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Game planning against NE

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    What's he going to do 200 yards?
     
  2. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Since our lack of pass protection is evident, we will be running more "big formations" wich won't allow a blocking liability like Egnew to see a lot of snaps.

    We will NEED to run the ball effectively.
     
  3. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Matthews needs more snaps, period. Screens, shallow crossers, easy throws that allow him to RAC.

    I'd like to see more TEs out there, all 3 of em if possible. Spread it out with 5 wide on one play then come back with a heavy formation on the next. Force their LBs to play in space and pound the ball if they go nickel.
     
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  4. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Egnew has improved as a blocker, he was lead blocking as a FB quite a bit last week.
     
  5. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    The way I look at it is if you have a lack of quality LBs you want more of your DL on the field at the same time. Having Koa Misi's on the field doesn't do much for you. If it has to be Koa Misi and Phillip Wheeler inside on the field so be it.
     
  6. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    100%.

    Let Misi or Wheeler handle the jam duties and then pass Gronk off to a safety, allow Jordan to focus on getting to the QB. Anything less would be uncivilized.
     
  7. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    If that's the case then you're failing to understand a simple point- why not have a great athlete with great size and experience defending receivers in the slot cover a very large and athletic TE who otherwise is most likely going to rip us one or more new a-holes on Sunday?

    The point of the clips is showing Jordan operating in space and his movement skills- he had rather unusual coverage responsibilities in college for a DE The point as per Gronk is simple- have a cat quick, fast and tall (6-6) Jordan, who lined up covering slot receivers in college, cover the 6-6 Gronk and see how he does. If he picks him up in a short zone as he did in the Washington St. clips and releases him, that's fine. The point is really to see if he's good enough in space and coverage to get it done- I think he can, and fwiw the other DE/OLB from the 2013 draft who really stood out to me as far as moving in space was Sean Porter.

    I watched Jason Taylor his whole career and there is no comparison between JT and Jordan when it comes to operating in space. Gronk will most likely chew up and spit out Ellerbe or whatever LB we put on him, so why not give Jordan a shot, see what happens? Jordan will no doubt get his reps in as a pass rusher, I'd like to see if he can also help to neutralize the Pats best and biggest weapon who I think, otherwise, is going to have a monster game.

    The bottom line is that I'd like to see what the kid can do in pass pro against Gronk- my guess is that he can do a good job of it, or at least better than the rest of our LBs who will most likely get slaughtered by Gronk on Sunday. I don't think that we have much to lose by at least giving the kid a shot, no other LB on the roster is even close in terms of size and athletic skills as they relate to covering Gronk.
     
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  8. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Having Jordan rush the passer for the entire game is far more important than giving up 30 or 40 less yards (at best) to Gronkowski versus having say Reshad Jones cover him. I would put Misi in at ted linebacker in a pseudo 3-4 with Wheeler at the WLB. Get your best personnel on the field.
     
  9. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    You don't beat the Pats by stopping Gronk. You beat them by getting to Brady. Jordan should be rushing him most of the time.

    Sent from my Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk
     
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  10. finwin

    finwin Active Member

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    We have to have success running or passing on first down. That's been the diff between the first 3 games and last 3.
     
  11. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    This whole fear the TE thing is hilarious. They're no worse than another WR on the field, the obsession with finding a way to contain TEs takes away from what's most important which is totally stopping the run so that you can devour the QB in the passing game. You can have your matchup advantage at TE all day, I couldn't care less as long as one of my premier rushers is facing your HB.

    I'll take Reshad Jones on a TE over some scrub of a RB against a full sized pass rusher.
     
  12. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    There's nothing wrong with using a little deception and disguise- have Jordan line up opposite Gronk, usually rush Brady, sometimes pick up Gronk in coverage. Mix it up.

    As to Misi, I've always liked the idea of him at MLB- very good athlete with size, just not terribly explosive at OLB.
     
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  13. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Imo it's more important now than in years gone by to stop Gronk, because who is left? Julian Edelman? Edelman isn't bad, but Welker is gone and the Pats offensive weapons are sub par this year. Dobson and Thompkins aren't scaring many teams. Gronk is even more so the big wheel now as a weapon for Brady, and my guess is that he's going to absolutely go off on us Sunday, 2TDS and over 100 yards receiving my best guess. I'd just like to see what Jordan could do to stem that tide.
     
  14. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    If wake is truly out, then rush Jordan. As far as not being able to see why you would use Jordan in coverage...Child, please!

    You're just being defensive and stubborn. We shouldn't have to explain why it's a good idea. It's getting pretty condescendiing on this topic...
     
  15. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    How many games have they won with Gronk this year?

    Sent from my Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk
     
  16. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I think that Wake is good to go, as per NFL injury report:

    http://www.nfl.com/injuries
     
  17. MikeHoncho

    MikeHoncho -=| Censored |=- Club Member

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    Gotta hope for the best
     
  18. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    The good thing about Misi is that if you have him on the inside of the 3-4 you've got someone that can take on a linemen or a FB with abandon. I think you could get away with him sitting in a zone and you can bring him on a blitz up in the inside. Then you bring in Jenkins in the nickel with Ellerbe moving over. Wake being in there makes it even more interesting because now you have the option of really bringing hell with a 5-2.. You're guaranteeing a matchup between a HB/TE with either Wake or Jordan.
     
  19. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    That sounds eerily similar to the line of logic that when we were 3-0 our offensive line must have been ok because we were 3-0. Brady is frustrated this year for a reason, his weapons are subpar this year as compared to previous years. At least now he has Gronk back, a true weapon for the Pats. He had a good game last week and my guess is that he'll have an even better one this Sunday.
     
  20. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    We led the league in sacks given up even at 3-0. If you're getting to Brady he won't have time to find Gronk.

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  21. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    The question you have to ask is, what's the best alignment for this group down the line? It's a puzzle fitting together the eventual picture of the DL.

    Something like:

    ROLB/super-wide RE- Dion Jordan
    RE- Derrick Shelby
    RDT- Paul Soliai
    LDT- Randy Starks
    LE- Cameron Wake
    LILB- Koa Misi
    RILB- Wheeler
     
  22. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    I'll tell you why this is bugging me so much. It's not so much that it's such an elephant in the room that nobody is aware of; it's that my intuitive faculties are telling me that secretly these guys want their JT 2.0 so much, that they're afraid of letting him be versatile and losing time on his pass rush progress. That, mixed with a 3 dimensional, Beta consciousness, save your face or be kicked out of the club mentality that is really amateurish and infuriating to me.

    Taylor never ran a 4.6

    Taylor eventually moved to OLB and covered people

    Taylor freelanced and showed this "unfathomable" versatility when Saban finally realized how to use him and he won defensive MVP

    Same logic in play when putting Sean Smith on bigger, taller receivers. It's simply not a stretch to think a bigger, athletic guy has a better shot.

    This regime is being overly protective of their new star, except when they put him on Special Teams. Sound eerily similar? Like using Long an extra quarter in Pre-season

    Everything is so cautious and fear-based...

    I spit on you're ancestor's haircuts!
     
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  23. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    Unfortunatley, that's an unlikely scenario that rarely pans out. The point is to have Jordan do both, rush Brady and cover Gronk sometimes, make use of that tremendous skill set. Getting to Brady consistently as a means of shutting down Gronk is a bit unrealistic imo. How nice it would be to have Bill Arnsparger coaching the defense again, maybe Gary Stevens on offense. We could use more wrinkles these days on both sides of the ball.
     
  24. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    I wouldn't mind having Jordan drop in coverage during LB/S/CB blitzes but I wouldn't want to put him man up against one of the most dominant tight ends in NFL history if Dion hasn't been spending practice time working on his coverage skills and developing his understanding of coverage duties at this level. If this were unorganized sandlot football I'd say it's a great idea, but to take a rusty athlete who is generally inexperienced in man coverage, isn't accustomed to the speed of the NFL game from a coverage aspect, and pit him against Gronkowski, his head would be spinning IMO.

    Gronk had to put in a year in the NFL to reach the elite level he's currently at, and he's been a tight end all along dating back to college, so I don't see how Dion Jordan could be expected to jump right in and effectively cover Gronk despite spending little to no time this year working on his NFL coverage skills. Maybe if Dion were being played at OLB where greater attention is placed on developing his coverage ability, then by year two I could see him being prepared for occasionally going man up on Gronk with effective results.
     
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  25. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Where's Vernon?
     
  26. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Rotating in for Wake and Dion Jordan.

    You could also move Randy Starks to RDT, Odrick to LDT.
     
  27. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    So you think Shelby is better than Vernon? I don't agree at all. Vernon has been playing very good football since struggling in the first 2 games.
     
  28. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Their roles are different. Vernon would have to stand up a tackle, which is what he struggled with earlier in the year. If you can scheme around that and have Vernon, Wake, and Jordan all wide than that's a different story.

    Where's Disgustipate when ya need him?
     
  29. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Personally I think these players are all good enough to be playing, which is a great problem to have. And most of them are versatile enough to be moved around and given different assignments.
     
  30. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    Trick is how do you get all of them on the field? One idea would be to pinch the two DTs to the A-gaps, lineup Misi and Vernon in the two B-Gaps, Wake/Jordan (switch between strong-side D and weak-side C, depending on the way the offense lines up), with Ellerbe filling the strong-side C.

    The A-gap pinch would likely occupy all three interior linemen on every play, with Vernon likely hitting a FB or a RB on every play (he's essentially coming from a three technique stance against an overwhelmed LG). You'd then have Jordan and Wake clean up when the QB has to run to the edges.

    Essentially you've got Starks, Odrick, Wake, Jordan, and Vernon coming on every play.
     
  31. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Sorry byroan, fire ants talkin'
     
  32. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    Try staying on topic.

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  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    They put way more than that on him if you watch the tape.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Are we really to the point now where we just assume that size/athleticism is the lone determinant of skill, as if the last half-century of football didn't happen? There are few men in the NFL faster than Demarcus Van Dyke. I'm not about to trust him covering Calvin Johnson.
     
  35. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    Dion Jordan looked awful in coverage and backpedaling against Wash State. I would not put him on Gronk other than putting a hand on him but I'm not even sure he's thick or strong enough. Misi might do a decent job at putting hands on Gronk. Strong handed and has a very good core. Maybe Vernon too.

    I would think about lining up Brent Grimes on Gronk. No one else on that team is worth putting Grimes other than Gronk.
     
  36. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    yeah it'd be like putting the abysmal 2008 rookie version of Duane Brown against Bruce Smith in his prime. Brown's tremendous underlying ability allowed him to blossomed into an elite LT but the inexperienced rookie version of himself would get used and abused by Bruce Smith.
     
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I hear you with Grimes on Gronk but I think Gronk is big and physical enough that I'd rather have a safety do it. Reshad Jones did this last year against tight ends. He's not been asked to do it quite the same way this year and has often been placed in positions on the field where his job became harder. You paid the man a lot of money. I say GET HANDS on Gronkowski off the line and within the 5 yard zone, and then let Reshad Jones cover him in man.

    I actually think that it would be beneficial to get Brent Grimes on Kenbrell Thompkins. Thompkins has weak hands and he can be frustrated and shut down by physical coverage. However, when he IS on, the entire New England offense lights up. He had big games against Tampa, Atlanta and New Orleans, and sh-tty games against Buffalo and both Jets games. I'd rather keep a boot on his throat than take a chance on such a size/physicality mismatch between Gronk and Grimes.
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And that's assuming Dion Jordan is going to blossom into some fantastic cover man. Which isn't ever going to happen. It's a sidecar to his game, nothing more. Something you can do every now and then that will confuse the defense and provide opportunities for other players. He's never even going to approach the effectiveness of your average nickel linebacker in coverage. He has never shown that ability or been asked to. His coverage responsibilities at Oregon were extraordinarily simple. He is AT BEST a Jarret Johnson in coverage. All Jarret Johnson ever did was get his hands on tight ends at the line of scrimmage and physically erase them, not let them off the line. Never ran with anyone.
     
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  39. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    Grimes is a stud but the size disadvantage against Gronk concerns me. Jones sounds like the best bet to me and if Amendola plays I'd like to see Grimes shadow him.
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin RIP Phinsational Luxury Box Club Member

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    I agree. I'd rather double or bracket Gronk and put Grimes on Thompkins or Edelman. Maybe double him at the LOS and especially in the redzone like defenses have done to Tony Gonzalez lately. Don't even let him make it to 5 yards, just physically stuff the sh** out of him early and hope it wears him down.

    [​IMG]
     
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