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Freemasons

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by anlgp, Feb 16, 2009.

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  1. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    If anyone wants to know about masonic history or freemasons in general I have been involved with them in the past. I don't want to deal with all the conspiracy crap because from my experience it is not true so please do not ask; but if you have serious questions let me know and I will answer them to the best of my ability and obligations i have taken.

    I have not been a part of the fraternity this year but the past two years before that I was heavily involved. I will not comment on anything that will break my obligation and so if you bring it up and I don't answer it one way or the other you know why. I am not involved now for various reasons but may want to be again in the future which is why I will not break my obs.
     
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  2. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    dead honest question bro.....what EXACTLY is a freemason? and what does it entail ?
     
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  3. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    First off, freemasonry differs very much from state to state and country to country, and even person to person. so what I say may be true to me but not necessarily someone else.

    Freemasonry is a fraternity of morals. It teaches morals through allegory of a stone mason and his tools.

    It is a way to better ones self using a building (yourself basically) and tools (certain moral aspects, ie. truth, etc). The building and the tools correspond to how you should live your life in accordance with deity, country, neighbor and self.

    As for what it entails.. it involves a business meeting once a month and several charities. Shriners are masons for example. It involves philosophic thought and self improvement. Your world grows very vastly. Through it I have met many men and visited with many men around the country without fear of being harmed or otherwise taken advantage of because of the obligations they take and uphold.
     
  4. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    so is this a type of religon?
     
  5. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    no.

    you have to have a belief in a higher power before you join in most places and types of Freemasonry. There are some bodies that do not require this but for most types you will have to believe in god or allah or buddha or ...something... to be a mason.

    edit:

    there is no worship involved at a lodge. there is no specific creed required.
     
  6. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    so...i dont wanna push envelopes or anything....

    but what goes on at the lodge? what is discussed? what is the main purpose for each individual while being there? and how or do you try to extend this belief to other people? or do you just let them find it on their own?
     
  7. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    there are some things that go on that i can't comment on because i promised to myself and god that i wouldn't in my obligation. basically they teach you how to treat the world through story. it is not anything you haven't heard before. be good to strangers, be good to yourself. family comes first, etc. it's in the way they go about it that is truly eye opening.

    what is discussed as best i can tell it is basically symbolism. the use of objects as a way to further your intellect about the world and yourself.

    there are several reasons why a person may join, but while they are there it is to discuss anything and everything you might want (except while a meeting is going on) with the exception of politics or religion.. and the reason those two aren't allowed in a tyled (closed) meeting is because freemasonry feels those topics divide people and not unite them.

    masonry is never going to come knocking on your door for you to be a member. you have to ask if you are interested.. and you'd obviously ask the lodge or a member.. or me even because I could point anyone here in the right direction.

    basically, it is sought not taught until you get in.
     
  8. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    so is it a collective group of people trying to make the world a better place?
     
  9. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    yup.
     
  10. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    what made you seek out this belief?
     
  11. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    [mod]please stop the offtopic posting[/mod]
     
  12. Dannyg28

    Dannyg28 Say hi to the rings

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    [mod]please stop the off topic posting[/mod]
     
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  13. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    I'm interested in symbolism and understanding the world through a different perspective.
     
  14. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    is it all men? in your first part you reffered to meeting men around the world....or can women join? and are there membership fee's and all that?
     
  15. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    most places it is all men and those men will tell you there are no women. but there are women but they are not considered 'true' masons by most men. women can not join a mans lodge and men can not join a womens lodge ... now remember i said it varies .. so there are some places where this is okay, but mostly not in the US if you want to be recognized.. more on that if you ask.

    yes there's membership fees like any normal fraternity. it varies from 50 bucks to hundreds and i have heard and even a grand a month depending on where you are located and what lodge you join.
     
  16. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    wow...thanks for clearing my questions up....i had no idea about this...i will be reading up more on it...thanks :up:
     
  17. cnc66

    cnc66 wiley veteran, bad spelur Luxury Box

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    Please STOP the off topic posting, this is not the lounge
     
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  18. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    While I understand your concern for keeping the thread on topic the comments made do not bother me in the least; I have heard much worse.
     
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  19. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I actually have quite a few questions. Some arose through various books, some through research of my own, etc.....:

    - Out of curiosity why did you leave/suspend membership?
    - What type of Lodge were you a part of? What level of Mason have you attained?
    - If Masonry is really a system of morality veiled in allegory, illustrated by various symbols, cryptology, codes then what is it that makes it so much different? Why are Masons always mentioned as a root of conspiracy?
    - how did that need for such an organization arise?
    - What is the relationship between Masons and the Roman Catholic Church? Ive read that joining The Free Masons could lead to excommunication; I'm not sure if this still holds true though I know at one point under Pope Clement's Xll's In Eminenti, Pope Leo Xlll's In Apostolici, and The Code of Cannon law the Catholic church forbade even books or newspapers that were friendly to or spoke positively of Free Masons. Though the new code of canon law in the early 80's did not specifically name the masons or specifically excommunicate masonss it does openly threaten as though masons are against the church. Any reason for this?
    - Why was geometry ultimately chosen as the language of the masons?
    - Why is visiting different Grand Lodges or Grand Orients considered irregular? Why would someone get expelled for visiting a different branch of the same religion?
    - are other organizations such as The Orange Order, Knights of Pythias, and the Independent Order of Odd Fellows in any way linked to Free Masons?
    - How many Presidents have been Free Masons? Washington was obviously one, not sure how many other there are though by my guess I have at least 4.
    - What differences are there between operative and speculative masons?
    - How did the King James Version of The Bible become such an integral part of Masonic culture?
    - Any idea why many anti masonic arguments are tied to antisemitism and anti Zionism?

    In case you cant tell, I'm very interested in secret societies or societies with secrets....hope this didn't feel like a firing line of questions. :lol:
     
  20. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    You have done your research I can tell you that.

    1. I have not attended membership because of several reasons. I am spiritually confused at the moment and in the masonry I am involved with you have to believe in a higher power before joining. I don't feel the benefit of going would help me figure out my spiritual beliefs and so I have stopped going. That is one reason. The other reason (the main reason) is something that has to remain between me and the way the system works; because it is hard to explain and because it would come out very angry at the moment, even though it is months old.

    2. There is no "level" of masonry higher than that of a Master Mason; which every blue lodge (to which every mason is a part of) makes members to. The other types of masonry you speak of (most likely Scottish Rite and York Rite) are appendant bodies. They do not make you "more" of a mason they are just a way to further your knowledge. I was raised to a Master Mason and have not (nor will I) persue the appendant bodies.

    3. What makes masonry different is what it does and how it does it. What does it do? It unites people. It is hard for me to explain the feeling of being initiated, passed or raised (what happens when you become a member). It is unlike anything I have ever, ever experienced in my life and is honestly quite beautiful if the ritual is performed well. As they say it is not the destination but the journey, and that is what masonry is all about.

    Masons are always blamed at the root of conspiracy, I believe, because people have an idea that it is "secret". In the united states it is not... not nearly as much as I would like it to be. You can look in your phone book and I guarantee you that you will find a lodge listed under fraternity. You can drive by buildings and see the signs on the door. These are the public things about it that bother me. I have nothing to hide as a Mason, honestly. The things I can't tell you wouldn't rock your world I swear on my own life. This is the secret that I believe gets masons involved with every conspiracy known to man. Those secrets? Do you want to know what they are? They are words and handshakes and gestures made with the hands. But the worst part to me is that those aren't the true secrets of what a person becomes when he becomes a mason. The secret is the journey you have taken and the ritual you have been a part of. As I have explained it is difficult to explain but those that have been through it can tell you they would know exactly what I'm talking about.

    4. Masonry came about formally (1717) in a time where philosophical discussion and improvement of self and culture were looked down upon. Aristocrats could not mingle with blacksmiths without being frowned upon. In a lodge everyone is equal. You step inside a lodge and it is a feeling of true equality.

    5. I was raised a roman catholic. It is not the masons that have problems with catholics but the other way around. I can not tell you their reasons for this because there is nothing I have seen within a lodge that would lead me to believe there is something warranted of being so frightened about. And yes, in some places you can still be excommunicated from the catholic church if it is found out you are a member. In some countries you are killed. In nazi germany hitler had everything burned.

    6. Speculative masonry came from operative masonry. Operative masons build buildings and had to use geometry to get it right. It was the language of operative masons because it is and was one of the tools necessary to get the job done. As far as speculative freemasonry is concerned .. nature is made of geometry. If you take a look at certain life forms you can find patterns.. life has patterns. Look into sacred geometry.

    7. Masonry isn't a religion. There is no "masonic dogma". This is a sticky subject and it is hard to explain but I will do my best. I must admit I am very happy you used the term "irregular" and not "clandestine" and I will explain the difference here in a moment. An "irregular" lodge as far as my obligation is concerned is one that my own grand lodge does not deem "regular". What my grand lodge deems "regular" is based upon ancient landmarks and rules written down from the UGLE (united grand lodge of england); namely no women and the ritual has to be a certain one, a lodge has to have certain things in it, etc. It is considered irregular because I have taken an obligation that stated such and doesn't really matter after that point what I feel about certain things (women in a malecraft lodge, etc). They made the rules, I obligated myself to them. If I did that I could and would be expelled or suspended and I wouldn't bat an eyelash at the decision. You have gone against an obligation you said in front of god and man. Why shouldn't you feel ashamed? This is tied into one of the reasons why I do not go; because there are a few things that my conscious did not sit well with. edit: re clandestine. a clandestine lodge is a lodge that operates under the name "masonic" but is involved in.. well.. clandestine activities. drug lords, etc have claimed to be a masonic lodge when really they were just using the name.. look into the P2 scandal..

    8. Yes but only in the fact that maybe a freemason may have started one. (I don't know this for sure). Other than that, no. They are likened to masonry if anything.

    9. These ones: http://mastermason.com/wilmettepark/pres.html; but to be 100% sure about a certain president I would find what state he was born in and then look them up that way. The lodges will have records.

    10. Operative masons worked with stone and their hands. Speculative Masons work with their hearts and minds.

    11. It is a central part of masonic country in the United States because the majority of the faiths in the country use the bible. Elsewhere you are likely to find other holy books and I know several people who have taken their obligations on other books (tao te ching among them).

    12. No, honestly. I've known a few Jewish members myself.

    ----

    Thank you for the questions, I appreciated them and will look into a few of them myself.

    Remember, I can only go based upon what my own eyes, ears and heart have told me.
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I've always been interested in joining this organization, but alas I'm a stone cold Atheist. You mentioned some lodges don't require the belief in a higher power, how rare are they? Is there a list? Thank you in advance.
     
  22. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    They are rare in the united states. These people http://www.gomasons.org/ can tell you more if you want.

    You will be considered "irregular" to a lot of masons as this group is considered irregular by most grand lodges that I can visit with; which basically would mean that you can't visit their lodge in fellowship, that you can't speak with them masonically & that you WILL catch a lot of flack from most if not all "regular" masons.

    Just so you know what you'd be getting yourself into if that's something you've chosen to do.. but yes the options are there. Talk to those people though, they will know.
     
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  23. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Thanks bro. Like I said, the subject has always fascinated me. I tend to believe that a lot of history is tied in to Free Mason history in some form or another, at least over the last 4-5 centuries. In some era's I think the link is a lot stronger then in others and ultimately Id like to find out what exactly those links are if any.

    by the way, the link doesnt work :sad:

    2). The other bodies of Mason I was referring to are ones that band together certain types of Mason, those similar in careers, shared interest, or shared background. There are also Specialist Lodges of Ritual and Lodges of Research.

    4) What about "informal Masonry"? There have been links to the Free Masons going as far back as the 16th century.

    5) Ya, Im aware most of the disdain seems to be resonating from the end of the Catholic church throughout history. I was wondering of you knew of a specific point where this rivalry, for lack of a better term, started or why? The fact that it exists seems to be no secret but how it became that way does. Maybe our board chaplain would be able to shed more light on it?

    In Nazi Germany, many are not aware that the Masons were in their own concentration camps and the death toll varies anywhere from 80k-200k depending on where you read. Masons were given an inverted red triangle on their uniforms and they were held as political prisoners.

    A side note of irony: the same factory in Germany that produced the Mason "Forget Me Not Flower Badge" first used in Germany in the 1920's, was chosen for the annual Nazi Party Winterhilfswerk, a Nazi charitable organization which collected money so that other state funds could be freed up and used for rearmament. This coincidence enabled Freemasons to wear the forget-me-not badge as a secret sign of membership even during imprisonment.
     
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  24. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    gee thanks gap, if you put this in the longue we coulda had fun. :(
     
  25. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    The types of masonry you speak of as far of "lodges that bring together men of certain interest" and "lodge of researches" are things I have looked into. They cost a bit more but are a bit more focused in their endeavors. The "specialist lodge of ritual" are called emulation lodges and they became popular recently in England and have spread to the US and many other places.

    Informal masonry? yes masonry dates back much further than 1717. the history is kind of hard to go by because records weren't really kept back then. The regis manuscript is the oldest ducment that can be traced and you can read it here http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/regius.html this is a snippet of the age estimated on it "The age of the MS. has been variously estimated. Mr. Halliwell and the late Rev. A.F.A. Woodford supposed it to have been written about 1390, or earlier."

    re catholic church.. there are certain parts of masonic ritual that some people consider sacrilegious. I can't really get into the specifics but there's one part in one ritual in particular that really sticks a feather into some people's craw. maybe someone speaking from the catholic chruch side of things can tell you.. because while i was raised roman catholic i stopped attending church many years ago and don't follow one particular faith now.

    the forget me not fact is actually not a fact. I can't find the specifics on it at the moment but I remember reading somewhere that it is not true.

    There are many more places that will tell you it is, though.. and as I wasn't alive back then I can't really confirm either way.
     
  26. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    fun is in the eye of the beholder my friend.

    I don't really find it enjoyable to take something that was such a big and serious part of my life at one time and turn it into free reign of comments, criticisms, false suggestions and a million posts that I would otherwise ignore because people don't take the time to educate themselves and believe something someone else has said.

    edit:

    and this is not a knock at you. if you have something serious to add I hope you do..

    but I have literally had people stop talking to me once they have found out i was a member. it is annoying.
     
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  27. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

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    The words to this song answers your question. To a degree.

    I'M JUST AN OLD CHUNK OF COAL

    (F) I'm just an old (Bb) chunk of (F) coal,
    But (A) I'm gonna be a diamond some (Dm) day, (F)
    (Bb) I'm gonna grow and glow 'til I'm so (F) blue pure perfect,
    I'm gonna (G7) put a smile on ev'rybody's (C) face. (Gm7) (C7)

    (F) I'm gonna kneel and pray (Bb) ev'ry day, (F)
    Lest (A) I should become vain along the (Dm) way. (F)
    (Bb7) I'm just and old chunk of (F) coal now Lord,
    But I'm gonna be a (C7) diamond some (F) day. (G9) (C7)

    (F) I'm gonna learn the best (Bb) words to (F) talk,
    Gonna (A) search and find a better way to (Dm) walk, (F) yeah!

    (Bb) I'm gonna spit and polish my old rough- (F) edged self,
    'Til (G7) I get rid of ev'ry single (C7) flaw. (Gm7) (C7)
    Well (F) I'm gonna be the world's best friend,
    Gonna (A) go 'round shakin' ev'rybody's (Dm) hand, (F) yeah!

    (F) I'm just an old (Bb) chunk of (F) coal now Lord,
    But (A) I'm gonna be a diamond some (Dm) day, (F)
    (G7) Oh, I'm (Bb) gonna be the cotton-pickin' (F) rage of the (G7) age,
    (F) I'm gonna be a (C7) diamond some (F) day. (Gm7) (F)

    Words and music by Billy Joe Shaver
     
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  28. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    themole, which direction are you traveling?
     
  29. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I have to thank you for opening this up for conversation.

    I had heard the phrase, but honestly didnt know anything at all about what it actually meant.

    I have learned more from reading the short end of this thread than I probably did my ENTIRE 8th grade year in History.....


    Of course I had Dr Cannibus talking to me quite a bit waaaay back then.

    I applaud you for sharing and teaching brother :hi5:
     
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  30. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    There's much more to be learned if you only open yourself up to be taught.

     
  31. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

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    My journey brings me from the east, traveling west.
     
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  32. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

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    Should I do a 180?
     
  33. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    in reference to your direction traveling? yes :sidelol: :hi5: but there has been many a discussion that traveling from west to east has its benefits, too ;) i just can't explain them here

    as far as anything else? only you can decide :up:
     
  34. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

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    :wink2: Just checking! :shifty:
     
  35. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    well i was pointing out with my post using sarcasm(as always) that the idea that a bunch of people who happen to be theists but with no orthodox belief who get together to socialize and have barbeques together are somehow running the world is just ridiculous.
     
  36. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    it's cool it's been a while for ya ;)
     
  37. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

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    Have you ever noticed that all Christian tombstones are facing east?
     
  38. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    No, but that is interesting.

    I never knew they were particularly fond of any direction.
     
  39. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

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    I found it interesting too. Perhaps it's because they were once a stranger, in a strange land. Lost in the world, got their compass oreinted and now await the arrival of the High Priest after the order of Melchezedec?

    HEAVY STUFF MAN!
     
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  40. anlgp

    anlgp ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

    god i love inside jokes
     

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