's taking that one to the house on a beautiful move to make a defender miss. BTW, Ginn made a great catch on that beautiful flea flicker bomb on the opening drive. And IIRC, Charlie Anderson also had another big one called back before that game. .......who would've thought....I've been defending Ginn this whole thread (probably only because I feel strongly about having him as a returner being that we have no one else who's better.)
I also remember that after Ginn's return was called back against the Bills, the Buffalo player who had supposedly been held on the play actually told the media that he wasn't held at all.
You obviously didn't watch the games. No point in arguing with you if you're going by what you read on the stat sheet rather than seeing what happened. The penalties were irrelevent to the play, I know, I was watching the games. That 1 TD is more that Bess or Cobbs have and will ever have. They 0 chance to break a long one, anybody with eyes can see that.
Even the Ginn bashers realize Ginn would be the best option on KR. But my god, some people hate Ginn so much they refuse to believe it
The way I read your post I took it to infer that something has changed in 1 game because you posted "To me, Ginn is now in position to be that all around threat he was envisioned being when he was drafted.". What has changed other then a catch for a TD??? If I was in error please accept my sincere humble apologies!!!! I am not down on Ginn. I think him to be talented. Talented enough for the NFL.......yes. A number one.........not yet. Could he.......yes. Will he........I don't know. My problem is the folks that show him the "Love" seem to take a isolated incidents and make it seem like .......finally he has arrived. Until Teddy does things with consistency I am on the fence. He has not shown himself to be a number one. If he is gonna be a number 2......... I am okay with that. Then lets move on; and acquire a number 1, so that we, as a team may thrive. Having Ted Ginn on the rooster is a plus for the Dolphins and a building block we need to be successful. But, making him out to be something he is not drives me crazy. I want him to be successful....it's good for the team. As far as putting him on kicks....he would give us the best chance at winning. But we also know what we got. I don't have film to watch, like the coaches do. There is a reason Sparano has pulled him in favor of others. Maybe it is so he can concentrate solely on being a receiver. If this is a possible reason, is it working???? Others blamed it on the QB. Henne's been in 2 games and Ginn has 3 catches.....1 for a TD, and 2 for 8 yards. That's great, but more production is needed out of our "#1". Game stats 2009: Jacksonville 2 catches 26 yards Carolina 0 catches 0 yards Tampa Bay 1 catch 19 yards New Orleans 2 catches 26 yards Atlanta 2 catches 26 yards Indy 11 catches 108 yards San Diego 0 catches 0 yards Buffalo 1 catch 4 yards NY Jets 2 catches 57 yards 1 TD(53yrds) Total 9 games 21 catches 265 yards 1 TD
Don't know if that was directed at me, but I said somewhere up the thread that we might as well try him back there since Cobbs is out for the year. And I don't think anyone on earth hates Ginn. The real question is whether it would be worth trading a pick to get Cribbs. If we don't do that, I expect you'll see Ginn back on KOs and maybe punts again.
How many catches should a receiver have in a run heavy offense like we have? Some people have unreal expectations. Posted via Mobile Device
Resnor, Tedd Ginn is a Dolphin. Because of it he gets respect and admiration. I like the guy and 100% want him to succeed. I don't dislike him or wish bad things on him. I want him to be successful. I was meerly responding to what I took as "grandstanding" the guy as I like to call it. Please read my post to Padre hopefully that will explain my thoughts on him. To expand further; Ginn has the potential to be very good.....IMO. I haven't seen that yet I have seen flashes of excellence. There comes a point though that for the good of the team you can only wait for a guy to develop for so long. We are 2 1/2 years in now and this year has not been exactly "productive" for Teddy. The team is suffering because there is not a number 1 receiver on it. Maybe acquiring a #1 and letting Ginn learn from him is the answer. Expecting Ginn to learn what he needs to know without a mentor is kind of counter productive......don't ya think. Henne had Pennington......who's Ginn got......Bess.......Fasano.......Camirillo......who?? Maybe Ginns failure to blossom is just as much the coaches fault as it is anyone's. What really is the worse case....we aquire a #1 and Ginn learns from him......now we have 2..#1"s. Hell I'd take that in a second. We can run the ball on anyone. How long do you think that is gonna last. We must have balance or teams are just gonna start stacking the box. Our two weakest areas are safety and wide out. Weather it is Ginns fault or not is arguable. Personally I put it more on the coaches!!!! Regards, Gerry
It is utterly ridiculous that you are including preseason stats since they are completely meaningless. Some of those games he only played one quarter. The fact that you included those shows me that you just want Ginn to look bad.
that changes nothing.. of course, and I should have made it clear before, this is just my opinion of this trade stuff at this point of the season.. and we know about opinions
