Game of Thrones - Season 6

"Deerless Dice wrote:

I'm guessing Tyrion made a deal with Cersei to bring her back to the table. Otherwise i don't understand why he's creeping. Cersei was great this episode, she played Tyrion like a fiddle using his guilt over the deaths of Myrcella and Tommen.

What possible deal though?

To put this new kid on the throne when Dany dies?

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

That is what her character interesting. She is very bad at it and thinks she is amazing.

How is she bad at it?

Her scheming erased many of her enemies and put her on the throne. People that you guys say bailed her out, actually got in her way or usurped her.

"Fin D wrote:

How is she bad at it?

Her scheming erased many of her enemies and put her on the throne. People that you guys say bailed her out, actually got in her way or usurped her.

She basically fucked up everything until Tyrion, then Tywin fixed it for her. When they were removed, she again fucked things up until the Uncle (fuck I can't think of his name) stepped in and fixed it. She basically bankrupted the shit out of the crown and created enemies left and right. In the book, it was heavily implied her allowing the Sparrows to reform was a time bomb. The show all of a sudden, at the end of last season, allowed to her erase all that and suddenly seem like a super genius. It was a complete 180.

"texanphinatic wrote:

She basically ****ed up everything until Tyrion, then Tywin fixed it for her. When they were removed, she again ****ed things up until the Uncle (**** I can't think of his name) stepped in and fixed it. She basically bankrupted the **** out of the crown and created enemies left and right. In the book, it was heavily implied her allowing the Sparrows to reform was a time bomb. The show all of a sudden, at the end of last season, allowed to her erase all that and suddenly seem like a super genius. It was a complete 180.

I guess I have to question what criteria you guys are using to judge how a good player a given character is.

If Cersei is terrible at playing the game, then Tywinn, Tyrion, the Tyrells, the Baratheons, the Sparrows, are worse.

"Fin D wrote:

I guess I have to question what criteria you guys are using to judge how a good player a given character is.

If Cersei is terrible at playing the game, then Tywinn, Tyrion, the Tyrells, the Baratheons, the Sparrows, are worse.

It's about far more than just not being dead though. Cersei has basically rolled a non stop set of natural 20's for awhile now. Her thing was always that she thought she was the best, but it was almost entirely luck or others. The whole Red Wedding for instance was Tywin. It was Tyrion's plans that saved them in King's Landing. Cersei is the one that basically started the war, bankrupted their family, gave the sparrows their power (in the books, they are not dead), allowed the Tyrells to entrench themselves as the people's champions, etc.

For instance, in the show as is now ... why are the people not in open rebellion after she killed the High Septon and Queen Margary whom they both loved? Plot armor and blind luck. She is just a vicious and cruel woman who keeps lucking out due to plot convenience and being played by an actress they don't want to let go of.

"Fin D wrote:

I guess I have to question what criteria you guys are using to judge how a good player a given character is.

If Cersei is terrible at playing the game, then Tywinn, Tyrion, the Tyrells, the Baratheons, the Sparrows, are worse.

I am talking about the books.

"texanphinatic wrote:

She basically ****ed up everything until Tyrion, then Tywin fixed it for her. When they were removed, she again ****ed things up until the Uncle (**** I can't think of his name) stepped in and fixed it. She basically bankrupted the **** out of the crown and created enemies left and right. In the book, it was heavily implied her allowing the Sparrows to reform was a time bomb. The show all of a sudden, at the end of last season, allowed to her erase all that and suddenly seem like a super genius. It was a complete 180.

Yes and no... The debt the crown owes isn't on her though. That was Robert spending like a mad man. Ned even commented that the mad king left the treasury flowing w/gold and Robert beggared the realm.

The thing about Cersei though, She had to work around people in power and that was more or less her biggest problem. Her schemes to remove them is what got her in trouble. Whether it was Tyrion, Joffery, Tommen, Margery, etc... Using your example, she only allowed the sparrows to arm themselves again because 1. They agreed to take that as payment for the debt the crown owed. 2). She could use them in a scheme to remove Margery from the equation. Short sighted and mistaken? Absolutely. Bad move. But that move wouldn't have been necessary if she wasn't trying to work around Margery. Now that she's the ultimate authority, she can play the game with freedom and so far, she's the one making the better moves. Her biggest flaw is still apparent though, her personality. She's still petty, spiteful, and overly emotional. And she's becoming paranoid as hell. All season, she's been talking about betrayal in one form or another. Finally, she accuses Jaime of treason, promoting their enemies interest when he met with Tyrion. He had no idea about that meeting until it took place and he told her right away... Yet, she throws it in his face that he conspired against her. That's going to be her downfall, pushing away real allies for sell swords.

As for Tyrion... I read a theory that makes sense. Right before speaking to Cersei, Tyrion tells Jon that he should of lied to manipulate the situation for the benefit of Westeros because they're all fucked if they don't unite. All season, Dany has been ignoring Tyrion. And rightfully so... (He went from smartest character on the show to always being wrong. Most of the "smart" characters have turned into idiots and/or useless w/o Martin's source material (Tyrion, Littlefinger, Vary's, etc...). Because Dany has been ignoring his advice, he may feel like he has to work around her (kinda like Cersei). When Tyrion figures out Cersei is "pregnant," they're in the middle of a conversation about Tyrion not wanting to destroy his family... Which dany has accused him of that all season, which WAS random at the time, there was no justification for it then. Now? There may be something to it...

Tyrion might have made a deal w/Cersei behind Dany's back. While he has seemingly believed in Dany and her crusade to break the wheel, he has been shown to doubt some her decisions, like killing the Tarly's. And his conversation with Vary's supports the idea that perhaps his faith in her is weakening. He even tells Cersei that despite Dany's impulsive attitude, she chose a hand to check her worst impulses. Basically, he believes in himself more than Dany? I'm not sure what kind of arrangement he could of made w/Cersei. It does seem strange that he would completely turn his back on Dany, especially for Cersei. He knows she's mentally unstable, spiteful, hateful, and wants him dead... Always has. So I don't think he's switching sides. It doesn't make sense. But if that final short is an indication of guilt, he must of sold someone out pretty bad. Perhaps Jon... Somehow the deal was to remove him from the equation, which is what Cersei wanted in the first place before Jon shot her down. Only, he's not getting Cersei's army and may have weakened Dany's position in the process.

I just hope we don't get a, "Tyrion is in love w/Dany" story. I would fucking hate it w/a passion.

"texanphinatic wrote:

It's about far more than just not being dead though. Cersei has basically rolled a non stop set of natural 20's for awhile now. Her thing was always that she thought she was the best, but it was almost entirely luck or others. The whole Red Wedding for instance was Tywin. It was Tyrion's plans that saved them in King's Landing. Cersei is the one that basically started the war, bankrupted their family, gave the sparrows their power (in the books, they are not dead), allowed the Tyrells to entrench themselves as the people's champions, etc.

For instance, in the show as is now ... why are the people not in open rebellion after she killed the High Septon and Queen Margary whom they both loved? Plot armor and blind luck. She is just a vicious and cruel woman who keeps lucking out due to plot convenience and being played by an actress they don't want to let go of.

I'm not just talking about being alive or dead. I am talking about playing the game to get what they want. If you took the criteria you're applying to Cersei and applied it to Tyrion, he too would be terrible. He is considered one of the smartest people on the show and political move after political move has backfired in his face.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

I am talking about the books.

Totally fair, I am not, I'm talking just about the show.

Without a doubt Show Cersei is more effective than Book Cersei. But that also may be because we haven't gotten to the point in the books where she starts winning.

"Deerless Dice wrote:

Without a doubt Show Cersei is more effective than Book Cersei. But that also may be because we haven't gotten to the point in the books where she starts winning.

That definitely seems to be where in the show she veered into actually being somewhat good at the game. I don't think she will in the books at all. And logically it doesn't make much sense either. You're either good at it like Tyrion and Tywin, or you're not, like Robert Baratheon and Cersei. Shortsighted, vindictive and envious. Even now in the end, I would argue that she has still largely rode the coattails of others and lucked into much of her good fortune. She is essentially an adult version of Joffrey now. It's just kind of annoying, as amazing as Lena is.

"texanphinatic wrote:

That definitely seems to be where in the show she veered into actually being somewhat good at the game. I don't think she will in the books at all. And logically it doesn't make much sense either. You're either good at it like Tyrion and Tywin, or you're not, like Robert Baratheon and Cersei. Shortsighted, vindictive and envious. Even now in the end, I would argue that she has still largely rode the coattails of others and lucked into much of her good fortune. She is essentially an adult version of Joffrey now. It's just kind of annoying, as amazing as Lena is.

Maybe in the books...but not in the show. In the show she is every bit as capable of the game as heavy hitters like Littlefinger, Tyrion, Tywinn, etc.

"Fin D wrote:

Maybe in the books...but not in the show. In the show she is every bit as capable of the game as heavy hitters like Littlefinger, Tyrion, Tywinn, etc.

If memory serves me right, where she is in the books is the shame sequence.

The show is almost a different character. Plus Tyrion is much more capable in the books. Tywinn is a bad ass in all forms.

"Deerless Dice wrote:

I'm guessing Tyrion made a deal with Cersei to bring her back to the table. Otherwise i don't understand why he's creeping. Cersei was great this episode, she played Tyrion like a fiddle using his guilt over the deaths of Myrcella and Tommen.

I expect Dany and Jon are going to find out pretty sharp that Cersie has double-crossed them, either by Jaime showing up or the Lannister armies not showing up, so unless Tyrion has a time limit on any deal he made with her, he'll quickly change his mind about following through with it, if they did make a deal. Of course, if the theory is right, they might play it out that he gets caught or goes through with it just before they find out.

"Claymore95 wrote:

I expect Dany and Jon are going to find out pretty sharp that Cersie has double-crossed them, either by Jaime showing up or the Lannister armies not showing up, so unless Tyrion has a time limit on any deal he made with her, he'll quickly change his mind about following through with it, if they did make a deal. Of course, if the theory is right, they might play it out that he gets caught or goes through with it just before they find out.

Theon is going to find out and warn Jon, because he's going after Euron.

"ToddPhin wrote:

IDK. Does the Night King have his own soothsayer? There's a very strange confidence about him, and he already knew how to defeat a dragon. There's probably a 1% chance of this happening but what if he staged that entire event, specifically to boltster his army with a dragon while simultaneously depleting his enemy of one? Dany's reaction to her white-walking child will be interesting.

I believe the Night King has greenseeing abilities.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

"Stringer Bell wrote:

I believe the Night King has greenseeing abilities.

At this point, that's my theory. It's the only one that makes sense. Why wait so long to return between long nights? He was defeated previously by Azor and needed a new game plan. He was waiting for a Wight Dragon. A weapon of mass destruction. He started to assemble his new army right before Dany brought Dragon's back into the world, so it seems to fit that he foresaw their arrival. And it doesn't appear as though he had another plan to get past the wall, as if he knew the Dragons were coming. Lastly, during Bran's time travel visit, the Night King was able to touch him. The only other character to interact and touch Bran during those time travel visits was the former Three Eyed Raven, who had greensight. We've also seen him break Bran's warging ability. Clearly, he's got some voodoo of one kind or another.

"Dol-Fan Dupree wrote:

If memory serves me right, where she is in the books is the shame sequence.

The show is almost a different character. Plus Tyrion is much more capable in the books. Tywinn is a bad *** in all forms.

All the "smart" characters are more capable in the books. Littlefinger, Vary's, Tyrion, Doran Martell, etc... The show has done a terrible job with these characters after straying from the books. Littlefinger willingly gives up trump card, the key to the North, Sansa, to Ramsey without properly vetting him, Vary's doesn't do anything anymore, and Tyrion has become totally inept having lost all ability to read people and situations and plan accordingly. And Doran? Well, they fucked up Dorne royally, no further explanation needed.

There's no way Tyrion in the books would never believe...

1). That Cersei would put more noble intentions ahead of her own self interest.
2). That Cersei would be dumb enough to fight alongside Dany and Co. knowing that they're coming for her soon after. Cersei's ONLY play is to hope that the Night King is defeated by Dany and Co. while losing a significant portion of her military strength in the process.

I absolutely hate the way the show has mismanaged Tyrion... All that incredible character building in the first four seasons has been ruined. He's a dunce now. He's pretty much the hardest character to screw up and somehow D&D have done it.

Interesting new theory....

This past season the Hound saw into the fire very clearly, more clearly than even the Red Lady. So the theory goes that he's always been able to see into the fire even when he was a kid. Maybe he didn't steal the Mountain's toy, but instead saw the Mountain's death and told him about it. It was that revelation that enraged the Mountain pushing the Hound's face into the fire.

Maybe, he saw the Mountain's death at the hands of......Arya. It would explain a lot. It would explain why the Hound looks after her for so long. It would explain what the Hound said to the Mountain in the last episode about, "you know who is coming for you". Hell, even things like showing Arya sparring against Brienne could be used to show she could hold her own and take out a much larger opponent.

http://hellogiggles.com/reviews-coverage/tv-shows/game-of-thrones-cleganebowl-theories/

"Fin D wrote:

Interesting new theory....

This past season the Hound saw into the fire very clearly, more clearly than even the Red Lady. So the theory goes that he's always been able to see into the fire even when he was a kid. Maybe he didn't steal the Mountain's toy, but instead saw the Mountain's death and told him about it. It was that revelation that enraged the Mountain pushing the Hound's face into the fire.

Maybe, he saw the Mountain's death at the hands of......Arya. It would explain a lot. It would explain why the Hound looks after her for so long. It would explain what the Hound said to the Mountain in the last episode about, "you know who is coming for you". Hell, even things like showing Arya sparring against Brienne could be used to show she could hold her own and take out a much larger opponent.

http://hellogiggles.com/reviews-coverage/tv-shows/game-of-thrones-cleganebowl-theories/

My issue with that is Gregor does not seem be "alive" in the traditional sense (lol) and probably cannot be killed in the traditional sense. Arya, for all that she is, I am not sure would be able to do something like a decapitation, which is likely needed for Gregor (or death by fire). Remember the prior season when the acolyte hit him with that big spike and the only thing he got was his head bashed in? I get the feeling that Sandor overcomes his fear of fire to kill him. Showing her sparring with Brienne is nothing, because Gregor is not mortal like Brienne.

"Paul 13 wrote:

Last night I was wondering why Bran didn't warg into the little monster (Tyrion) and stop that incest scene from occurring. Bran is supposed to know these things are happening right?

In the context of the show it's not considered incest. Only immediate family members are incest. There are actually a lot of places in the world today where that's still the case. I don't know why people are freaking out about it (not saying you are specifically). Tywin's wife was also his first cousin.

"Clark Kent wrote:

Quick Thoughts About the Finale

- Ice Dragon: Awesome! It's already starting to decay though, the wings already have holes in them...
- Night King: What was his plan to get beyond the wall if that Dragon hadn't shown up?
- Raven: Anyone notice the line about how Raven's take longer to travel in bad weather? lol.
- Jon/Aegon: In the books, Rhaegar's first son was named Aegon and the daughter Rhaeneys. I thought the show mentioned this as well, no? Or did they never mention Rhaegar's previous children by name?
- Tyrion: All solemn when he saw Jon going to hook up with Dany. Did I miss something?
- Winterfell: Thank God it's over...
- Jaime/Cersei: Jaime finally recognizing that something is wrong with this crazy *****... Although I have no idea what Cersei or King's landing is going to do next season, I would love Jaime v. Cersei...
- Reunions: I'm still enjoying them. Hound and Brienne bonding over their murder baby, Arya was cool. Hound and Mountain was interesting. Cleganebowl?! I want it.
Qyburn: I love how he grabs the hand and tries to study it. What a creepster.

LOL I was wondering the exact same thing. Is he just winging this whole thing!?

So thoughts?

"Fin D wrote:

So thoughts?

so many thoughts....

With John finding out his true identity, how does that affect his new found relationship with our favorite blonde queen? Is there a power struggle there that, as this is GOT, will develop over the remaining episodes to where the two can't get along? Or at least, the "advisers" that are surrounding the two attempt to turn them against each other? I mean, Sam reacting the way he did to his father's death (who he should hate right?) is a little surprising and not consistent with what we know about him. He should have reacted like Arya did when she found out her aunt was dead (with a gut busting laugh). Instead he's the one that breaks it to John... as prompted to do so by Bran.

Tyrion and now Jamie perhaps joining forces is going to be interesting (they should be extremely loyal to each other to the end). Especially if John and the DQ choose to punish Jamie.

Why does Bran look more and more like the Night King? I don't know, but if we go full blown "Lost" mode (as always tends to happen at the end of the greatest shows), nothing is off the table, time warps, worm holes, dreams, multiple dimensions, etc etc. Bran being the 3-eyed raven is the key to that. I just hope it doesn't end like that. Too good of a show to get lazy at the end.

The greatest show of all time (in my opinion) needs the greatest ending of all time. I'm so freaked out about spoilers that I probably won't come back to this thread until after the finale and of course all the remaining episodes will be watched the same night they air by me. :lol:

"Paul 13 wrote:

so many thoughts....

With John finding out his true identity, how does that affect his new found relationship with our favorite blonde queen? Is there a power struggle there that, as this is GOT, will develop over the remaining episodes to where the two can't get along? Or at least, the "advisers" that are surrounding the two attempt to turn them against each other? I mean, Sam reacting the way he did to his father's death (who he should hate right?) is a little surprising and not consistent with what we know about him. He should have reacted like Arya did when she found out her aunt was dead (with a gut busting laugh). Instead he's the one that breaks it to John... as prompted to do so by Bran.

Tyrion and now Jamie perhaps joining forces is going to be interesting (they should be extremely loyal to each other to the end). Especially if John and the DQ choose to punish Jamie.

Why does Bran look more and more like the Night King? I don't know, but if we go full blown "Lost" mode (as always tends to happen at the end of the greatest shows), nothing is off the table, time warps, worm holes, dreams, multiple dimensions, etc etc. Bran being the 3-eyed raven is the key to that. I just hope it doesn't end like that. Too good of a show to get lazy at the end.

The greatest show of all time (in my opinion) needs the greatest ending of all time. I'm so freaked out about spoilers that I probably won't come back to this thread until after the finale and of course all the remaining episodes will be watched the same night they air by me. :lol:

I'm psyched I finally got The Players Klub on the Android box so I could catch up. Saw Season 7 for first time this weekend before the premiere last night. Of course if Jon Snow was smart, he'd keep that secret to himself to keep the unity vs the dead, but since they keep playing up his honesty, I"m sure he blurts it out and ruins all the good feelings that seem to be building up (and out of place in this show).

Also, I thought it worked extremely well how they brought back all the characters together at end of season 7. you almost forget about some of the sub-stories that happened earlier in the show.