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Discussion in 'TV, Music and Movies' started by Fin D, Aug 2, 2015.
Is Barry decent? I've thought about watching it but haven't yet.
All TV shows have faults.
I don't find many in GoT.
I loved it. I'm sad to see it end, but the ending was great, IMO. I'm satisfied.
Duty over love.
I will agree about the council. the exception being Sam who was fine to be the arch-maester.
Personally, I think if they had a battle in the throne room instead of how it played out, then the rest of the show - or rather lining up how the dust settles in the kingdom would not have worked at all. All that would have done is further propagate the war. I'd much rather they wrap it up nicely where so many shows fail to do so.
..and I don't see Bran being evil at all. He's the definition of neutral. as the TER, he sees what's coming. he doesn't try to fight what he sees. He likely knew the throne would be his and he naturally allowed it to happen.
Agree that the real world variables are there. I think Benioff and Weiss were the most problematic real-world issue - b/c of their deal to do Star Wars and I think that led to their rushing through this season. I don't think the cast would have had a problem if they had 10 episodes instead of 6. That would have been doable and I think more satisfying (even though Dany fans would still not like the turn to madness; I didn't either, but I get it). And, this show is the biggest money maker in HBO's history, so they would not have been too worried about the cost of four more episodes. In fact, from what I've read, HBO gave the show runners the freedom to do as many as 10 episodes this season. With four more episodes they could have created a more realistic storyline for Dany's story arc and turn.
But I think it was lazy writing - the could easily have created more intrigue throughout the season; they could have added more details and made a more realistic turn to darkness/madness for Dany with 3-4 more hour to hour and 15 minute episodes. The writers needed to show more interactions (Tyrion with Bran before the Dead came; Bran telling his sisters; Dany having more interactions that led her further into a darker side of her mind; etc.). They could also have given space for about 15-30 minutes of showing travel parts (another inconsistency over the course of the season - Arya & the Hound take 2 seasons to get north earlier, then arrive at Kings Landing in between two episodes?). And then, the ambush that killed the dragon, etc. So many decisions that were so dumb it was insulting to the audience intelligence ... just add more intelligence.
I also thought it was absurd as to how vulnerable the dragons were under the attack of a few ships, then Dany destroys an entire fleet, two armies, and a fortified city without hardly blinking an eye. I loved that scene, but it was just so incongruous with prior interactions.
I also think the idea of having both dragons live until the attack on Kings Landing - with Dany already psychologically unstable going into the battle - then having one of them die, ideally from a strategically placed spot within the city, would have made for a much more realistic madness that caused her to burn the city.
I did like her ideological turn in the final episode (Hitler- or Stalin-esque).
And I felt decently satisfied with the ending - though I also get that it was over the top that everyone just accepted Jon Snow going to the wall rather than being king of the North.
Frankly, the way they handled the Northmen - those guys seemed fine to switch loyalties about every 15 minutes, lol.
Barry is brilliant, imo.
I thought the council was pretty good. Sam was an ideal maester. I'm cool with Tyrion. The writers made him too dumb but he's not a bad person (maybe in his personal life but he's grown there as well). Brienne and Davos are both good people, loyal, and intelligent.
The only one who is not a good egg is Bronn. But, better to keep someone like that close by. He's not the kind to poison. And, he is a guy you certainly want on your side in any sort of conflict.
Overall, I loved this show (in spite of what I think was some major issues with the writing, especially in the final season and in spots in seasons 6-7). And, like most, I'd have loved for it to have gone 10-12 seasons. I loved the characters GRRM has created. And I loved the complexity of all the different story lines in different parts of the world and different cities. I loved the slow progression. Seasons 2-5 were some of my favorite times of watching the show.
How great was it during those seasons, to put on an episode and watch the intro video and theme music? Such great a great theme composition. I will miss that music. Especially as it panned from city to city. Has to be the best show opening in history in possibly the best show in TV history (certainly top 5-10). We never once skipped the opening.
It really is hard to see it come to an end. I actually teared up at several points (Tyrion and Jaime good by and his finding them dead; Jon killing Dany; Jon's farewell to his family ...).
Will really be hard for anyone to match a show like that for the breadth of storylines and characters. That was such a gargantuan undertaking. I'm glad it was done and I'm glad GRRM has written his books.
Barry is great. One of the most incredibly dark, funny shows on TV. Very unique, Bill Hader should be nominated for every acting award and he's directed some great episodes too. Its crazy, I love the show.
I was satisfied with the ending as well, it tied up everything that "needed" to be tied up and left me wanting more. When there are 8 seasons of a show and there are only a few episodes that were really "bad" I'll take that. People get carried away with nitpicking and critiquing every little thing.
Favorite season, favorite episode?
This is a tough one... right now (and I can change my mind), it's season 6, episode 9... The Battle of the Bastards. That fight was the best one in the show. I really had no idea how it was going to end... Long Night is up there but the dark scenes really hold it back. Why that season? That was also the season that brought us the street battle between Arya and the Waif ("No One"). That was really shot very nicely. Also the season that brought us "the Door." Such a sad ending for Hodor. HOLD THE DOOR!! An of course the first episode brings Jon back, how can you not love that?
S5E8 Hardome... also fantastic episode.
S4E8... The Mountain and the Viper. Brutally brilliant.
what are gonna be the spin offs to this show?
what story lines and characters would we like to see shows on?
Game of thrones movie?
how bout the story of Drogon continuing on his journey without his mama?
just call it 'Drogon' and make a billion dollars.
Good list and observations. All those are great. Some of my favs as well. Impossible for me to pick just one. I tend to be biased toward episodes that emphasize the North - love the cold/snow scenes and also love the mystery of the North; and enjoyed watching Danaerys growing in strength and facing obstacles to the east.
I was a fan of The Climb (S3E6) and Watchers on the Wall (S4E9). I'm terrified of heights so it was uncomfortable but I also loved the North scenes.
So what are the other 97? I kid I kid.
How did Tyrion betray the queen? I wouldn’t call a strong moral disagreement over the slaughtering of innocent people a “betrayal”.
Sansa was more the true Heir than the half Targaryen. Don’t see how she stabbed him in the back. Jon’s fate wasn’t up to her.
Yes, bc the Unsullied insisted on it. You’d rather a huge & costly war ensue just to keep Jon out of the Night Watch, where he once voluntarily entered in the first place?
He wasn’t tosses aside; he was spared. And yes, to prevent a war, they would happily settle on The Wall as a compromise.
the Unsullied left bc Westeros isn’t there home and bc the goal there was accomplished- the wheel was broken. Jon never wanted the throne, nor King in the North, and it’s unnecessary for him to occupy those positions during a time of peace.
A) There was no budget or time to produce yet another massive S8 battle.
B) The Unsullied didn’t end up with nothing. They didn’t join Dany and stay with her over materialism. Her goal of a broken wheel in Westeros was accomplished.... and there’s nothing in Westeros that they actually earned or deserved. It’s not their land, which means they had no reason to stay. And Greyworm doesn’t get a vote bc it’s not his home either. You think an outsider should be able to waltz into foreign lands and immediately be handed a vote? I don’t recall seeing House Greyworm ever mentioned in the show.
She totally was mad. She incinerated more innocent lives in 1 day than all the Lannister’s combined throughout their history, and worst of all- didn’t show a hesitation worth of remorse about it. Jon clearly tried to talk sense into her. He even brought up all the innocent women & children she burned and asked her if she’s walked through the streets yet to see what she’s done. But she didn’t care. At that point, he knew she could never be reasoned with.
I think we may have watched a different show bc I witnessed a very mad Dany flying over a thoroughly defeated King’s Landing and intentionally burning innocent men, women, and children alive..... then not show a shred of remorse about it and have the irresponsible nerve to say “We’ll Cersei made me do it”.
This isn’t the first time that she’s killed innocent people without remorse BTW.
Not to mention- Dany made it implicitly clear to Jon that she will continue to BBQ innocent lives by the millions [rough estimation based on scale] until a globally broken wheel is accomplished. When your answer to the age old philosophical question of How many innocent lives would you sacrifice for the greater good is “most of them”.... well then you’re really not for the greater good. You’re just mad. Even Hitler believed he was making the world a better place.
Had the writers created a big conflict involving Dany, Jon, Greyworm, and Drogon [by default], another large scale war would’ve ensued, and there’s no way from a production standpoint that that could’ve been feasible.
LOL, I get that Dany was "temporarily insane" with rage, hatred or whatever we want to insert in there. To me though, that doesn't make her "the mad king" reincarnate. She still loved Jon and still wanted to share power, even when the obvious move was to kill him (if Tyrion can be believed...which in this case I think he can). Also, she didn't kill Tyrion on the spot or even belittle him out loud (she called him a traitor in a hushed tone....would a mad person do that?). Those scenes don't say to me "this is the mad queen". She was still the same Dany...who sorta committed genocide while claiming the throne.
I get they had to wrap up the plot but I saw hope for redemption anyway...and I just don't think Jon would do that to her...not like that. I just hated everything about how that unfolded.
can't agree. everything they wrote into this season about Jon suggests he would do it. duty over everything else.
They telegraphed it.
Basically you are right in the sense that nothing was set up in a way that makes any sense and characters changed who they were to get the story to where they wanted to go. They turned a character piece into a spectacle piece.
Though the did point out with huge shining colors that Jon was going to anti-climactically and boringly murder Dany.
He set his brother free after she already told him- don't betray me again. But then he threw the Hand badge on the ground in front of all the Unsullied....she had to make an example of him after that but she remained composed anyway and whispered that he was a traitor.
How? For the last season, we've heard that Jon has the best claim to the throne. Not Sansa, Bran or even Khalisi...that's what caused all the drama to begin with.
Are you kidding? We just had eight seasons fighting for that silly metal chair....then they all give up on the rightful heir just like that? I'm sorry, that's just too much of a stretch when Jon united the north AND the wildlings AND led the assault on the Night King.
Spared for what? He did what none of the others could do....yet desperately wanted. You don't spare the true king for defending his kingdom from a mass murderer, and you definitely don't let the mass murderers army dictate the terms.
Here's the thing though- the Unsullied left. They have no idea what will happen in Westeros- so why force Jon to go to the wall? Make him king of the north again or let him choose his own path. I'll say it again, all of these people making the decision was rooting for Jon for 8 seasons and he did their dirty work....there's zero reason to punish him for ending Dani's rule other than to make the foreigners get on the boat.
We didn't need a massive battle...we needed Jon and Grey Worm to slug it out. Once the worm lost, throw the rest on a boat and tell them they're free. We get to the same plot line without everyone turning on Jon....and he can decide to go north.
I agree....but if that was the direction they were going, they shouldn't have had her spare Tyrion an immediate execution and then have her talk about her childhood with Jon. Those are showing a reasonable ruler who did what she thought she had to do in the heat of battle. War strategy doesn't make her "mad" all by itself....that was just her beliefs.
Did she deserve to die? YES!!! Did they show the mad queen? In my opinion, no. They showed a warrior go ballistic in the heat of battle.
That's true...duty came first to him. At the same time though, he would have to be 100% convinced that he couldn't change her mind...and it was a 30 second conversation where she smiled and laughed about childhood. I guess that's what I'm so hung up on.
Best fight of the show:
Hound vs Brianne
Runner up-Mountain vs Viper
Hound and Arya
Runner up-Tyrion and Varys
Best jump up and cheer moment:
Arya vs Knight King
Runner up-Jon vs Ramsey (not the battle but the one on one fight)
Hardest gut punch:
Red Wedding (duh)
Runner up-Viserion getting killed then white walkered
Baddest mother (Shut your mouth):
Most underused character:
Runner up-Hot Pie
Character that died too soon:
Runner up-Khal Drogo
Character that lived too long:
Runner up-Ellaria Sand
Least interesting significant character:
Runner up-High Sparrow
Most hated waif:
Runner up-the waif
I have a different opinion on the definition of mad. When you needless slaughter tens of thousands of innocent lives, you’re mad. If King’s Landing represented a microcosm of the rest of the world [which it did to Dany, as clearly expressed by her], then how many innocent lives would’ve been left after she conquered everything. She would’ve been “Queen of the Ash”.
Like I mentioned before- she’s always had a thirst for blood & fire and the only reason it was acceptable before was bc it was being used on slave owners, but there are no slave owners in Westeros.
I got to disagree on Jon...im sorry but he stabs Dany but cant put Greyworm in his place as the rightful heir? Grow a set or deal with the consequences. Hkw can you be strong enough to kill the queen but cant deal with her commander? Jon wimped out. He had it.
I was happy for Arya. That was my favorite character thru the show. She got to sail off and explore. She deserved some R&R after fighting through basically all 8 seasons lol
It wasn't wimpy, it was honor and duty.
Jon felt guilt for killing Dany and believed Grey Worm was right to arrest him for it.
That takes courage actually.
I do agree, but they were building up to them going toe to toe both the last episodes. I really thought honor would be taking out the commander that killed unarmed soldiers that surrendered...Jon clearly did the lesser of two evils (between the two characters).
GOT is funny though- we feel bad for the Worm. We feel bad for Jon. We feel bad for every darn person on the show except for maybe Arya, but that's only because she hasn't been thru pure hell the last season or so. I loved that she set off to explore as well though...I think that's the only part of the ending that made me happy.
Here's something else I thought about-
If Jon didn't kill Dani, they would have married and Jon was king.
If Jon killed Grey Worm, Jon was king.
If Dani killed Tyrion (before Jon killed or married Dani), Jon was king.
If Jon married Dani THEN killed her, Jon is king.
The ONLY ending that got us to Jon not being king was killing Dani while Tyrion was alive...because without that little speech, Bran wasn't king. I mean, if Jon did nothing for two days but pout....Jon was king no matter what after Tyrion was dead.
Here's the other thing- Kings Landing has a long tradition of trial by combat. Jon easily could have said, I'll fight my accuser to the death and BAM, we have Jon vs GreyWorm without any outside consequences. Everyone would have to honor that and afterwards, Jon is king.
So I think I changed my mind about one thing- Jon isn't king because the writers made him the ultimate hero for 8 1/2 seasons....and a total wimp at the very last moment.
Anyway, back to duty. In retrospect, it was Jon's duty to marry the mad queen or kill her master of war. Then he could have chosen his successor. I mean, if Jon declared from the Iron Throne that Bran the Broken would rule the kingdom, then fans would have rejoiced. Heck, he could have named Gilly and folks would have been happy....as long as it was him making the final call.
Darn it, I should be a writer for HBO...I'm so much better at this than they are!
Jon didn't want to be king. Full stop. None of his actions were to be king. His actions were for duty and honor. Jon also didn't believe he should be the one to choose because he followed honor against his duty.
He didn't want to marry Dany, because they were related. That's why he stoped being with her. He was torn between the duty of fulfilling her orders and the honor of stopping her because she was mad. He followed his honor but also believed he should be punished for violating his duty. That level of duty and honor is why we all wanted Jon on the throne to being with, so it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to blast the show for ensuring he stays true to his character.
Nothing Jon did was cowardly or against his nature.
Ugh, Dany didn’t go “temporarily insane”. She explicitly told us that she planned to do to the rest of the world what she did to King’s Landing. The only reason you can even claim that it was temporary is bc Jon ended her conquest. Had she been able to carry on, she would’ve made the Holocaust seem like a drive by shooting.
What do you think would’ve happened once word spread of what she did? There’s NO FREE PEOPLE ON ANY CONTINENT that would’ve embraced her. Dany essentially just waged war against all of them. Meaning, wherever she shows up to “break the wheel”, the free population there would band against her, turning all of them into her enemy. In Dany’s version, the only innocent people of the world who will exist in the end are the slaves. Everyone else turns to ash.
Hell, even if it were temporary, which it wasn’t, she slaughtered over 100k innocent lives. There’s no coming back from that, nor justifying it.
LMAO, I completely understand your point of view...I just don't agree. I don't think she realized what she actually did, to be honest, because it was right after the war and she was thinking about a lot at once. And while typing that, yes, I can hear myself and how lame that sounds. Again though, I think for me it all comes back to how fast everything moved- that should have been 3-4 episodes instead of 30 minutes.
It's all fantasy anyway so I guess there's no point arguing.....although I'm having a ton of fun doing it, darn it! I'd rather talk GOT than football for the next few months. =)
The Joffrey assassination had all of the latent tension shared by some of the best "hits" in the most famous mobster/mafia movies and shows.
It takes courage but if there is a thing that annoyed me about the way they ended the show, Tyrion inspired Jon enough to kill her in the first place but not enough to make a claim for the throne he had rightful claim to. So maybe wimpy was the wrong word...maybe it was just he went 2/3rds of the way and didnt go for it. Its like he knew she was wrong for it, acknowledged and fixed it, and then didnt lay claim to the throne. So in some respect i can see whwre youre coming from, but Grey Worm is not in position to tell him what to do. And the only justification he needed to say was that he wouldnt let a tyrant rule.
I had sometime to think about it. Listen to some people who liked it, and some people who didn't. The last episode was dumb as ****!
Also kind of bland. By kind of bland, very bland. Though visually stunning. Wow, what a beautiful show. Too bad the writing was garbage. Pure garbage. The acting was great.
One of the reviewers had the perfect critique for the last episode. It felt like a sitcom ending. It really did. Pretty much a happy ending.
It is nice of Dany to bring out her Hitler garb after she went full Hitler.
I have come to the conclusion that Drogon has the heart of a theater nerd. His choreography during Dany's Hitler speech was spot on. His desire for symbolism for burning down the thrown was poetic. Then there was his dramatic exit.
My favorite part was how easy it was for Tyrion to find Jamie and Cersei. They could have moved a few feet and survived. They looked great for being crushed to death, however since those rocks were weightless, maybe they just died because they believed the rocks were heavy. The power of the mind.
The one thing that has been most consistent about this show even when I did like it during the first four seasons, is how bad Jon Snow is written. Such an annoying character.
I will say the acting is still on point.
I was told for years this show would have a bittersweet ending.
It really had a sweet ending. That was a fairytale happy ending. All the Starks got what they wanted, Tyrion is hand of the king and I am assuming lord of Castely Rock. Jon Snow is going to be king beyond the wall, maybe. I don't know. That was vague. Arya is becoming an adventurer for reasons. Sansa is queen of the north. Nice of her brother to just let her secede like that. You would think the Greyworms would want to as well, as well the Dorne, because why wouldn't they.
Bran is the true villain. He set everything up, said all the right things to make himself king of the six kingdoms. Got to watch out for those quiet ones.
Sad how this show started out so good, and then ended so bad. So very bad. My favorite part is that season 8, people finally were able to see what I was seeing. Just how bad the writing was getting. I am not looking forward to D&D adding more rape to Star Wars.
Again, your take requires Jon wanting to rule and he just didn't.
No, he could have simply killed Grey Worm.
I don't understand how Jon survived.
Honestly, I thought they were going to just go full fanservice and have him jump on the dragon and kill the unsullied and the Dothraki.
I am very curious as to why they took him, prisoner.
He didn't think he should.
Jon was conflicted between duty and honor. He felt the right thing to do was to kill Dany for honor and suffer the consequences of his literal treason.
How can it be treason when he’s the rightful heir to the throne? And Greyworm was never going to be loyal to a Stark? Your idea of who was acting in a treasonous manner is reversed.
Jonnsurvived because Superman always survives. In what world was Jon not going to survive? Back from the dead? No problem? Whitewalkers? No problem. Lannister’s? Got it. The list goes on. He was always going to survive. I’m ok with that. I just felt his character deserved more with the ending
George RR Martin did start this series because he was tired of those tropes (though no one believed Jon really died at the end of Dance with Dragons)
I kind of wish the Dragon killed him.