I thought we were talking about the first five games. He was roughly hit more due to the combination of both injuries and HORRIBLE pocket presence. He is nearly as bad as Rob Johnson.
It is definitely needed in the case of Chad Henne. Also Pennington did find wide receivers to throw too and that is with a vastly inferior Camarillo, rookie Devone Bess and Ginn.
I agree that he's a waste IF he has no one around him to prevent teams from game-planning against him. However, if you have a balanced offense with players capable of making defenses pay when single covered etc, I do not think elite WRs are a dime a dozen. IMO their presence allows an offense to do so many things that they may have otherwise not. During the regular season, I agree, they're not always necessary in the fact that you can win games without them; however, I do feel that when you get to the post season or face elite defenses, you need guys like these if you want the best chance to win. For example: Larry Fitzgerald single-handedly took Zona through the playoffs and almost won a SB for a team not expected to be there in the first place. 2008 playoffs Fitz vs Atlanta: (101 yards, 1 TD) 1st TD: 42 yarder. ***Boldin also took a short pass for a 71 yard TD. Fitz vs Carolina (166 yards, 1 TD) -41 yard catch leading to first TD -29 yard TD over double coverage. -25 & 17 yard catches on another drive leading to FG. Fitz vs Philly (152 yards, 3 TDs including a 62 yarder) Fitz vs Pitt (127 yards, 2 TDs) -his 64 yarder would've been the game winner if another receiver didn't make an outstanding catch to steal the victory. These receivers can be worth their weight in gold during big games IMO, hence Atlanta sacrificing so much to draft Julio Jones. The Falcons were fine during the regular season, but when they got to the playoffs, they didn't have enough umph to do enough damage against the Packers. Look at all the SB teams throughout history. How many of those had great to elite receivers? A lot of them.
Ummmm...no? I don't think that Henne was a placeholder until Pennington was healthy. I think Sparano started to panic, and went with his proven vet...cause he's a proven vet. I don't disagree that there was a reason for the benching...I disagree that HENNE himself was the reason for the benching. The TEAM was playing like ***, and the offense wasn't scoring points. Sparano couldn't, or wouldn't, dump Henning midseason, so instead, he benched Henne. So, MY opinion is that Sparano panicked when he saw the season slipping away, and instead of getting rid of Henning, or taking over playcalling duty, he instead opted to turn to his veteran backup, to see if he could salvage the season, while staying in Henning's pathetic offense.
my bad. In that regard I agree his pocket presence needed improving..... and I believe it did improve some as the season progressed when we saw him running to pick up first downs and to prevent losses unlike earlier in the year. I'm not absolving him b/c he definitely has some more improving to do.
Well, call it what you want. I call it "panic", especially considering that in the offseason Ross was attempting to replace him. @ Alen: I guess I more saying that Henning's offense got "exposed" as the steaming pile of crap that it really is. It works fine when you're playing teams like we did in 2008...but against good teams, you lose. Look at 2008 against the Ravens...and any number of games last season.
That used to frustrate me no end. Henne would be moving the offense down to the 35 or so, like the edge of field goal range, and then we pull him for the WC and usually the offense would bog down and we attempted a field goal.
Of course he had some talent to work with. The RBs and TEs he had to work with were worse than those in 2008 though.
I don't think we can underestimate the impact of David Martin, our backs more successful out of the backfield, and a better ground game had on the offense. I'd put that against the skill players last season, especially since our 2 starting receivers and starting TE spent time watching from the sideline. Penny wasn't throwing to a mixture of 6 practice squad guys and a receiver fresh off the street without a ground game to keep defenses honest.
I attribute nearly all of that to Kurt Warner. You said look at the Superbowl teams throughout history. Well, recent history shows us something. The last team with an "elite" receiver that won a Superbowl was the St. Louis Rams. Baltimore, New England, Pittsburgh, New York, Indianapolis, New Orleans, and Green Bay - none have "elite" wide receivers.
It has nothing to do with Penny having Martin & his 31 catches instead of a group of nobodies as #2 TE?..... or Ricky, Ronnie, and Cobbs when they were better threats out of the backfield? In 08 Ricky had a 47 yarder; Ronnie had a 39 yarder; Cobbs had an 80 yarder; Martin had a 61 yarder. Our best reception from our backs & #2 TEs this year was 29 yards.
You call Shuler, Epps, Mastrud, Moore, Wallace, Pruitt, Kevin Curtis, grandpa Ricky, slow Ronnie, and a not the same Cobbs as "talent to work with"? I'm speechless. Aaron Rodgers is completely jealous of this group. I hear he was begging to trade for them.
I didn't realize how bad it truly was until I watched it again for the 2nd time. I'm not saying Henne's a pro bowler or anything, but at least give the offense an opportunity to punch it in..... or at least reward the kid for moving the team down the field in the first place, especially considering most of these drives were 50+ yards (due to our offense's 2nd to worst starting field position in the league thanks to no return game or ability to create turnovers on defense).
I said "great to elite". I'm not sure how you contribute all of that to Warner when he wasn't the one making the plays on the receiving end of the throws. If the receivers didn't matter, then all the receptions and TDs would be evenly shared and they'd all have the same yards per catch. If receivers didn't matter, they wouldn't have won MVP honors in 3 of the last 6 SBs. 2009- Santonio Holmes, WR 2006- Hines Ward, WR 2005- Deion Branch, WR
You could argue Jennings and Wayne are elite, depending on your definition of elite. I really don't see how you can contribute that all to Warner when it was a collective effort, from the play caller to the offensive coordinator to Warner to the receivers (Faulk included). EDIT: Marvin Harrison was sure as hell an elite player.
Yeah, Henning would reward him by pulling him on 1st and 2nd down to run the WC, and put him back on 3rd and 8 to run a play action pass. Way to fool everyone Dan.
I'm not sure why I'm laughing because it's not that funny....... however the pure unfunniness of it is kinda funny.
you know i tell my friends about this kind of stuff we would do (and this is all true) and i always just stop ranting and go "Man, how the hell did we win a game..." it's amazing we were 7-9. really.
Deej, you're gonna be disgusted when you rewatch our first 4 drives against Pitt. I believe it's not until the 5th drive that we run any 3 WR sets.
This is my last post and I see it best we both add each other to our ignore lists. Everyone on this board is spraking through what they believe. It's fricking opinion. My argument is no different than yours other than being on different sides. You use specific facts/stats to help form your opinion. Same thing I am doing we are just on opposite sides. The difference being is I'm not calling you arrogant, I'm not calling you pompous and I'm not devaluing your opinion and making 890 other arguments we've had in past discussions. I'm challenging and arguing the reason why Chad Henne was benches and his ability to lead the team to points. I haven't chastised the guy the entire thread, I believe. And if I have it's been regarding a completely different discussion. I'm not going to repostk what I've said but it wasn't chastising the guy. You believe what you want. In your eyes, you believe the coaching staff still views Henne as the guy with a better OC and parts. That's you making an opinion based on what you believe are the coaches and organizations intentions. Are you so blind that you can't see that. Again, you're doing the exact same thing just on a different side of the fence. My position is and will be the same. I don't see how a player that wasn't injured, that wasn't being reprimanded, that wasn't suspended etc. just gets pulled out of the lineup and it not be an indictment on his play. I'm sorry I didn't specifically get into what plays Henning was at fault for, i.e Wildcat and toss sweeps. However, ive made it clear here and in other threads that he was just as much an issue as Henne. He's gone and rightfully so. I didn't get on the guy for his poor play this game, nor did I about Pitt. I haven't even mentioned Pitt here. I've said over and again that he struggled getting this team to score points, whether getting them down there, getting him in there, whatever. It was so much a problem that the team benches him. Would it make you feel better for me to add IMO after every phrase so you understand? The opportunities he had he didn't make due on. How many opportunities does one need? He's had a great running game in '09. He's had great protection. He's had a deep threat in '09. He's had a #1 WR in '10. I mean he's had more to work with than most young QBs, yet he's still put up mediocre numbers and had trouble leading the team to points. I dont want to throw him away but I want him to have a real competition for the job in 2011. Screw the "dividing the team" idea. He wins the job firly and the team and offense have success he will have the team and no fear of who is behind him. I didn't want to get into all this because it's week 5 but you've forced my hand by continuing to go off topic, challenge the history of my feelings on Chad Henne and then go wacko by saying I'm wrong for trying to thin what the coaches are thinking--when that's all we do here.
Deej, there are a handful of things I didn't pay attention to that I wished I should have like: how many passes did Chad "miss". How many were not on the money. How many drives were stalled by the ground game and/or poor play calling. How many times were our receivers covered up.
I disagree Red about him and that Packer game and that he played just ok''..Thru the first 5 games of the season, for a QB in his 2nd year as a starter, for a QB that had abysmal production from his running back tandem, he played I would say Good to very good, not just OK..The packer game, if Marshall gets his toe in he throws for 2 td's...Check this out, Marshall was 9/107...in the first half.. Not being able to score td's has a lot to do with field position, we were the worst in the NFL at that statistic, the worst..
i didn't say that he played OK against GB. I said he played OK through the first 5 games. Again, it's another case of people wanting to see something there that isn't. He did play well against GB. He played well against the NYJ. He had a poor game against NE, and he played OK the first two games where he was handcuffed by the play-calling. Yet, he did have opportunities to make plays, but he wasn't the reason why the offense struggled and the team was middle of the road--through the first 5 games. Exactly like I've claimed this entire thread.
Iam the biggest wildcat fan there is and I hope it continues to evolve, but the timing and situational use of it was borderlin sabatoge. The formation should be used on first down when you have a situation that your going to run the ball in regardless, it should never be used on 3rd down and 6 or over.. It should be used when the team is inside the 5 yard line when you have a 1st and 2nd down. Or it could be used at any time when its 3rd and short..
Until the WCQB shows they can pass effectively, the WC is a power running formation only Deej. DTrain said prior to coming to KSU he was "exclusively a WCQB" for 2 yrs at JUCO..wanna blitz your cb's now?
I'am not sure what your definition of Ok is but if it wasn't for those 2 picks in the patriot game, your looking at a qb over that stretch with close to a 95 passer rating, Omo that's better than ok no? I am also defining his performance relative to his total starts at the position and relative to other QB's around the league. Once again, thru 5 games, I dont believe anyone should be even close to being upset with the performance at that position.. We've got to take into account that he is gonna throw some pics and not be perfect at that stage. Aslo red, the ignore list is an easy way out...
Well, one of Henne's issues is he sort of has poor depth perception so to speak, when a defender undercuts a route even when Henne sees the defender (no given BTW) he has real problems completing the pass. The int in the endzone in the raiders game for example, or the int's vs the patsies, he just has this issue with touch and feel in the passing game and defenses have figured it out, that also shows up in corner routes in the endzone as well.
The issue with Henne is that he is either not quick enough in his reads or sometimes he's too quick. Its always one or the other it seems. He needs to get that fixed and I think this new offense should help him with that by getting the ball out of his hands quickly and allowing our receivers to get yards after the catch, which is what they do best IMO.
Agreed Alen, I've compared his ultimate ceiling to Jim Kelly, same mentality, similar skillsets, Kelly did not really flourish in the NFL until the K-Gun was installed in Buffalo, of course he got hit..a lot, in that scheme but he was tough enough to soak it up, Henne strikes me as the same sort of Qb.
