Gase vs Ross

I think any concept of "intelligence" for head coaches has to include the ability to adapt the game plan to the players the coach has to work with, and that's something Gase has not shown the ability to do. It doesn't really matter if an idea works on paper if that idea requires a talent like Peyton Manning to execute.

"cbrad wrote:

I think any concept of "intelligence" for head coaches has to include the ability to adapt the game plan to the players the coach has to work with, and that's something Gase has not shown the ability to do. So it doesn't really matter if an idea works on paper if that idea requires a talent like Peyton Manning to execute.

That's why I said he's not a good coach. I'm certain that his ideas are spot on, but his inability to adjust his ideas to his players and relay them to his personnel in a manner in which they can understand them makes him a bad coach.

"danmarino wrote:

That's why I said he's not a good coach. I'm certain that his ideas are spot on, but his inability to adjust his ideas to his players and relay them to his personnel in a manner in which they can understand them makes him a bad coach.

Maybe we're splitting hairs, but I wouldn't consider the idea a good idea unless it can be executed by the players the coach has. That's also independent of whether he can teach those ideas to the players. We can agree he isn't good at teaching, but I wouldn't even say he has great ideas because we've seen his play calling and that just doesn't work well with the talent we have.

"Rock Sexton wrote:

Smartest guy how though? Where was that moment that left us all sitting there thinking he's playing 4D chess?

As I said, we won seven games this year with mainly our 2nd string offense ....which was better than about half the league. It sucks key people went down for the season and it's very easy to say, "We should have been a playoff team", but the reality was that we just weren't that good of a team with what was left.

You asked for specifics though- specifically, the Miracle in Miami. Showcasing Wilson and Drake as outside receivers (they've always been slot..and many of you called Jakeem a bust). Winning a game with 100% of his offensive line out, his top receiver, and relying on Osweiler's noodle arm. We sucked yet we just kept finding ways to win. All that impresses me.

As I said earlier, we probably shouldn't have won a game after week 3 (when we were ironically 3-0). But this team just kept fighting under Gase and shocking people. To me, that's not a guy you fire. And for the record, I was critical of Gase often this season....the runs on 3rd and 10, no deep passes down the stretch, etc. Overall though, I think he's worlds better than Sparano or Philbin and I seriously doubt we lure in a better candidate. I personally would not have let Gase walk since it was pretty clear that everyone in the front office (Ross included) wanted him there.

Again, that's my opinion......feel free to take it or leave it.

And PS- for those of you that said I'm delusional, I've written detailed team reviews here for many years now. Go back and take a look at my delusional insights- I was right a heck of a lot more than any Miami beat writer. For instance, in 2016 I called for Ajayi to be benched in week 1. I said we were about to win 6 straight games and gave the reasoning why. On Tannehill...read my reviews from 2014 when I said exactly what everyone is now preaching today. I'll gladly compare predictions with anyone.

"cbrad wrote:

Maybe we're splitting hairs, but I wouldn't consider the idea a good idea unless it can be executed by the players the coach has. That's also independent of whether he can teach those ideas to the players. We can agree he isn't good at teaching, but I wouldn't even say he has great ideas because we've seen his play calling and that just doesn't work well with the talent we have.

Let's be precise....with the 2nd string talent. It's not a coincidence that as linemen and receivers got hurt, the offense became less exciting and we won less ballgames. We started 3-0 with the complete first string offense and remained above .500 until Wilson, Tannehill and Grant were all down (along with 3-5 starting linemen).

Some here say that's making excuses, but I consider it logical fact. There's a point of no return on injuries for any team and I think we crossed that threshold on offense by week 8. I would have loved continued miracles as much as anyone (like the NE game) but let's be honest....did anyone here actually expect it? It simply wasn't realistic.

"KeyFin wrote:

Let's be precise....with the 2nd string talent. It's not a coincidence that as linemen and receivers got hurt, the offense became less exciting and we won less ballgames. We started 3-0 with the complete first string offense and remained above .500 until Wilson, Tannehill and Grant were all down (along with 3-5 starting linemen).

Some here say that's making excuses, but I consider it logical fact. There's a point of no return on injuries for any team and I think we crossed that threshold on offense by week 8. I would have loved continued miracles as much as anyone (like the NE game) but let's be honest....did anyone here actually expect it? It simply wasn't realistic.

Even if you say that, a good offensive coach shouldn't be coaching the team to 26th in points scored. An average offensive coach would be expected to do that! And what's the excuse for 2016? We had the 17th best scoring offense, in other words "average". Even Philbin with Tannehill in 2014 did better.

Also, you keep bringing up the first 3 games, but we scored 75 points in those 3 games, or 25 points per game. The league average is 23.34 ppg. You think 25 ppg is evidence of a good offensive coach?

Also.. Gase's offense has never scored more than 35 points in any game, and that was with Cutler. KC averaged 35.3 ppg this year lol.

I don't see any evidence Gase is any kind of great football mind.

"KeyFin wrote:

As I said, we won seven games this year with mainly our 2nd string offense ....which was better than about half the league. It sucks key people went down for the season and it's very easy to say, "We should have been a playoff team", but the reality was that we just weren't that good of a team with what was left.

You asked for specifics though- specifically, the Miracle in Miami. Showcasing Wilson and Drake as outside receivers (they've always been slot..and many of you called Jakeem a bust). Winning a game with 100% of his offensive line out, his top receiver, and relying on Osweiler's noodle arm. We sucked yet we just kept finding ways to win. All that impresses me.

As I said earlier, we probably shouldn't have won a game after week 3 (when we were ironically 3-0). But this team just kept fighting under Gase and shocking people. To me, that's not a guy you fire. And for the record, I was critical of Gase often this season....the runs on 3rd and 10, no deep passes down the stretch, etc. Overall though, I think he's worlds better than Sparano or Philbin and I seriously doubt we lure in a better candidate. I personally would not have let Gase walk since it was pretty clear that everyone in the front office (Ross included) wanted him there.

Again, that's my opinion......feel free to take it or leave it.

- They were 2-3 with Brock Assweiler and as the weeks wore on the more pathetic the offense became due to his glaring limitations so there was no miracle Gase wizardry
- The Miracle in Miami was a fluke play further enabled because of BB's ridiculous idea to let Gronk defend a hail mary that was never coming
- Wilson played all the WR positions in KC, albeit lacked PT because of the glut of talent on the Chiefs
- Jakeen Grant was also the man Gase refused to put on the field with any consistency last year
- Drake? You mean the same coach that signed a fossil named Frank Gore to vulture carries from him? RB's lining up outside is nothing new in today's NFL
- I can't even recall the game you're referring to with all the offensive line out so I can't comment
- Combined win % of the teams we beat: 47%
- Speaking of those wins - it took a fluke 7 hour affair in Week 1 and injuries to the Titans, miserable heat on the field which left the Bears defense completely zapped in the 4th Q, and once again a fluke lateral vs. the Patriots (who always struggle in Miami)
- No wins of significance on the road
- Nearly half of the wins came in the first three weeks of the year (2 against the world beating Jets and Raiders) before Gase and his team were exposed for what they really were up in Foxboro

"cbrad wrote:

Even if you say that, a good offensive coach shouldn't be coaching the team to 26th in points scored. What's the excuse for 2016? We had the 17th best scoring offense, in other words "average". Even Philbin with Tannehill in 2014 did better.

I don't see any evidence Gase is any kind of great football mind.

Just goes to show you that he's not a big mastermind and the differential he's good for was minimal.

"cbrad wrote:

I think any concept of "intelligence" for head coaches has to include the ability to adapt the game plan to the players the coach has to work with, and that's something Gase has not shown the ability to do. It doesn't really matter if an idea works on paper if that idea requires a talent like Peyton Manning to execute.

How so. What proof do you have that any coach could have done better. And what specifically should he have done different and prove why that would have worked

"adamprez2003 wrote:

How so. What proof do you have that any coach could have done better. And what specifically should he have done different and prove why that would have worked

No I have no proof. It's just my opinion that there are other coaches out there that would have done better even with our personnel. And I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption to make considering how low our offensive output was.

"resnor wrote:

Was it well known that he was a coke head? You keep using that as some sort proof of something...

I’ve worked around enough addicts (coke-heads, alcoholics, meth-heads) to know it’s pretty obvious that you’re dealing with one. However it surprises me how often these people get promoted and it seems related to them (a) attributing failure to lack of effort by others and (b) yelling at others to do things instead of teaching/training which makes them appear to be “alpha dogs”.

But that’s a side issue. The real issue is that the guy was hired to get a bad OL into shape and the OL had made no real improvement in the 2 offseasons and 1.5 seasons it was under his control. He should have been gone already before any of the coke and hookers mess became public.

Billy Turner, who we burned in “the purge” has become a fairly steady starter for the Denver Broncos. The guy was an absolute turnstile for us, yet away from captain cokehead’s guidance he’s developed to the point where another team wants to sign him as a long term starter for their OL. Jamil Douglas and Dallas Thomas on the other hand, as far as I can tell, never played a snap for any other team yet we went into 2016 with those 2 as key parts of the line. He was wrong on all three of them one he should have been able to be develop into a solid player and the other 2 should never have been still on the roster after the pre-season cutdowns.

"cbrad wrote:

No I have no proof. It's just my opinion that there are other coaches out there that would have done better even with our personnel. And I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption to make considering how low our offensive output was.

And I completely respect your opinion (as well as everyone else's). We just disagree and only time will tell who's right or wrong. As always, I hope we're 16-0 next season with a mastermind coach and a great offense...I'm just very skeptical at this point since the owner (you know, the guy that will hire our next coach) doesn't even believe it's possible.

"cbrad wrote:

Maybe we're splitting hairs, but I wouldn't consider the idea a good idea unless it can be executed by the players the coach has. That's also independent of whether he can teach those ideas to the players. We can agree he isn't good at teaching, but I wouldn't even say he has great ideas because we've seen his play calling and that just doesn't work well with the talent we have.

If I can speak Spanish, but cant teach a person to speak Spanish that doesn't mean I'm bad at speaking Spanish.

His play calling was fine for the most part. The execution was poor.

"cbrad wrote:

No I have no proof. It's just my opinion that there are other coaches out there that would have done better even with our personnel. And I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption to make considering how low our offensive output was.

What coaches and what would they have done different

"KeyFin wrote:

As I said, we won seven games this year with mainly our 2nd string offense ....which was better than about half the league. It sucks key people went down for the season and it's very easy to say, "We should have been a playoff team", but the reality was that we just weren't that good of a team with what was left.

You asked for specifics though- specifically, the Miracle in Miami. Showcasing Wilson and Drake as outside receivers (they've always been slot..and many of you called Jakeem a bust). Winning a game with 100% of his offensive line out, his top receiver, and relying on Osweiler's noodle arm. We sucked yet we just kept finding ways to win. All that impresses me.

As I said earlier, we probably shouldn't have won a game after week 3 (when we were ironically 3-0). But this team just kept fighting under Gase and shocking people. To me, that's not a guy you fire. And for the record, I was critical of Gase often this season....the runs on 3rd and 10, no deep passes down the stretch, etc. Overall though, I think he's worlds better than Sparano or Philbin and I seriously doubt we lure in a better candidate. I personally would not have let Gase walk since it was pretty clear that everyone in the front office (Ross included) wanted him there.

Again, that's my opinion......feel free to take it or leave it.

And PS- for those of you that said I'm delusional, I've written detailed team reviews here for many years now. Go back and take a look at my delusional insights- I was right a heck of a lot more than any Miami beat writer. For instance, in 2016 I called for Ajayi to be benched in week 1. I said we were about to win 6 straight games and gave the reasoning why. On Tannehill...read my reviews from 2014 when I said exactly what everyone is now preaching today. I'll gladly compare predictions with anyone.

Ajayi is largely the reason we made the playoffs in 2016, and not gase's so called genius. Your opinion is not worth much imo.

"adamprez2003 wrote:

What coaches and what would they have done different

How would I know? It's a statistical argument. The probability that an offensive coach whose team for 3 years in a row was anywhere from slightly below average to near bottom of the barrel in offensive production happens to be so great that no one else could do better with the same personnel is what? 100% in your mind?

Nah.. I refuse to believe that. Generally speaking stuff "averages out" with larger sample size and the chance these 3 years were such an exceptional situation that no other coach could do better is nearly zero, if any experience with statistics is useful here. Can I actually do the calculations? No. Do I have a decent intuition for what to expect when I see such numbers. Yeah, given that I work with and develop new methods of statistical analysis myself.

No one here can offer "proof". That's why it's called an opinion. It would even be opinion to argue coach X could do Y and that would work. No one, not even an NFL coach, could come in here and say that's anything more than opinion until he proves it with the same personnel.

"Surfs Up 99 wrote:

Are you sure about that? It was Ross and not Tannenbaum? This is the first I have heard of that. Not happy, if that is the case!

It's an old story. Guess who the guy was that Gase wanted? Vic Fangio lol. They been friends since the Chicago days.

"adamprez2003 wrote:

It's an old story. Guess who the guy was that Gase wanted? Vic Fangio lol. They been friends since the Chicago days.

An old story nobody seems able to produce. Also first I'm hearing of Fangio - Richards was mentioned earlier. This is starting to turn into telephone.

"texanphinatic wrote:

An old story nobody seems able to produce. Also first I'm hearing of Fangio - Richards was mentioned earlier. This is starting to turn into telephone.

Awwwww. Tweet cannata. Ask him. Not the first time Gase wanted fangio. He turned down the San Francisco job because they wouldn't let him choose defensive coordinator. He wanted fangio back then too

"adamprez2003 wrote:

It's an old story. Guess who the guy was that Gase wanted? Vic Fangio lol. They been friends since the Chicago days.

I heard he wanted Fangio when he was interviewed for the 49er HC job. Do you have a link that he wanted Fangio when he became the HC for the phins or is that lost along with the link that he was forced to hire Matt Burke?

"danmarino wrote:

If I can speak Spanish, but cant teach a person to speak Spanish that doesn't mean I'm bad at speaking Spanish.

His play calling was fine for the most part. The execution was poor.

His individual play design was good, but his strategy was poor.
The Dolphins lead the league in 50+ yard TDs, and Indon’t think it was even close by theend of tne year. Yay! Our HC/OC is a genius.
The Dolphins had a very high rate of 3 and outs and a poor 3rd down covernsion rate. Boo! We can’t build pressure against an opponent.
Our D forced a lot of turnivers. Yah! Our HC is a genius.
Our D gave up a lot of yards and was bad at preventing 3rd down coversions. Boo, we can’t build pressure against an opponent.

Our offensive strategy was to bait our opponents into thinking one way and then going counter to their expectations for the big gains. By season’s end it was clear that inability of the offense to stay on the field or score reliably was a strategic probkem. However it was paired with the wide-9 defense, which is predicated on the offense creating a lead allowing our D to attack the opposing O. This created a strategic catastrophe.

The trouble is that our D iwas built on the assumption our O could score reliably. But if the opponent jumped to an early lead the wide 9 (as deployed by us) was vulnerable to rushing and short passing chewing up time and yards, creating more opportunities for the D to give up points. Our offense couldscore from anywhere anytime, but couldn’t control time and field position when needed.

There was a fundamental irreconcilable difference between our D and our O. That falls squarely on Gase. If you want to run a quick strike offense you need a D that’s good at stopping opponents on 3rd down because this will give your quick strike offense plenty of opportunities. If you want to runa wide 9 attacking D you need an offense that will march down the field and score at least FGs regulalrly as it is the regular buildup of the score that forces your opponent into giving up the shor game.

The strategic decisions made by Gase are what caused the Dolphins to have so many blow out losses because early failure by either the O or the D put the Dolphins in a position where failure compounded failure.

I get that at times players screwed up their assignments. That happens to other teams too. The deeper problem is that strategy adopted by Gase relied on swinging for home runs whereby any screw up in assignment was often a catastrophic failure, not a setback that could be easily overcome.

"mooseguts wrote:

I heard he wanted Fangio when he was interviewed for the 49er HC job. Do you have a link that he wanted Fangio when he became the HC for the phins or is that lost along with the link that he was forced to hire Matt Burke?

Tweet cannata. That's the original source. Let's be clear. He wasn't forced to hire burke. He was simply told to hire from within. I think he may have chosen Burke given those narrow parameters but that doesn't mean he wanted him. He wanted an experienced DC. But was turned down but not when he was first hired. It's only after Vance Joseph left and had to be replaced. Ross had shelled out big bucks for Joseph only to see him bail right away. Fangio was another coordinator that would be on the head coach interview circuit every offseason. Ross just saw it as being too expensive

"Pauly wrote:

His individual play design was good, but his strategy was poor.
The Dolphins lead the league in 50+ yard TDs, and Indon’t think it was even close by theend of tne year. Yay! Our HC/OC is a genius.
The Dolphins had a very high rate of 3 and outs and a poor 3rd down covernsion rate. Boo! We can’t build pressure against an opponent.
Our D forced a lot of turnivers. Yah! Our HC is a genius.
Our D gave up a lot of yards and was bad at preventing 3rd down coversions. Boo, we can’t build pressure against an opponent.

Our offensive strategy was to bait our opponents into thinking one way and then going counter to their expectations for the big gains. By season’s end it was clear that inability of the offense to stay on the field or score reliably was a strategic probkem. However it was paired with the wide-9 defense, which is predicated on the offense creating a lead allowing our D to attack the opposing O. This created a strategic catastrophe.

The trouble is that our D iwas built on the assumption our O could score reliably. But if the opponent jumped to an early lead the wide 9 (as deployed by us) was vulnerable to rushing and short passing chewing up time and yards, creating more opportunities for the D to give up points. Our offense couldscore from anywhere anytime, but couldn’t control time and field position when needed.

There was a fundamental irreconcilable difference between our D and our O. That falls squarely on Gase. If you want to run a quick strike offense you need a D that’s good at stopping opponents on 3rd down because this will give your quick strike offense plenty of opportunities. If you want to runa wide 9 attacking D you need an offense that will march down the field and score at least FGs regulalrly as it is the regular buildup of the score that forces your opponent into giving up the shor game.

The strategic decisions made by Gase are what caused the Dolphins to have so many blow out losses because early failure by either the O or the D put the Dolphins in a position where failure compounded failure.

I get that at times players screwed up their assignments. That happens to other teams too. The deeper problem is that strategy adopted by Gase relied on swinging for home runs whereby any screw up in assignment was often a catastrophic failure, not a setback that could be easily overcome.

I put that more into talent

"adamprez2003 wrote:

Tweet cannata. That's the original source. Let's be clear. He wasn't forced to hire burke. He was simply told to hire from within. I think he may have chosen Burke given those narrow parameters but that doesn't mean he wanted him. He wanted an experienced DC. But was turned down but not when he was first hired. It's only after Vance Joseph left and had to be replaced. Ross had shelled out big bucks for Joseph only to see him bail right away. Fangio was another coordinator that would be on the head coach interview circuit every offseason. Ross just saw it as being too expensive

If the only source is a twitter rumor than I'll take it with a grain of salt. Ross has never been stingy when it comes to the Dolphins I don't see why all of sudden he would be tight fisted. Ross may not hire the right people and may not know football but cheap he has not been.

Even if there is even a shred of truth to this (which I doubt) I'm sure he wasn't forced to retain Burke as DC for the past 2 years. He could have fired him at some point this season given how awful they were just to try someone else....how much worse could it have been.

This article states that Gase preferred an in house candidate. Now that could be BS but so could your twitter rumor.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/sfl-vance-joseph-named-denver-s-head-coach-after-one-year-as-dolphins-defensive-coordinator-20170111-story.html

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I put that more into talent

There was a clear and clearly stated strategy to get rid of slower players for burners. Landry was let go and Wilson signed for example. Part of that was Gase’s vision of an offense that could strike from anywhere on the field. Acquiring Wilson, Stills, Ballage, Drake and Grant was all about loading up the team with home run threats on every play.