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Gase vs Ross

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fame, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Even if you say that, a good offensive coach shouldn't be coaching the team to 26th in points scored. An average offensive coach would be expected to do that! And what's the excuse for 2016? We had the 17th best scoring offense, in other words "average". Even Philbin with Tannehill in 2014 did better.

    Also, you keep bringing up the first 3 games, but we scored 75 points in those 3 games, or 25 points per game. The league average is 23.34 ppg. You think 25 ppg is evidence of a good offensive coach?

    Also.. Gase's offense has never scored more than 35 points in any game, and that was with Cutler. KC averaged 35.3 ppg this year lol.

    I don't see any evidence Gase is any kind of great football mind.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  2. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    - They were 2-3 with Brock Assweiler and as the weeks wore on the more pathetic the offense became due to his glaring limitations so there was no miracle Gase wizardry
    - The Miracle in Miami was a fluke play further enabled because of BB's ridiculous idea to let Gronk defend a hail mary that was never coming
    - Wilson played all the WR positions in KC, albeit lacked PT because of the glut of talent on the Chiefs
    - Jakeen Grant was also the man Gase refused to put on the field with any consistency last year
    - Drake? You mean the same coach that signed a fossil named Frank Gore to vulture carries from him? RB's lining up outside is nothing new in today's NFL
    - I can't even recall the game you're referring to with all the offensive line out so I can't comment
    - Combined win % of the teams we beat: 47%
    - Speaking of those wins - it took a fluke 7 hour affair in Week 1 and injuries to the Titans, miserable heat on the field which left the Bears defense completely zapped in the 4th Q, and once again a fluke lateral vs. the Patriots (who always struggle in Miami)
    - No wins of significance on the road
    - Nearly half of the wins came in the first three weeks of the year (2 against the world beating Jets and Raiders) before Gase and his team were exposed for what they really were up in Foxboro
     
  3. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Just goes to show you that he's not a big mastermind and the differential he's good for was minimal.
     
  4. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    How so. What proof do you have that any coach could have done better. And what specifically should he have done different and prove why that would have worked
     
  5. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    No I have no proof. It's just my opinion that there are other coaches out there that would have done better even with our personnel. And I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption to make considering how low our offensive output was.
     
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  6. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I’ve worked around enough addicts (coke-heads, alcoholics, meth-heads) to know it’s pretty obvious that you’re dealing with one. However it surprises me how often these people get promoted and it seems related to them (a) attributing failure to lack of effort by others and (b) yelling at others to do things instead of teaching/training which makes them appear to be “alpha dogs”.

    But that’s a side issue. The real issue is that the guy was hired to get a bad OL into shape and the OL had made no real improvement in the 2 offseasons and 1.5 seasons it was under his control. He should have been gone already before any of the coke and hookers mess became public.

    Billy Turner, who we burned in “the purge” has become a fairly steady starter for the Denver Broncos. The guy was an absolute turnstile for us, yet away from captain cokehead’s guidance he’s developed to the point where another team wants to sign him as a long term starter for their OL. Jamil Douglas and Dallas Thomas on the other hand, as far as I can tell, never played a snap for any other team yet we went into 2016 with those 2 as key parts of the line. He was wrong on all three of them one he should have been able to be develop into a solid player and the other 2 should never have been still on the roster after the pre-season cutdowns.
     
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  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    And I completely respect your opinion (as well as everyone else's). We just disagree and only time will tell who's right or wrong. As always, I hope we're 16-0 next season with a mastermind coach and a great offense...I'm just very skeptical at this point since the owner (you know, the guy that will hire our next coach) doesn't even believe it's possible.
     
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  8. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If I can speak Spanish, but cant teach a person to speak Spanish that doesn't mean I'm bad at speaking Spanish.

    His play calling was fine for the most part. The execution was poor.
     
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  9. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    What coaches and what would they have done different
     
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  10. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Ajayi is largely the reason we made the playoffs in 2016, and not gase's so called genius. Your opinion is not worth much imo.
     
  11. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    How would I know? It's a statistical argument. The probability that an offensive coach whose team for 3 years in a row was anywhere from slightly below average to near bottom of the barrel in offensive production happens to be so great that no one else could do better with the same personnel is what? 100% in your mind?

    Nah.. I refuse to believe that. Generally speaking stuff "averages out" with larger sample size and the chance these 3 years were such an exceptional situation that no other coach could do better is nearly zero, if any experience with statistics is useful here. Can I actually do the calculations? No. Do I have a decent intuition for what to expect when I see such numbers. Yeah, given that I work with and develop new methods of statistical analysis myself.

    No one here can offer "proof". That's why it's called an opinion. It would even be opinion to argue coach X could do Y and that would work. No one, not even an NFL coach, could come in here and say that's anything more than opinion until he proves it with the same personnel.
     
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  12. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    It's an old story. Guess who the guy was that Gase wanted? Vic Fangio lol. They been friends since the Chicago days.
     
  13. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    An old story nobody seems able to produce. Also first I'm hearing of Fangio - Richards was mentioned earlier. This is starting to turn into telephone.
     
  14. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Awwwww. Tweet cannata. Ask him. Not the first time Gase wanted fangio. He turned down the San Francisco job because they wouldn't let him choose defensive coordinator. He wanted fangio back then too
     
  15. mooseguts

    mooseguts Active Member

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    I heard he wanted Fangio when he was interviewed for the 49er HC job. Do you have a link that he wanted Fangio when he became the HC for the phins or is that lost along with the link that he was forced to hire Matt Burke?
     
  16. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    His individual play design was good, but his strategy was poor.
    The Dolphins lead the league in 50+ yard TDs, and Indon’t think it was even close by theend of tne year. Yay! Our HC/OC is a genius.
    The Dolphins had a very high rate of 3 and outs and a poor 3rd down covernsion rate. Boo! We can’t build pressure against an opponent.
    Our D forced a lot of turnivers. Yah! Our HC is a genius.
    Our D gave up a lot of yards and was bad at preventing 3rd down coversions. Boo, we can’t build pressure against an opponent.

    Our offensive strategy was to bait our opponents into thinking one way and then going counter to their expectations for the big gains. By season’s end it was clear that inability of the offense to stay on the field or score reliably was a strategic probkem. However it was paired with the wide-9 defense, which is predicated on the offense creating a lead allowing our D to attack the opposing O. This created a strategic catastrophe.

    The trouble is that our D iwas built on the assumption our O could score reliably. But if the opponent jumped to an early lead the wide 9 (as deployed by us) was vulnerable to rushing and short passing chewing up time and yards, creating more opportunities for the D to give up points. Our offense couldscore from anywhere anytime, but couldn’t control time and field position when needed.

    There was a fundamental irreconcilable difference between our D and our O. That falls squarely on Gase. If you want to run a quick strike offense you need a D that’s good at stopping opponents on 3rd down because this will give your quick strike offense plenty of opportunities. If you want to runa wide 9 attacking D you need an offense that will march down the field and score at least FGs regulalrly as it is the regular buildup of the score that forces your opponent into giving up the shor game.

    The strategic decisions made by Gase are what caused the Dolphins to have so many blow out losses because early failure by either the O or the D put the Dolphins in a position where failure compounded failure.

    I get that at times players screwed up their assignments. That happens to other teams too. The deeper problem is that strategy adopted by Gase relied on swinging for home runs whereby any screw up in assignment was often a catastrophic failure, not a setback that could be easily overcome.
     
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  17. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Tweet cannata. That's the original source. Let's be clear. He wasn't forced to hire burke. He was simply told to hire from within. I think he may have chosen Burke given those narrow parameters but that doesn't mean he wanted him. He wanted an experienced DC. But was turned down but not when he was first hired. It's only after Vance Joseph left and had to be replaced. Ross had shelled out big bucks for Joseph only to see him bail right away. Fangio was another coordinator that would be on the head coach interview circuit every offseason. Ross just saw it as being too expensive
     
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  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree I drink your milkshake! Club Member

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    I put that more into talent
     
  19. mooseguts

    mooseguts Active Member

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    If the only source is a twitter rumor than I'll take it with a grain of salt. Ross has never been stingy when it comes to the Dolphins I don't see why all of sudden he would be tight fisted. Ross may not hire the right people and may not know football but cheap he has not been.

    Even if there is even a shred of truth to this (which I doubt) I'm sure he wasn't forced to retain Burke as DC for the past 2 years. He could have fired him at some point this season given how awful they were just to try someone else....how much worse could it have been.

    This article states that Gase preferred an in house candidate. Now that could be BS but so could your twitter rumor.

    https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports...ins-defensive-coordinator-20170111-story.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
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  20. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    There was a clear and clearly stated strategy to get rid of slower players for burners. Landry was let go and Wilson signed for example. Part of that was Gase’s vision of an offense that could strike from anywhere on the field. Acquiring Wilson, Stills, Ballage, Drake and Grant was all about loading up the team with home run threats on every play.
     
  21. Patster1969

    Patster1969 Member

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    The team on the 3 Yards Per Carry podcast mentioned it weeks ago - no DC was named but the source they quoted did back up the 'Ross didn't want to stump up for the experienced DC' comment. Again, could have been the same twitter rumours though
     
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  22. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Of course either could be BS. THese are closed door meetings. Why it makes sense is that Ross just paid Vance Joseph a huge amount only to see the guy leave the next year. It makes sense it was Fangio because Gase already tried to get him as DC when interviewing with the 49ers. It makes sense because Fangio was on the NFL radar for future head coaching prospects. Ross just probably said I'm not wasting money on a guy who might not be here more than a year again.

    Conversely does it make sense that a coach preoccupied with offense would want to leave the responsibilities of DC to a rookie. Just for peace of mind I would think that when looking at his tablet on the sideline he would want an experienced coach out there coaching his defense
     
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  23. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    An outlier like that will have a huge amount of luck as well. It is unlikely we would reproduce that result consistently, even with getting Wilson and Grant back.
     
  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Consider this- we had two of the "fastest" runners for TD's last season and neither of them were by Grant or Wilson. Yet they were #1 and 2 by a wide margin of time to separation and total separation. We started out with an extremely fast team and I wouldn't chalk that up to just luck- it's a huge advantage when you're 1 pass away from a TD from anywhere on the field.
     
  25. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    The problem wasn’t the “1 pass away from a TD frm anywhere on the field”. In fact that’s where I see where people calling Gase a genuis are getting their kool-aid from. Gase did some really good work designing the plays and acquiring the players that set up those lightning strikes.
    Same with the defense collecting red zone turnovers like fat kids collecting pokemons. Gase acquired the talent and scheme that got those defensive lightning strikes.

    The problem was what we did in between the lightning strikes.
     
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  26. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Put on the tape and re-watch those long TDs. Off the top of my head the only 2 offensive TDs I would consider lucky were Carroo’s grab over the top of the CB and the Miami Miracle. All the others, as far as I recall, were well designed plays all about putting the ball in the hands of burners with green grass in front of them
     
  27. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    I work with a cokehead and it irritates me every day that none of my supervisors acknowledge it because the signs are blatant. In fact they gave her a big promotion last year and it's scary to think that she's in charge of her own team now. I lost a lot of respect for that place after that.
     
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  28. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    That's it right there. Nearly every time this team has gotten going in the Gase tenure, it was because of the run game and yet he'd stubbornly go away from it to enforce this so-called genius passing attack he supposedly had cooking. The Patriots game this year was quintessential example - we had Ballage and Bolden rotting on the bench for how long this year?
     
  29. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Sounds like Fangio was in the same boat as Vance. If he was a name coming up on lists for head coach, then there was no way Ross was going to pay him for 1 year.
     
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  30. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Jet sweeps.

    While it did look a bit different than prior incarnations of the offense because they finally had speed - the whole league is running those plays now. Does that make all those other OC's geniuses or copycats of Andy Reid? The problem became when teams pressed those little guys and suddenly the speed advantage disappeared.

    Wish we could have had Wilson/Grant healthy all season to get a more substantial look, but there-in became another problem - health, which has been a hallmark of the Gase tenure.
     
  31. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    The problem is we can't just ask him to never make a decision.

    Most owners get the title of good/bad but the reality is most are the same. Most don't know more than the average fan about the game.

    So what makes an owner successful? The hiring of people who do know football to run operations. This is partly good hiring and a heck of a lot of luck.

    When you make those hires you have to trust those people. Maybe it was Grier, a football guy, who wants to rebuild. Since Ross hired him to make those decisions (especially with Tannenbaum gone) he has to trust him.

    In the end we don't know what happened but I doubt it was on a whim.
     
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  32. mooseguts

    mooseguts Active Member

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    Umm yes since Vance Joseph was a rookie DC, clearly that signifies that Gase is ok with hiring a rookie DC. It would also make sense that he would prefer to hire Matt Burke since Burke coached with Joseph for 2 years in Cincy so logically it would "seem like a "smooth" transition and as the article I referenced said for the sake of continuity. It would also make sense to prefer Burke because Fangio runs a 3-4 which means they have to go get players who fit the system and the current players have to learn a whole new system. Which sounds like a defensive rebuild and as other articles have said Gase is not down for a rebuild.

    Ultimately maybe he did want Vic Fangio when he interviewed with the 49ers and maybe he wanted Fangio because he didn't want a rookie DC even though Joseph was one but there's no way to know if Fangio himself wanted to work under Gase.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
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  33. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Doesn't mean luck was not involved. Also means that defenses would likely be able to diagnose and close ranks the next season.

    Doesn't really matter - other teams also have many fast players. Defenses have fast players. When you are that much of an outlier, it is bound to regress, and saying otherwise is just hoping against the inevitable. It's similar to turnovers. Every year a team has a large number of takeaways you hear stuff like how they are coached to go after strips and whatnot. Yeah, every team does that - it's largely luck. It's why things like the Pats absurdly low fumble rates at home stick out like a sore thumb and lead to cheating accusations.

    I think it also worth pointing out that when you load up on small, leaner, previously low-use speed guys and use them heavily ... that's asking for injuries. So just assuming we had bad injury luck is dicey.
     
  34. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    Honeslty I’ve got more trust in Gase than I do Ross at this point. In 10 years, we’ve been in an almost constant state of rebuilding due to organizational structures, GM’s, coaches and players. The one constant is ownership and direction of this franchise. Unfortunately you can’t fire owners.
     
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  35. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Exactly. I can understand Ross's reasoning here
     
  36. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Actually, Gase wanted to go 3-4 from the start but him and Joseph decided they didn't have the personnel. Supposedly we were going to finally make the switch in 2019. It might explain why we got rid of Jordan Phillips and Suh
     
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  37. mooseguts

    mooseguts Active Member

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    Gase wanted the 3-4 from the start? More rumors from twitter or do you have a link? We were going to switch to the 3-4 in 2019 so we traded for Quinn in 2018 who everyone swore was a better 4-3 DE than a 3-4 LB. Got rid of Suh like he wouldn't be an excellent 3-4 DE or as the Rams have shown a NT, also got rid of 6-6 341 lb Phillips who fits the mold of a NT more accurately than any other DT currently on the roster. Plus supposedly he wanted to draft a QB.

    What you're saying contradicts this very thread that has said Gase wants to win now and does not want a rebuild. Yet he wants to draft a QB and change the entire defense?

    If he truly wanted to change defensive schemes and draft a new QB, that just sounds like a man who is grasping to buy himself more time because he knows the end was near. It's like when a tv show adds a new character to spice things up and try to get those rating back up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  38. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Gase wanted to bring Fangio to Miami.

    It's not that Ross didn't want to pony up the money, it was he thought he'd end up ponying up the money only to have Fangio leave in a year or two to become a HC.
     
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  39. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Vance prefers a 3-4. The Dolphins personnel, most notably Suh's contract, made it virtually impossible to switch over.
     
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  40. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    The switch to 3-4 is definitely a rumor. It goes back to January 2018 and I didn't see it mentioned anywhere else. I won't post the link because it's another fan site (not the one you think, a small one).

    I don't see Phillips as a 3-4 NT, in fact I see both him and Suh as 4-3 DTs ideally. Even if Suh can play DE in a 3-4 and you're right he could, you can't pay a 3-4 DE anywhere close to 20 million unless He's like Watt. You're right on Quinn though
     
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