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Game planning against NE

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Here are some snippets from an article about Dion Jordan's performance in a game earlier this year- who wrote it?

    "Of the 17 snaps Jordan took, he dropped back to cover on four of them. Of the remaining 13 pass-rush snaps, I counted him pressuring the quarterback twice."

    "Jordan lined up on the inside of the offensive line formation on four of the above snaps. On three of those snaps, he dropped back into coverage. The fourth time lining up from the inside position with his hand off the ground, he spied on the quarterback." He also dropped back into coverage one time from a down position as a right defensive end.

    "The team also put all three starting linebackers—Dannell Ellerbe, Philip Wheeler and Koa Misi—on the field. It rotated dropping Misi or Jordan back into coverage while Wake and Vernon rushed, and at times linebackers Wheeler and Ellerbe would also blitz."

    "One should note that the above play was the only instance from which Dion Jordan dropped back into a coverage while the Dolphins were in one of their special personnel packages. The other three times he dropped back into coverage, the Dolphins had four defensive linemen on the field, including two defensive tackles."

    "With both Dion Jordan and linebacker Phil Wheeler pulled out into zone coverage to the left side of the offensive formation, the danger of a flatfooted quarterback such as Brandon Weeden recognizing the unbalanced rush and scrambling for yardage was minimal."

    "While this particular instance did not necessarily take full advantage of Dion Jordan’s rare agility and overall skill set" - I say let's make full use of that skill set.

    Sounds to me like Jordan has gotten some pretty good experience in pass coverage this year. As to Gronk, Jordan's experience in pass pro is in zone from what I've seen, I would expect the same if he were to cover Gronk, covering him in a short zone and releasing when Gronk goes deeper down the field, picked up by a DB, same sort of thing that the college tape shows.
     
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  2. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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  3. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    I agree with Grimes and Kenbrell Thompkins as well. Thats a good idea.

    I dont know about Reshad Jones picking up Gronk 5 yards after the initial jam. i would say allow Reshad just play him man and get in his face 5 yards in. He's extremely strong and can handle it I think. I do not advise Jones just picking him up for a major reason in that he has extremely weak hips.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/09000d5d816dce91/2010-Combine-workout-Reshad-Jones

    Watch his transition from backpedal to full stride. He gives up 1-2 seconds there and imagine if Reshad had to pick that up after 5 yards. He would be eaten alive.
     
  4. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    I agree. I think he has great instincts in space but in the regard of dropping in coverage/zone where he can use his length and athleticism to disrupt passing lanes, jump all over the underneath stuff or anything in his zone, and pursue to the flats, not try to stick on TEs & slot receivers in man coverage.
     
  5. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    a. half of this is what Chris and others have already described wanting to do- blitzing or bringing unbalanced pressure and occasionally dropping Jordan in coverage to confuse Brady and hopefully force a mistake, so I don't think you're making the point you think you're making b/c these snippets show nothing that supports trying to blanket Gronk with Jordan.

    b. As to the bolded part, that seems like a waste of a pass rusher to drop him in zone all game when there's a safety bracketing Gronk over the top, and that's if Gronk is even in Jordan's zone. If he's not then you've got Jordan on a good experienced NFL slot receiver who, paired with Brady, would murder Jordan with option routes, especially with one less pass rusher pressuring Brady. Dropping Jordan has to be an element of surprise b/c if Brady is expecting it and can make pre-snap adjustments, he'll tear Jordan apart in coverage.
     
  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Lets see where reshads ceiling is, I think we all understand that's what's most probable and makes the most sense and, I'm sure some of this debate comes down to not pigeonholing Dion Jordan's game into just a pass rusher..I think if folks are fine with him just doing that, then maybe their undestimating what his movement and skill can accomplish,This isn't just about having him do everything, it's about thinking that he can do other things beside pass rushing at a higher level that anyone else has at that size, and if we don't focus on everything from the beginning of his development, those other skills would atrophy..

    Give reshad a chance, see what happens, if Gronk is punking him, then give the reins to DJ, Gronk is gonna over power anyone else and Brady is not afraid to thro anywhere near his wheelhouse, so you at least better have someone that can match up physically..
     
  7. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    I for one don't oppose developing his other skills. I just don't think sticking him on Gronkowski is the best way to start. I would like to drop him into coverage occasionally to confuse QBs and allow others to blitz, but I wouldn't spend a #3 overall pick on a guy to become the minimizer of tight ends. What I would spend a #3 pick on is an elite pass rusher who spends the majority of his time rushing the passer b/c that's where the greatest impact is at. First and foremost I'd want the majority of his early development focused on maximizing his pass rush ability as quickly as possible, and secondarily I'd want him working on run defense so that he's not a liability there so he can become a reliable 3 down player who doesn't have to come off the field. Developing his coverage ability pulls up the rear b/c it's the least vital early on, and the more sound he becomes as a pass rusher and run stopper the more time can be spent working on coverage. IMO if you focus on everything from the beginning then you're temporarily making him a jack of all trades, master of none type guy which slows his development as a pass rusher.

    I don't think this about pigeonholing Jordan as just a pass rusher per se, and I say that b/c pass rushers are arguably the second most important position behind QB. If Jordan can excel in that area then that's what you want him doing. I think it's counterproductive to stick him in coverage unless it's b/c he's randomly dropping to confuse a QB or to fill the void of blitzing defender. If Miami has plans to build Jordan into an ominous 265+ pound DE, then coverage eventually won't be his forte. By the nature of the position he'll be either stopping the run or rushing the passer in base defense b/c you're not gonna drop him into coverage on 1st & 10 or potential run situations. Because Jordan is a pass rusher first and foremost, that's what he'll being doing most in passing situations, and occasionally he'll drop to mix things up. Von Miller is faster, quicker, equally athletic, has better 3-cone and shuttle times, and spent even more time in coverage in college, but you won't see all that ability being spent in coverage or being heavily diversified. Essentially he performs his role in base defense and rushes the passer in nickel, and that's what Jordan will be doing. Only difference is Miller is at SAM and Jordan is at RE. If Miami moves Jordan to Misi's role he'll see more coverage snaps in base defense b/c the RE will be the one rushing the passer, but in nickel he'll be back on the edge chasing quarterbacks. IMO if you operate a 4-3 and want an athletic defender between the hashes who can minimize TEs, slot WRs, and RBs out of the backfield, you don't use a promising pass rusher to do it with; you draft a dynamic 3 down linebacker who excels in coverage.
     
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  8. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    Knock the **** out of Tom Brady and win. Don't and lose. For me it's that simple.

    I'd blitz him every ****ing down, even take a few roughing the passer penalties.
     
  9. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Yeah, and then there would be a flood of folks complaining about how we lost by 30, declaring the season a failure and demanding that Ireland be fired :lol:.


    Nooooo thank you..
     
  10. Califin

    Califin Well-Known Member

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    Hard to imagine a Belichick defensive line suseptible to the run, much less the run behind OUR line.

    Kinda like Jordan covering Gronk, and yet given our history thus far, I can see Jordan in man coverage.
     
  11. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    a. Not sure who in this thread is talking about Jordan trying to "blanket" Gronk. The point of including the quotes is simply to show that Jordan is getting a decent amount of experience in pass coverage at the NFL level, so thanks but no thanks in terms of a recap of what that article was about. Btw a good part of the article was about Jordan acting as a spy against mobile QBs, I'm surprised that you didn't feel the need to regurgitate that as well.

    Jordan has been given these additional responsibilities as mentioned in the article because of his athleticism, ability to function in space and his college experience dropping into coverage. So what I would like to see is Jordan use that experience, athletic ability and 6-6 height to match up in coverage against Gronk- to use what the article referred to as Jordan's "rare agility and overall skill set".

    b. I also don't see anyone on this thread talking about Jordan chasing Gronk far down the field on a post or some other deep pattern. Again, every bit of film that I've seen of Jordan in coverage at Oregon is of him in a short zone, not man.

    If you feel that Gronk will "murder Jordan with option routes" and Brady will "tear Jordan apart in coverage"- well, that's your opinion. I'm fine with Jordan getting help over the top and if that's not your preference- you're entitled to your opinion. I really have no idea, if you have watched the film of Jordan in coverage at Oregon, why you would expect Jordan to be asked to "blanket" Gronk when in coverage and not get deep help from a DB- if I missed film of Jordan covering deep I'd like to see it. But to see Jordan cover an athletic and accomplished TE like Gronk in his usual short zone- I'd look forward to that, it's time to see a little more of what this rare athlete can do.
     
  12. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Jaworski was just on Mike & Mike. He said that he thinks Brady's main problems this season have not been the receivers, but the O line. Man that is music to my ears. Love to see Soliai bull rush up the middle. I'm excited. We can win this.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Huh. Interesting.

    I don't think it's feasible schematically to put Reshad Jones in a jamming position when Gronk is lined up attached to the line. And most of the time, not even when he's in the slot. When Gronk is out on the perimeter, that's a different story.

    The question then would be, who is qualified to pick up Gronk in man coverage after the 5 yard zone? If not the safety we just paid like $30 million in the off season, who do we have? And might the physical jamming by defensive ends and linebackers in the first 5 yards give Jones enough advantage to make up for his stiff hips?
     
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Fully agree with everything here.
     
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  15. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Hit Brady until he is decapitated.
     
  16. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    Interesting note- Without Wilfork, Kelly and Mayo, the Patriots gave up 146 yards rushing between the tackles last week. Lamar Miller has a 5.6 average between the tackles this season. Just sayin'.
     
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  17. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Great article.

    1) By the way, small typo: "pass snaps pn which Brady" Didn't bug me, but in case you care.

    2) It's been noted that Tannehill throws better or more to his left than his right. This was raised as a possible concern, so I am glad to read that Brady does this too and has managed an okay career:


    3) Reading about where the Pats pass defense is weak, and where we could attack, my immediate thought was "If I were the Pats DC I'd take away the hashmarks and middle and challenge Tannehill to connect deep left and deep right. He doesn't have the Oline protection or time to do it, and has been spotty on those deep connections to boot." I'd risk the big bomb play and gamble on my pass rush pressure, and how hard it is to accurately his a deep bomb. If all we gave up was one deep bomb for a TD, but strangled the offense the rest of the game, and maybe got an INT underneath in those tight windows, I'd be fine and the Pats would win. Of course, I'm hoping the Pats LOSE and that they do NOT do this.


    Great writeup. One of your best. Too bad the Pats probably win this one. Pray for an upset.
     
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  18. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    Yeah its just difficult to have someone press Gronk and then release it into a man coverage. It puts the DB at a huge disadvantage. I think Jones had that crazy interception when he lined up against Hernandez last year on the perimeter. I would put Jones on Gronk anytime he lines outside.

    I wonder if Coyle is going to try and use Jenkins on Gronk. I dont think thats a good idea but Jenkins does have the range to cover him.
     
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  19. PHINANALYST

    PHINANALYST Well-Known Member

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    1- regardless of success rate, pressure must be felt by Brady

    2- stop the run

    3- control/limit Gronk

    we do those things and we 'should' find ourselves in a position to win the game ....
     
  20. unifiedtheory

    unifiedtheory Sub Pending Luxury Box

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    I'd rather lose by attempting to kick the crap out of Brady than sitting back and watching him pick us to shreds.
     
  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree, if we can't matchup man to man with this group and bring the heat then there are two rookies that need to be playing 2nd and third corner immediately...
     
  22. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    Starks and Soliai are run stuffers. Can they get pressure up the middle on their own or do they need LB help in a blitz package?
     
  23. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We'll I would say both Ellerbe and wheeler look better going forward rather than backwards or laterally so bring'em..i don't believe this is the game where you drop in zone or playoff..somebody on this defense needs to set some tone.
     

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