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Fitzpatrick 'excited' Dolphins took Tagovailoa, but still wants to play

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by xphinfanx, May 19, 2020.

  1. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    One of the many reasons why Tua will sit, learn, strengthen and watch.
     
  3. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He pretty much knew he wasn't the "Franchise" guy coming into this. He's a good guy for him to be sitting behind and learning from. Although he's not the "franchise" he is a really good QB with a lot of toughness that gives us a chance to win.
     
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  4. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I had mentioned recently that "mentoring" NFL QBs is not so much on the the mentor as the mentee. The mentor primarily teaches by example and it's on the mentee to be proactive in terms of asking questions and observing/absorbing. The mentor just has to be open and available to answer questions. The statement by Fitz is all that you want from your vet QB. He has to be professional and continue to prepare as the starter and he has to be willing to share his knowledge and experience when asked. I'd seen a few posts questioning Fitz as a mentor b/c Rosen hadn't seemed to develop much. IMO that's a misunderstanding of the process. If Rosen didn't progress then it's on him. He either didn't ask enough questions or if he did he didn't absorb the information.
     
  5. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    In all honesty I don't think Rosen had another opportunity toward the last half of the season so if he did learn anything from it there was no chance to show or practice it. It would be nice to see him have a fair chance with a better surrounding line and team.
     
  6. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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  7. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I watched about half of this video on Tagovailoa highlights and while they are indeed exciting, I was looking more closely. Now somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but does it seem like Tua stares down his receivers? It appears to me he rarely looks off his intended receiver.



    Certainly hope this something that Fitzpatrick can help him improve on, otherwise Tagovailoa is going to be throwing a lot of intercetions.
     
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  8. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You are not wrong.

    One thing I did notice is that Tua did not make a second read on most of these highlights... He looked and the receiver was all day open...

    I give tua credit for making great throws. I do wonder how much harder it will be for him without 3 elite receivers that are open all of the time? If you watch through the highlight package the second time and look to see how open the receiver was... It is simply a question of Tua throwing the ball where he can catch it. Make no mistake some of he throws are great... But the receivers are so wide open... Most NFL backups could make those throws.
     
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  9. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I am not going to blame the QB for not making multiple reads when their first read a star is wide open.
     
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  10. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    When you look and see ruggs has two steps on the defender you throw them the football..
     
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  11. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I have my concerns about Tua. I've mentioned them leading up to the draft and I will again sometime soon. However looking off defenders is not one of them and certainly neither is him not going through his reads. Actually, that's where he excels.
     
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  12. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Like I said in my post, correct me if I’m wrong. From the highlights I watched, it just seemed that way

    One saying I’m right
    One saying I’m wrong

    Guess we’ll find out come preseason
     
  13. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Every film break down I have seen from QBs, coaches, and whatever the other Youtubers are constantly praise him for his ability to look off defenders to the point where they say he is one of the best they have seen at it.
     
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  14. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I have seen Tua in games look off a defender and I have seen games where he does not throw to the primary target... So he definitely has the ability to quickly go to the secondary or tertiary target.

    The highlight video was pretty much all first target reads... Which is understandable when you are playing on a team with three wideouts who are all amazing first-round talent types. A lot of the time his first read is open.
     
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  15. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    Make that 3 now.
     
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  16. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Tua does have a problem with locking on.

    Using your eyes a few times does not mean it's a strength of yours. I could show you college film where John Beck used his eyes well.

    The bottom line is that most of the time he never needed to, and I cant necessarily hold that against him.

    That said, pointing to a limited number of plays where he looked off a defender doesnt mean he us great at it. That is a false narrative.

    Just because some draft "guru" who is wrong more than they are right or a random Youtuber says something doesnt make it accurate.

    Watch the film yourself and you will see that 85% of the time it's going to his initial read.

    Like i said though, it's not NECESSARILY a negative because that read was open which makes it the correct throw.
     
  17. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Most QBs will go with their first read a majority of the time. Especially if they're good at reading defenses at the line. That doesn't mean he's not good at looking off defenders. IMO Tua is excellent at it. Compared to most prospects or even most 1st round prospects he's excellent at it. I've scouted QBs for a long time and I can't recall a prospect who did it better. I have that aspect of his game above Luck or Peyton or anybody else I've ever seen at the college level.
     
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I am not going to watch the film myself. I trust quarterbacks who have played the game and others who have spent time doing so.

    It is not just one of them. It is most of them. I don't think I have watched one that hasn't talked about Tua using his eyes to look of a defender so that his guy looks wide open.
     
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  19. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Analysts all tend to say the same things about players and regurgitate eachothers views.

    I'll trust myself any day over anyone, and you should trust yourself over anyone too. If your opinion is just someone elses, the truth is you dont actually have an opinion. It's fine to listen to others, but if you dont have anything to actually weigh it against I dont see how you can blindly have faith in people.
     
  20. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Like I said it isnt necessarily an issue. I conceded those were the right throws to make based on the play happening.

    However, I also dont believe using your eyes well a few times makes you elite at it either.

    Tua is nowhere near the level of Manning in any of his skills so I dont think that is a good comparison at all.

    If Manning was an A+ prospect, Tua would be like a B- or C+.

    I respect that you actually came to your own conclusion though, and for the sake of our team I hope he IS better than I think in that area.

    To me its more of an unknown because he doesnt use his eyes consistently, but again he never had to so yeah.
     
  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    No, I shouldn't. I don't watch hours and hours and hours and hours of tape. I never played football beyond a highschool level. I am not an expert. I am at best a well-knowledged fan.

    All of the videos I have watched have showed me the same thing though. That he is great at looking people off with his eyes. In fact, a lot of times when people complain in his highlights that he is just throwing to a wide open guy, I can see how he used his eyes to freeze the safety so that his guy is wide open.

    It is not blind faith. I am not excited about Tua because of his size and his cannon of an arm. I am excited because of the way he can manipulate defenses at his young age.
     
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  22. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I brought up the whole "staring down the receiver" for the following reason(s).

    In college football, you have at best 5 or 6 NFL caliber players playing against 5 or 6 NFL caliber players. The remaining players on tierh side of the ball will never play again at a higher level. Because of the caliber of players at the college level, you can often get away with mistakes.

    At the NFL level, you have 11 NFL caliber players playing against 11 NFL caliber players. Because of that, the talent you are playing against is much better than it was in college and you aren't able to get away with the same mistake nearly as much as you could in college.

    There have been many great cornerbacks and safeties that have made many interceptions simply by watching the quarterback and those who stare down their receivers often don't see that safety come out of nowhere and pick them off. Hopefully that highlight reel of Tagovailoa isn't indicative of every pass he throws. They are just highlights, but if he has a problem staring down receivers, he's going to have a lot of interceptions.

    That was why I brought up the topic
     
  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...ns-would-start-tua-tagovailoa-if-hes-healthy/


    I agree with Bruce Arians. Obviously, since this is what i have been saying.
     
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  24. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    Haven't read the whole thread, but one obvious reason to playing Tua this season (assuming full health of course) is you need to know whether or not you're back in the QB market again in next years' draft. Yes, that is a possibility.

    That said, if I'm the HC I'd probably start Fitzy for the opener against the Pats and then just take it one day at a time. But, knowing Fitzy's Jekyll/Hyde habits and/or our W/L record, it wouldn't be too long before Tua would get his chance. Prolly by mid-season at the latest.
     
  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    So I took your challenge and after 5 minutes and 30 seconds I found 18 instances where he used his eyes to manipulate the defense.

    IMO, it reinforces everyone who I saw talk about him on how his ability to read the defense and utilize both his body and his eyes to get his receivers open is excellent.

    Yes there are some plays where it is like, "Ruggs out run that guy you are much faster than." I am not going to deny his wide receivers weren't excellent. However, it looks to me that Tua was able to take advantage of that.
     
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  26. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    It wasn’t a challenge. Far from it. It was just a question I posed.
     
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  27. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I didn't mean challenge as something adversarial. More of a fun thing to see if I see what you are seeing.
     
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  28. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    You literally said you dont watch him play, then went on to describe how great he is at something from a few highlights. Excuse me if I find that entirely invalid.
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I literally said that I do not watch hours and hours of tape.
     
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  30. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I disagree. Manning was not as good as Tua at looking off players coming out of college. (Actually I've watched film of Manning at his peak and even as a pro he made more mistakes every game than most fans realize). Manning was far better than most prospects, but Tua is at another level in that regard. He is far more consistent at it than any prospect I've ever seen. Really all of his mechanics are. The comparison that comes to mind is Brady. Brady's greatest strength was the work he put in. He showed promise in college, but in NE he was the guy who drilled his mechanics (footwork, eye discipline, etc.) arguably more than anybody else (and that was among a league full of exceptionally hard workers). And you could see it on the field. I see Tua as a college version of that work ethic. I think that from that Elite 11 camp on, Tua drilled his mechanics much like Brady did. Obviously Brady has done it for more than a decade and added experience against the pros, but Tua so far has drilled his mechanics for 3 or so years and had experience against the best in college. If he can continue to put in that kind of work at the pros then the sky is the limit. I do agree that it's not an issue coming out, but it is still something that he has to continue to improve.
     
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  31. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This is what I was talking about... Yes, there are a lot of plays where Tua just threw it to the first read. But we are talking about First-round draft pick wide receivers that are dominating college football... They are just open most of the time. When a play is called and the QB makes his read and that first option is wide open... They let the ball fly. This does not mean that Tua does not have the ability to see his second or third target and look off a safety. As has been pointed out... Just watch some film other than the highlight reels set to music on youtube and you will see he can do these things well.
     
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  32. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    You definitely see it differently than I do.

    For instance even though hes very accurate on the deep ball, his form is absolutely atrocious and will probably get his leg broken at the NFL level.

    He has a bad tendency of overcompensating for his poor arm strength by doing two things.

    1) He often has to take a gather step forward that wont be there at the NFL level on every throw.

    2) He swings his hips very wide and tends to leave his stride leg out wide.

    I rdont even really see Tua as a early round prospect, but this QB class was really really weak.

    He ran probably the most simplistic offense in football his first year so I dont see how one can really evaluate his ability to read a defense from that, there were barely any reads to begin with.

    Last year his offense was more complicated and he handed it well, but it was still a simplistic offense without very much going on. It's basically like the difference in using crayon and colored pencil.

    He hasnt had to do anything that makes me say "Wow, this guy is a franchise QB"

    I see an average starter at best and a career backup at worst.

    It honestly wont surprise me if Hurts ends up the better QB of the two. At least I can pinpoint NFL level skills in his game, even if he has a lot of flaws.
     
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  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I hope that people on here that are far more skilled at evaluation than me are right. But I'm much like Alex. I'm a big Bama fan, watch almost all their games. I wasn't wowed by Tua two years ago when I watched him. Then with all the Heisman talk and 1st pick talk this year, I was more interested in watching him, and what I'll say is, I never found myself watching games thinking to myself, "Miami HAS to draft this kid! He's amazing!"

    So, I really hope these guys like DJ/Raf/others that I really respect, are correct in their evals. It makes me feel better that these guys are excited about Tua.
     
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  34. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I hope we are right as well. I want all MIami Dolphin players to succeed.
     
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  35. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    OkAY

    I am the biggest Hurts fan on the planet... I love him more than his mother. That being said Tua is a pure pocket passer with great field vision... When you get a chance at a QB like that you do not pass on him.

    One of the reasons I was so high on Hurts here before the draft was partly because I did not think the Dolphins would have a shot at him with the 5th pick. And I was against trading up for him. So I started to focus on other places where a bargain could be had at QB in the draft and that is where Hurts came in.

    Hurts is a natural born leader... He runs like a RB... But he has the size of a middle linebacker. He is tough and strong... He has worked very hard in College on his arm and he killed it throwing at the draft.

    He does not compare to Tua when it comes to finding the third receiver or looking off safeties.

    Hurts is a more athletic Tim Tebow... One with a much better arm... and a much better throwing motion. Runs better also.

    I see what the Ravens did with Lamar Jackson and I think a team could do the same thing with Jalen Hurts.

    I was wrong about Jackson... I did not anticipate the Ravens changing the whole offense for him to succeed and to take advantage of his skill set... I saw it... and then saw Hurts killing it at Oklahoma showing he could really make a living throwing a football. So I was all on board for the Dolphins to take Hurts and change our offense around to maximise his talents as well.

    That being said I am thrilled we landed Tua. Yes his injuries scare me. But his talent is off the charts... Most talent we have had at QB since Marino and it is not even close.
     
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  36. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I hate Alabama and actively root against them. I did not expect to like Tua when I started my film review. My expectation was that he'd be a typical Alabama decent college QB looking better b/c of a great supporting cast. But his accuracy, processing speed, mechanics and eye discipline blew me away. I see people minimize some of that stuff and I think they're way off. He ran a full on NFL offense this past season. That's pretty rare in college. Even the RPO stuff that was more prominent the previous year added some NFL concepts as the season went on. That first year he had to learn a standard college offense. The complexity increased b/c Tua could handle it (and he had an NFL OC). That doesn't usually happen. I don't get the impression Alabama felt Hurts could handle an NFL offense. Many QBs struggle with offensive scheme changes. That was a common excuse for Rosen. But Tua seems to have gone through three different systems and learned them all. Dilfer called Tua a "one rep guy", meaning a guy who learned something in one rep. And he ran it so well. We're talking about historically great efficiency numbers. Even the QBs we think of as smart don't come out doing all the little things as consistently as Tua already does. The closest I can think of was Luck, but IMO Tua was more consistent than him.

    I think him being left handed throws people off on the mechanics. Left handed QBs look different, but his mechanics are excellent. His upper body and lower body so coordinated. He seems to always be in balance. When I watched him play, the guy that came to mind was Montana. IMO Montana was a great athlete, but he lacked any size, power, speed measureables that make people say "wow". That's why people always minimized all the things that Montana did great too. But Montana was a guy who elevated that system to what may have been one of the best ever teams.

    That's the stuff that impressed me b/c I don't see that in college QBs. But generally what I look for in terms of traits that translate most consistently to NFL success are accuracy and processing speed. Tua excels at those. The accuracy is probably a product of those consistent mechanics. And the processing speed is helped in part by his fast release. I saw an analysis by somebody who was comparing some college QB releases to NFL greats and they had Tua's as faster than Marino's. I'm not a guy who breaks down film to get release times down to tenths of a second, but I can say he gets the ball out very quickly.

    But the thing that might have me the most excited is what Dilfer believes about Tua's drive. We can't ever know if a prospect will put in the work when he gets to the pros or after he gets that second contract and his family is set for generations. Most every prospect that makes it to NFL is a hard worker at least relative to the average person, just like most people who reach the pinnacle of any field tend to be. But the guys who are special are the ones that have insane work ethics compared to even that group. Those 1% guys like Brady or Jerry Rice are guys you would always take on your team and guys you never bet against. You can try to glean information from anecdotes, like Tua's work to improve during the Elite 11, but you never 'know'. Dilfer is convinced that Tua is one of those 1% guys. Dilfer admits that during his career he relaxed some after his SB, but he sees Tua as one of those guys that won't relax. That's why Dilfer has repeatedly called him the best prospect he's ever coached. And that list of people he's coached would include Deshaun Watson, Kyler Murray, Trevor Lawrence, to name a few.
     
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  37. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, sorry I was a dick. It's just frustrating being a lone voice sometimes disagreeing. I respect your time, input and effort into the discussion and hope you can say you were right in the end.
     
  38. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hurts went to Oklahoma and Ran the Air Raid which is a type of west coast offense... Used in the NFL.... Hurts proved he can handle an NFL offense.
     
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  39. AGuyNamedAlex

    AGuyNamedAlex Well-Known Member

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    He did run an offense that in theory is closer to an NFL offense. That said I do think the system was far less complicated than the NFL version.

    Which is to be expected. Almost no college QB runs a true NFL level of complexity on offense. Probably none actually, though some are way closer than others.
     
  40. Etrius24

    Etrius24 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Point is Hurts was very restricted running a true RPO at Bama... He goes to Oklahoma and they expect him to step in and do what Mayfield and Murray did... No restrictions... no baby steps... Hurts took the ball and absolutely balled out. He showed he could read defenses at the line ( Not like Manning or anything... but he showed promise ) he showed he could make more than one read... (Not as good as tua... but still a very encouraging sign ) He showed that he believes in his arm... He was able to grip it and rip it at Oklahoma... and again at the combine he nailed it showing off a much stronger and more accurate arm than expected.

    In the NFL with Hurts you would be wise to look at the amazing season he put up at Oklahoma and then to incorporate as much of that into the offense you are running so that Hurts can shine and you can win.

    You know like the Ravens did with Lamar Jackson
     
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