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Gase vs Ross

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Fame, Jan 6, 2019.

  1. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    They had a chance to build on something, but again Gase refused to draft a QB or even attempt to make a good faith move for one. He boot-strapped his Dolphins coaching career to Tannehill/Cutler/Osweiler and it backfired. Shocker.
     
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  2. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    You should. The people that bash him are clueless. We got killed by injuries and were basically outmatched every game. He still got us to a 7-9 record even though our point differential was a minus 113. It's kind of like chicago. If you are a simpleton you will look at the stats and say he didn't do much there but the football pros were thoroughly impressed with what he got out of that offense which should have done far less. What killed him this year was our banged up oline which was held together with spit and duct tape and though he was able to scheme his way out of it with average teams, those teams that were top ten against the pass destroyed us and there was no scheme that was going to change that
     
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  3. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Telling everyone to only use actual quotes from Ross, then turning around and saying Ross said something for which there's NO evidence, and then insisting we simply trust the poster, requires calling out the integrity of the poster. NEVER seen that on this site before.
     
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  4. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    Well I am doing a bit of speculating about Ross and who's really in charge, though that was mostly just to pose the question for discussion.

    In terms of direct quotes, I either personally heard or directly read those quotes from Ross over the last week. I happen to be in a place at the moment, physically, that makes it very difficult for me to comb through the thousands (?) of tweets that have come out since Monday morning, but they're out there. Again, it's not a stretch to say that at the end Gase and Ross simply didn't agree with what needed to happen next year.

    Even if we just assume I was hearing voices or that I can't really read, and therefore must be lying, the point still remains: Ross fired Gase because they didn't see eye to eye about next year. The point of this discussion was about Ross guiding the franchise at his discretion. The detail about Gase is insignificant, though it is true.

    Also, I'd like to point out that most owners of companies have an area of expertise that fits with that company. Not all, but most. People who own bakeries tend to be bakers. The NFL is quite different in that most owners have very little expertise when it comes to their business. Therefore, it is an important detail to suggest that the one leading the company is the one with little expertise to do so.
     
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  5. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Gase put that O-line together. So are we supposed to approach this in some sort of bi-polar fashion?

    Still doesn't explain such abysmal rankings on offense. You'd think the Gase-Effect would be good enough for a finish within the top 20 ..... that's if you believe he's a mastermind. Of course we're talking about the same man who CLEARLY had a stable of runningbacks outside of the fossil Frank Gore, but he refused to use them.

    Gase was like Gollum in LOTR except instead of a ring it was his "previous overly-complicated passing game".
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
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  6. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think Fame is suggesting that. I do think he means;However, if Ross says he wants the team to move in a certain direction who is Grier to argue that if he wants the job. Me? I think then is the time to say no thank you to the offer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
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  7. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Just so it's clear I have absolutely no issue with what you're saying here. I suggest you focus on that and stop defending what you think Ross said until you have clear and incontrovertible evidence. Remember, you're the one who insisted on using only actual quotes from Ross.
     
  8. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Considering the mediocrity and the nonsense we've seen during the Gase tenure - how can anyone think Ross is out of line to come to that decision? All the beefing with talented alpha players, the cokehead O-line coach he hired (in fact a terrible coaching staff in general). The inability to get a long with the press without talking down to them like a petulant child. The poor optics sitting on sidelines when the offense wasn't on the field. The generally disrespectful attitude towards the man who pays his salary. The gambling of the franchise on a middling QB who tore his knee twice, with no viable backup plan.

    I mean I could go on and on, but this was not a HEAD COACH. This was not a man to steer an entire franchise. It's just not.
     
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  9. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    You're 100% right. You're wasting your time trying to explain it to him though. He's not really interested, he's just got a full-chub for me at the moment and looking to argue.
     
  10. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    No it doesn't. You can question the consistency of the approach but there is no need to accuse anyone of a lack of integrity. People are can be, and are free to be, inconsistent. This is a discussion board so others are free to call out any inconsistencies. However, the rule here is that posters should address the posts not the posters. This applies to name calling/ insulting too, as has been seen.

    If someone feels that a member is intentionally posting misleading content or is somehow being detrimental to the site there's a reporting function that should be used. Otherwise, the discussion should be addressed and accusations about, or insults towers, members avoided.

    Along with that, many times is not what one says but how one says it.
     
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  11. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Well-Known Member

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    I think I am talking about something else. I want Grier to make the decision on HC, and not have a meddling owner who may be forcing Grier to hire someone he doesn't necessarily want. If Grier is responsible for all football decisions like Ross said, then Ross needs to honor that. If Ross doesn't want to do that, then we need someone as VP of Football Operations where he will. Owners need to butt out of football related matters.
     
  12. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    What really killed him this year was he as the HC of the Miami Dolphins chose a really bad DC. He as the HC of the Dolphins couldn't get his team to perform decently on the road even though he went 6-2 at home. You can say injuries but somehow I doubt all our players were only injured for the road games. Historically bad defense and can't coach on the road. How historically bad? The 2007 Dolphins gave up 196 point in 8 road games, the 2018 Dolphins gave up 260 points in 8 road games. As a matter of fact the 2007 Dolphin offense scored 122 point in 8 road games while the 2018 Dolphin offense scored 137 points in 8 road games a mere 15 point difference.
     
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  13. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I don't agree in this case. Making up data requires special mention. It's provably false Ross said what was alleged in the press conference (and I'm not including any "interview" part afterwards), yet we're told to trust a poster that it was said. Many people were at that press conference and NO ONE reported this. Sorry.. have to call out the integrity of the poster in this case. It's fine if you disagree.
     
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  14. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    As I said, the difference is addressing the inconsistency versus the integrity. There are more possible reasons for inconsistency than a lack of integrity. Either way, the forum rule is don't attack the poster. If you think there's an issue report them. Otherwise, address the point. Attempting to accuse or question someone's character is at best fruitless for the thread.

    This is just a friendly reminder to keep it on track.

    Future and/or longer such derailments, by anyone, will get removed.
     
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  15. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    I can only access my previous posts at the moment so the rest will have to wait until tomorrow.

    It's clear there are a lot of issues. As I said, I can't physically go sort through everything to find exactly what you want at the moment because I'm sitting on a plane and the billion dollar "internet" I just paid for is hot garbage, but not only has this discussion been happening for days, I've also discussed it here with other people. I believe there were also a few discussions about exactly this issue on r/miamidolphins.

    You're welcome to believe that I have no integrity and that I'm a terrible person for some reason, which seems a bit too far considering the circumstances, but your belief is what it is and ultimately it doesn't impact my life in any way, especially because you're wrong.

    I'm not a journalist and I'm not really involved with the team, but I do a lot of business with someone who is very involved with the team ownership/management on the corporate side of things and I've been around him as well as other Dolphins staffers constantly over the last week. During that time I have heard, with my own ears, people in the organization discussing the firing of Adam Gase and at no point did I hear anything about his firing that was not directly related to the fact that Gase chose not to be involved with a rebuild.

    Perhaps Ross would have fired him anyway. Who knows?
     
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  16. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    You keep leaving out the part where Ross asked Gase to relinquish control of the roster. Which of course Gase immediately refused.

    He's not the guy you want buying the groceries, but they would have been saddled with it if they kept him on as a coach.
     
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  17. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Thank you. That's a more reasonable way of putting it.

    You might be right about why Ross fired Gase, you might be wrong. Let's just not pass stuff off as fact unless the evidence is clear.
     
  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Was it well known that he was a coke head? You keep using that as some sort proof of something...
     
  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Gase didn't choose Burke...did he?
     
  20. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, during the original press conference, when asked about why he decided to fire Adam Gase, Stephen Ross responded by saying "Adam wants to win, and win now". Perhaps my personal proximity to the team is being mixed with that statement, but to me that's enough. Why was he fired? Because he wants to win now. Translation: Gase doesn't want to wait in order to win.

    For Ross to choose those specific words to describe why he fired Gase means that they at least had that conversation, wherein Ross must have asked Adam if he wanted to stick around for a rebuild. If Ross simply wanted to fire Gase, he wouldn't have bothered to ask.

    That might not be what you're looking for, and you might need more convincing which we can work on later, but to me that is evidence, from Ross' own mouth, that he chose to fire Gase because Gase didn't want to rebuild. You keep saying we have to wait for evidence, and I'll try to dig up whatever random tweets or articles I read about it, but that is in fact evidence of what you're looking for. I'm not lying about it, I just apparently haven't given you enough. There's a difference.
     
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  21. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    Either he chose him or Burke just snuck unto the sidelines while Gase was drawing his pretty pictures or writing haikus or whatever it is he does.
     
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  22. Fame

    Fame Well-Known Member

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    Stephen Ross, in his own words at the press conference, completely refuted that fact. We know now that Ross did NOT ask Gase to cede control of the roster.
     
  23. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Has Gase interviewed anywhere where he would have control over the roster? He wouldn't with the Jets.
     
  24. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    So it's clear what set me off was the claim that Ross explicitly said "the one and only reason Gase was fired" was because he wasn't interested in rebuilding. That moved the discussion beyond interpreting what Ross said to Ross explicitly supporting your argument.

    Anyway, let's press the reset button. I'll just ignore that post of yours and assume you meant what you just described.
     
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  25. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    he didn't choose Burke. He wanted an experienced defensive coordinator. Ross didn't want to spend the extra millions it would take and told Gase to promote someone internally
     
  26. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Arizona But I don't know about the control issue.
     
  27. Surfs Up 99

    Surfs Up 99 Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure about that? It was Ross and not Tannenbaum? This is the first I have heard of that. Not happy, if that is the case!
     
  28. mooseguts

    mooseguts Well-Known Member

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    Iink?
     
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  29. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    I've asked before but never actually seen anything to substantiate. The report from Armando about wanting Kris Richards is semi-interesting, and the question is, did Richards turn him down or did Ross axe it from the financial aspect.

    Ultimately, it seems Gase is not an easy person to work with, and that as much as anything probably lead to his ouster. It was a problem with Denver management, it was a problem with players on our team and it was a problem with our management. If you're gonna pull that jazz, you better be the second coming of BB, not some two bit offensive coordinator who rode Manning to glory.
     
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  30. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

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    Honestly, I'm not sure.
     
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  31. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Gase fought hard to keep Pouncey. And if you look at his pre-draft interviews, he mentioned the line being a #1 priority several times. It's been months but his phrasing was something along the lines of "getting a core group of quality linemen working together since it's a long season and people get hurt."

    Now you could be right....maybe it was his call to only bring in 3 veterans. But I don't think so.

    Did you really bring up coke-head coaches? Nevermind that he was one of the highest regarded line coaches in the league...let's blame his habit on Gase and completely ignore the vast turnaround that line had under him in 2016. Let's also blame Gase for Tannehill hurting his knee on a rollout to the sidelines...you're really grasping for straws to create reasons to hate him.

    And that's fine- hate away. But we definitely don't agree. We can resume this conversation in 12 and 24 months though to see what Gase does elsewhere and what Miami does without him.
     
  32. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You are getting ridiculous with your excuse making for gase. Gase is the one who said we didnt need guards to run the offense. Gase is the one who refused to give up playcalling even after three seasons of offensive ineptitude and bad playcallling. Gase is the one who acted like a pre madonna and ignored or belittled everyone's opinion from numerous players to the actual owner himself. Gase is no HC material he doesnt have the personality for it. He is at best a good coordinator who can have success if you give him a HOF QB to work with.
     
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  33. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    No excuses here- I just think he's the smartest guy that's been in the building for a very long time. The owner couldn't even say "He was fired..." and his reason for parting ways was "He wants to win now." Add it all up and it doesn't fit the narrative that some are trying to spin here.

    As far as belittling players opinions, are you really still defending Landry and/or Ajayi? Now who's making excuses...

    Stories like this doesn't help that narrative either- https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article223482025.html
     
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  34. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Anti-Homer

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    Smartest guy how though? Where was that moment that left us all sitting there thinking he's playing 4D chess?
     
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  35. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Gase is a great football mind. I don't think he can coach, however.
     
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  36. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I think any concept of "intelligence" for head coaches has to include the ability to adapt the game plan to the players the coach has to work with, and that's something Gase has not shown the ability to do. It doesn't really matter if an idea works on paper if that idea requires a talent like Peyton Manning to execute.
     
  37. danmarino

    danmarino Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's why I said he's not a good coach. I'm certain that his ideas are spot on, but his inability to adjust his ideas to his players and relay them to his personnel in a manner in which they can understand them makes him a bad coach.
     
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  38. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Maybe we're splitting hairs, but I wouldn't consider the idea a good idea unless it can be executed by the players the coach has. That's also independent of whether he can teach those ideas to the players. We can agree he isn't good at teaching, but I wouldn't even say he has great ideas because we've seen his play calling and that just doesn't work well with the talent we have.
     
  39. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    As I said, we won seven games this year with mainly our 2nd string offense ....which was better than about half the league. It sucks key people went down for the season and it's very easy to say, "We should have been a playoff team", but the reality was that we just weren't that good of a team with what was left.

    You asked for specifics though- specifically, the Miracle in Miami. Showcasing Wilson and Drake as outside receivers (they've always been slot..and many of you called Jakeem a bust). Winning a game with 100% of his offensive line out, his top receiver, and relying on Osweiler's noodle arm. We sucked yet we just kept finding ways to win. All that impresses me.

    As I said earlier, we probably shouldn't have won a game after week 3 (when we were ironically 3-0). But this team just kept fighting under Gase and shocking people. To me, that's not a guy you fire. And for the record, I was critical of Gase often this season....the runs on 3rd and 10, no deep passes down the stretch, etc. Overall though, I think he's worlds better than Sparano or Philbin and I seriously doubt we lure in a better candidate. I personally would not have let Gase walk since it was pretty clear that everyone in the front office (Ross included) wanted him there.

    Again, that's my opinion......feel free to take it or leave it.

    And PS- for those of you that said I'm delusional, I've written detailed team reviews here for many years now. Go back and take a look at my delusional insights- I was right a heck of a lot more than any Miami beat writer. For instance, in 2016 I called for Ajayi to be benched in week 1. I said we were about to win 6 straight games and gave the reasoning why. On Tannehill...read my reviews from 2014 when I said exactly what everyone is now preaching today. I'll gladly compare predictions with anyone.
     
  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Let's be precise....with the 2nd string talent. It's not a coincidence that as linemen and receivers got hurt, the offense became less exciting and we won less ballgames. We started 3-0 with the complete first string offense and remained above .500 until Wilson, Tannehill and Grant were all down (along with 3-5 starting linemen).

    Some here say that's making excuses, but I consider it logical fact. There's a point of no return on injuries for any team and I think we crossed that threshold on offense by week 8. I would have loved continued miracles as much as anyone (like the NE game) but let's be honest....did anyone here actually expect it? It simply wasn't realistic.
     
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