I never, ever, ever complain about refs. I always take it as a part of the game. However, I can honestly say - I just about completely lost my mind on a play where Chambers was involved. I am asking on this board simply to see if anyone knows. Here's the situation: * 3rd and 8* Rivers gets the snap, drops back, takes 3 steps to the right to avoid pressure from the left. Chambers is on a hitch/comeback route 9 yards away. The defensive back molests, grabs, and bumps Chambers. THE FLAG IS THROWN. Clear PI or illegal contact. BUT WAIT. The refs, huddle up and talk about the play. Announcement: 'There is no illegal contact on the defender as the QB was out of the pocket.' Now, is this a rule that I just never knew of? I know with a tipped pass you can do whatever the hell you want with a WR/TE. But on an out of the pocket play -- no illegal contact? So you're saying, let's say for example Jay Cutler rolls out right (which is their bread and butter) -- as the play is progressing, most of the time a drag...a defender can bump, make contact with that WR as long as Jay is out of the pocket? Does anyone know this rule?
Anybody? :-) Seriously -- it's been bugging the hell out of me. You guys do know who was the ref for the game right. How in the world he still has a job is beyond me.
This is probably an issue created by the bastardizing of the rules of football. In High School you can jam a receiver all the way down the field. None of the contact (other than holding) matters until the quarterback releases the ball. I'm not familiar with the NFL rule as I do not possess a rule book for that league. But this is my take on that ruling..... "Moving out of the Pocket" declares a man in the backfield on the run. You cannot place a defender in the double jeopardy position of deciding whether its run or pass while the ball is in a backfielders possession on the move. So according to rule, it is wise not to make a defender choose to shed a block or continue being blocked 10 yards down the field. The pocket as referenced in the rule book is created to protect the quarterback - nothing more. So when intentional grounding is not called "because the quarterback was out of the pocket" - you should think they are protecting the quarterback by letting him throw it away. That protection come at a cost. That cost is your receiver getting mugged down the field if your QB vacates the pocket.
If Rivers even thought or running and OR even leaned forward maybe..but he was backpedalling and sidestepping -- there was not a hint of possible run. I wonder if he mis-spoke. But could have not because he was clear in his explanation. 'No illegal contact as QB was out of the pocket.' Hell, even Norv lost is brain and wanted to tackle the ref.
Look what you just said. You just said that he was backpeddling and sidestepping. The pocket has parameters. Did he move outside the pocket? I don't even know the play you are referencing. What I know is that the quarterback gained the right to throw the ball away once he left the pocket. Evidently, the defense got the right to use their hands (because he left the pocket.)
I know what I said. So you mean to tell me, according to the rule, which I apparently did not know. As long as the QB is out of the pocket, the WR he's going to target can be touched, bumped? So if a QB does a playaction roll out...the WR dragging can be bumped beyond 5 yards?
If the QB moves outside the pocket he is deemed a runner and contact can be made. Not if the ball is thrown tho. If its still in his hands you can make contact. Scroll down to Sabre's posting. http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=52274
Yes, the NFL rule of out of the pocket turns the QB into a potential running back. The pocket is where each orignal OT starts at the snap. Thats why when a QB rolls and the OL pulls with him (mislabled in this context as a moving pocket) the QB is outside the pocket once he gets past the point at which either of the OT's originally started at (depending on which side he rolls to). Since he can throw the ball away the minute he is outside the "original" pocket, and not incur intentional grounding, the receivers downfield can become blockers. So the NFL states once the QB is outside the pocket, the defenders have a right to bump and push the receivers in preparation of shedding a potential downfield block, etc, and the QB has given up his main roll as a pure passer.
Interesting. I had no idea. So when we play Denver next year. A primary staple of Shanahan's offense is rollouts and bootleg. When Cutler rolls out, we should tell our defenders to, KNOCK the snot out of the receivers? That would be legal?
P.S. NFL defines the official pocket as such: 22. Pocket Area: Applies from a point two yards outside of either offensive tackle and includes the tight end if he drops off the line of scrimmage to pass protect. Pocket extends longitudinally behind the line back to offensive team’s own end line.
That's another thing. The ball WAS in the air, out of the pocket -- when CC got bumped and pushed. But since it was out of the pocket -- the refs picked up the flag. Weird -- I never heard this rule. I always thought as long as the QB is looking to pass -- and the defenders are running their route -- you cant touch them.
I dont have video of the play, and it wouldnt be the 1st time a ref missed a call, but was the contact occuring while the ball was in the air????? Or was he being bumped and off balance from the bump as the ball was in the air? maybe NFL network will review with that "officiating review" segment they have and discuss this play???
You know what -- ball was in the air when DB made contact with CC. And the FLAG was thrown. Then picked up because Rivers thew on the side (not in pocket).
I know the play you're talking about LT 21 and it was at a critical juncture... that first half was atrotiously called by the refs and I'm glad the Chargers pulled it out in the end. I have seen that specific penalty picked up in the last few years probably a handful of times watching Dolphin games. So, it's rare, but there's definitely a gray area and whenever it's called the networks don't explain what happened properly. Thanks to BDH for finding it in the rules, too bad the refs don't know how to apply it evenhanded. Oh yeah and Phil Luckett is a joke. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Luckett
Thanks for the explanation guys. I really didn't even know this rule existed. Go figure. Like mentioned earlier -- I NEVER complain about the refs as it's part of the game. But that explanation made me quiver screaming HUH!?!?!?! The way it was explained basically said, if he's out of the pocket, the DB can molest/harrass the WR..which I guess is the case. The thing that bothers me about that is I remember the Broncos rolling out, and Marshall on a drag pattern getting accidently bumped by Weddle and they called a flag for illegal contact. So I guess the rule exists and depending on that split second (up to the ref) when the ball is released, etc... Interesting -- Thanks dudes...You guys rock. A lot of fans are complaining about the Weddle hold on the 89 Yard TD return. 50.50 call, I had no problem with it. The only thing, it was actually Weddle being held and slammed to the ground. Go figure.
