Great to hear you weigh in. I agree about his deficiencies in terms of pure pass rush, and agree that 12 is too high for Ansah (as much as I love him). I love that he is a pure wrecking ball when it comes to surmising what is going to happen in a play and getting there a bit ahead of it, and of using his strength and leverage to be where blockers don;t want him to be in blocking schemes. That creates some chaos that=, imo, pairs well with Wake. I think he is significatnyl better than Olivier Vernon, but yes, his dividends will increase year-after-year and 2013 won'tr be the bounty of his returns for selecting him. As such, I wonder if Ireland will avoid him enbtirely, regardless of where he is available. I would feel very comfortable picking Ansah in the 20's. Where do you see his value?
Disagree about the block shedding when it comes to the pocket moving or run plays. But TOTALLY agree that the JPP comparison is wrong and imo, lazy sportwriting by media drawing an over-simplified parallell between players who were raw and athletic... but athletic in DIFFERENT ways, which the media fails to get into. CK says guys are split on Ansah as top en or second round. I fall in the middle. He's got work to do (a lot) but MAN you have a LOT to work WITH when you get a guy like Ansah. The thing is, Ansah's value is in the 20's and someone else will overdraft him. That team will get a wrecking ball over his career. I love the kid (although he's probably 40, in truth). It's making more sense for us to target Tank Carradine with our 2a... only I doubt he makes it there.
Carradine is a pass rusher going against ACC left tackles and top 25 teams on a BCS Bowl team. Ansah is playing against RT's and guards in the MAC on a team that played SDSU in the Poinsettia Bowl.
I respectfully disagree. We have the NFL's 2nd best arc running pass rusher (behind Von Miller IMO) who led the NFL with 87 pressures; therefore creating pressure isn't really our problem; our problem is not having someone to capitalize on the pressure & chaos Wake creates, which isn't taking full advantage of his potential. After rewatching every completed pass & QB scramble for positive yards, it's sickening to see how many could've been prevented just by having Ansah on the field b/c during these abundant occurrences the ability to rip, swim, bend the corner, etc aren't really needed b/c the QB's movement alters the blocking angles and opens up defenders to easily get off blocks and get into pursuit mode. Not to mention in nickel, he's a serious upgrade as an interior rusher over Odrick & Starks, and there's nothing more annoying than having a 3rd & long where the coverage is good but the QB can step up and escape the pocket for an easy first down b/c the only players in front of him are two 300+ pound defensive tackles who can't get their hands up like Ziggy can, can't keep their feet clean like Ziggy can (as they were often sharing time on the ground), and can't close on a scrambling QB like Ziggy can. Every play I highlighted in the Miami-Indy thread are plays that Ziggy has the ability to positively impact. Plus, with the spread offenses, short passing game, read option, and mobile QBs, the ability to run the arc isn't what it used to be in the day of less mobile pocket passers taking 5 & 7 step drops much more often. What Ziggy lacks in corner bending pressure & current pass rush repertoire he makes up for by everything else he does. For every sack a good speed rush guy gets by turning the corner, Ansah should match it simply by capitalizing on Wake's created pressure thanks to his elite pursuit ability, strength, and athleticism. If we didn't have Wake then I'd agree Ziggy would initially be minimized, but when Odrick, Starks, and everyone else see an abundance of pursuit opportunities to convert a sack, batted pass, or tackle for minimal gain but instead are often a step late, then there's no reason Ansah couldn't convert many of these plays, or enough to change the game. My concern is, if we opt for a starting speed rusher at end opposite Wake, not only do we weaken our run defense but we open up huge passing lanes and easy gains by mobile QBs when their rush attempt is unsuccessful and they're ridden out of play (like in the pic below). IMO Wake's arc-running pressure in base defense is more than enough to not need another speed rusher opposite him who, if isn't successful, is often taken out of the play, so there's a give and take involved regardless of going Ansah or an arc bending pass rusher. IMO Ansah offers a more complete defensive end, compliments Wake better, is a rarer type of player to find, and in nickel he's an upgrade inside; meanwhile we can still bring in a nickel edge rusher, one who can eventually take over for Wake.
WADR, So? I'm not sure I see why this matters when Wake forces a QB to move and Ansah's blocker suddenly finds himself no longer able to hold his block b/c the angle is all messed up. 87 pressures Wake had. 72 didn't result in a Cam sack. That's a lot of opportunity to clean up on some sacks if we only had someone of Ansah's athleticism, length, and outstanding pursuit ability.
Can't agree there, but I entirely understand why you'd have that position. There is simply something in the style of Ansah's play that I find more disruptive to a defense than almost any player I've seen in awhile and I think he has the raw physcial abilities to back it up. What concerns me is, he doesn't necessarily seem to be improving much technically. Can he even take coaching?
Carradine is a better pure pass rusher no doubt, but what does Tank have to do with the starting spot opposite Wake in Coyle's base D where he wouldn't be starting? He's a situational pass rusher and Wake's future heir, but that doesn't improve our base D, nor provide it the athleticism & playmaking ability it's severely lacking outside of Wake. We're leaving too many plays on the field that a Ziggy Ansah can help minimize.
Fair points and withoput the injury, Tank's a 1st rounder (he may still be, actually). Love Tank. With Ansah, that's why I was so curious about the Senior Bowl for him. I'm a little disconcerted that he sucked all week in Senior Bowl practice. His game was mixed, with some great impact plays (he seems good at that), but some easily blocked stretches too. It's moved me off of my certainty he's my favorite DE for us... but I am not about to throw this 78 inch, 270lb Ghanian baby out with the bathwater.
I disagree about not being sudden. He's very much sudden IMO. He only lacks a great first step. He doesn't shed blocks well b/c he's a neophyte at doing so, but the underlying ability to do so is tremendous as he's the best in this draft at keeping his feet clean IMO; he plays with outstanding leverage & balance, has strong hands, coordinated hands, is quick twitch, and reacts quickly, so there's no reason he shouldn't develop into a massive handful trying to block/contain once his technique develops and he's no longer needing to think so much. IMO he's borderline man-among-boys potential.
TOTALLY agree on HOW he complements Wake! Don't agree that he'd be superior to Starks inside. Randy Starks is quite good at getting inside pressure, Phin. Also, if we planned to move Ansah inside on nickel downs, who the hell is the 3rd down pass rush DE? I'm starting to realize Ansah isn't the Ansah for a three down lineman for us if even his biggest proponents are talking about moving him inside in nickel rush. So.. Tank Carradine is looking more and more appealing... except will he be ready top make an impact in 2013, coming off an injury like his? If not, Ireland may pass. Ireland needs impact this season, not in 2014 when he is unemployed if we lose too much. I still think Ansah would do more on 3rd downs than Vernon or Odrick if played at DE. Though clearly not as much as Tank Carradine. That's the compromise though in looking at who I think Ireland would be willing to take as a DE.. I think he'll want a strong-as-Samson DE who can play the run. That narrows it a lot. Ansah, Okafor (not my fave).
I agree... and was making the excuse that BYU coached him poorly... but from all accounts he didn't do a hell of a lot of improving over the week of Senior Bowl coaching with the NFL staffs either and THAT has me wondering if he will improve much technically. In the NFL he'll need better technique to handle the caliber of players he'll be facing.
I'm not. I'm sure he was being coached up at end (since he spent little time there at BYU) so he was most likely in think mode during practice in 1 on 1s, where as in the game he could put that aside and just play, which is why we saw him tear it up. Now imagine what he'll be like when he develops a pass rush repertoire, no longer needs to think, and can play in that natural, instinctive mode we in games. There's absolutely no reason he shouldn't develop a strong rip/swim move, speed to power, decent spin move, an improved bull rush, and a strong inside move (unless he's a slacker who doesn't dedicate himself). He should be capable of doing all these at a plus ability, which IMO makes up for not being an outstanding arc-bending rusher.
It'd be the rotation we currently use when Odrick moves inside (Vernon or Misi)..... but preferably Carradine or Lemonier.... or Chris's Georgia kid. There are plenty of guys better in nickel than Starks IMO.... but in base I agree- he's a great DT b/c he's well rounded (can stop the run and get some pressure). Starks wouldn't hold a candle to Ansah as a nickel inside presence IMO, not when factoring in every aspect of the game. I respectfully disagree about that being the "compromise". What about the compromise you make in base defense with Carradine that you don't with Ansah? What about the extra plays, batted passes, clogged passing lanes, sacks in pursuit, and stops for shorter gains Ansah provides at a higher level than Carradine? Isn't a batted pass the same as a sack but w/o the loss of yards? How many drives won't be extended by QBs on the run b/c Ansah stops them short of the sticks? I just think that ignoring or downplaying everything amazing Ziggy brings to the table simply b/c he isn't a great arc-running rusher is a mistake. Name me 5 270+ defensive linemen in the league who can do all the things Ziggy can but better. Then tally up all the quality arc-running rushers. If the arc-running rusher are easier to find, which they are IMO, then I personally think it makes sense to add that hard to find talent if the chance exists. and what happens in base defense when he's not running the arc? He's not where close to Ansah IMO as far as being a playmaking, base defense, asset. We still need someone to play that end spot, and that should be a bigger priority than finding another speed rusher when we already have Wake IMO. If that guy can move inside and offer us an inside pass rush in nickel, it's all the more valuable in my eyes as Odrick & Starks as nickel rushers is a liability in today's athletic, mobile QB game.
What's WADR mean?? Except that Ansah's blocker doesn't get all messed up. And if you have any sense, you double Wake and leave Ansah one on one and ask him to beat your left tackle. Which ain't happening.
Problem is and I respect your opinion, but problem is you'd be spending the twelfth overall pick on a run defender because you're getting no pass rush at all. So you can have all the raw physical ability in the world but when am I going to see a pass rush move? It's all down snap up push, fight, down snap up push fight.
I don't have any clue what you're talking about. What have you seen that makes you think Carradine is a situational rusher? And what have you seen that makes you think Ansah is a starter???? You probably haven't seen much of Tank if you're questioning the lack of playmaking ability. Sorry Todd, but that's just a baffling post.
Every time I see that abbrev I think of the comedian Dom Irrera. " your uncle is a fat, lazy, scum sucking troll for a relative...but I don't mean that in a bad way"
No no no no no no. No. Let's be absolutely clear. I am AGAINST taking Ansah at 12. Totally against it, and always have been. My feeling on Ansah is that as a guy you pick in the late first, he has the physical tools and instincts to be impactful in the run game, and against the increasing array of offenses employing mobile QBs, screens and other plays that Ansah's ability to sniff them out early can makea big difference. Where I get worried is third down. If I had my druthers I would pick an edge rusher but I have to put myself through the Jeff Ireland filter and I don't see Jeff spending even a second rounder on a guy who is a third down only proposition. That means I am trying to find a compromise player that I believe Ireland would pick, would see playing three downs, and who will still get more pressure than Jared Odrick and Olivier Vernon combined. I guess that's what this comes down to. I believe that Ansah, from an end position, would out produce Odrick/Vernon over a season in terms of TFL, sacks, hurries, QB hits and forced fumbles. Now, would another player do better playing just third down? Maybe, but as CK has pointed out, Ireland is yet to use a first rounder on a rotational guy. I don't see any compelling reason to believe that would change now. But **** no, I don't think Ansah is worth the 12th overall pick. He sure isn't a second rounder either though. At this point, I'd most like to take Banks at 12 or just trade down to the 20-something range and get value plus another second rounder.
Tanks deserves to start, but I don't think Ireland is going to put Odrick at second string in the depth chart at DT so Tank can start. ditto for Ansah though. Unless Starks leaves, the truth is, there may be no high pick at DE. And if our logic seems baffling it's because we aren't talking about what we think makes sense, we are trying to filter what we want throu how Ireland has built the team and what he'd be willing to do. Given my first choice I trade down in the first, take Tank Carradine, play Odrick and Starks where they belong. Do you see Ireland likely to do that? I don't. We are snookered by his Odrick pick, at this point, and the transition to 4-3 leaving the team finding places to use players acquired for a 3-4. p.s. - if Ezekiel Ansah shows he can take coaching and works hard on his technique, he will be a force in this league. If not, maybe not. Not every great player has a great first step.
Interesting article on Ansah, with screen caps of some plays http://nflsfuture.com/2012/12/10/film-study-making-the-case-for-byus-ezekiel-ansah-as-a-top-ten-pick/
It means "with all due respect". Didn't want the "so" comment to seem snotty. To be fair, Wake didn't have much help in the pass rush department this year yet he led the NFL in combined pressures, so I think the "doubling him" is perhaps easier said than done. Plus we rush 5 a fair amount or blitz linebackers and safeties. If Cam can lead the NFL in total pressures with Odrick, Misi, Vernon, and Shelby opposite him then I don't see why he can't maintain that level or improve upon it with a better pressure player opposite him (which Ansah is IMO). I just don't see tackles being able to maintain their blocks once the QB has gone mobile, so it'll inherently free up Ansah to enter pursuit mode IMO. The problem I noticed was the rest of our linemen not quite having the ability to capitalize on those opportunities b/c they were typically a day late and dollar short. In nickel I don't see Starks or Odrick having an edge over Ansah in the middle. At least he has the ability to stunt well and drop in coverage to mix up our pressure and confuse QBs, no?
If Ireland is loathe to supplant Odrick as the starting end, and waits until the third round to look at rush ends/olbs, I hope Corey Lemonier is still around. He would be an amazing third down DE because he is so quick off the edge that he would command a double team, like Wake. Can't double them both though.
Todd, the only way we look at Ansah is if Starks leaves, because theres no way Jeff Ireland (potentially on the hot seat this year) turns his first round pick of a couple years ago into a back-up DT. That wouldn't reflect well on Jeff.
I was actually just about to necro (if you could call it that) his and Dion Jordan's threads. I think it would be useful if these draftniks reiterated the talent of the prospects that weren't in the Senior Bowl, and I would definitely appreciate the opinions of them now that it's over. In fact, I'll do that now...
I see the type of defense we run and don't see where Carradine fits in base defense outside of Wake's spot, which I don't think he's taking, which is why I called him a temporary situational rusher until Wake begins to decline and is ready to transition to situational rusher. If we didn't have Wake I'd be calling Tank our weak side starting end. I think Ansah can start (or at least in year 2 while serving in rotation year 1) b/c he isn't a liability vs the run in base D, and because even though his pass rush repertoire/technique aren't developed yet he'll, IMO, still rack up 8+ sacks and be a more effective pass rusher than what we currently have opposite Wake b/c of his outstanding pursuit ability combined with what I perceive is a knack for stalking QBs and making plays in space. Not to mention he can limit some of the broken/busted plays that killed us this year, minimize read-option stuff, and get his hands on passes/disrupt pass lanes. If Ansah were in a defense w/o a great pass rusher like Wake causing chaos, I would drop my first year expectations of him and perhaps look at Carradine instead. I didn't say Carradine isn't a playmaker, Boomer, not in the least; I said he doesn't provide our base D the playmaking ability it needs (because he won't be on the field in base D except to give Wake a breather IMO).
I appreciate that you respect it, but I'm not so sure I know what the **** I am talking about at times. Most times. Lol.
1) I totally agree that Ansah's value to us, specifically, has a lot to do with how he will complement Wake in the role he would play. 2) Tank is good against the run. Maybe he doesn't foresee plays a second early like Ansah, but Tank is well rounded. 3) f or Ansah to play for us, I think we would need to see Paul Soliai depart, and Starks and Odrick in the middle, playing a more penetrating interior style. Not sure that would be in Dansby's best interest though.
I don't agree. I think there are plenty of snaps to go around at DT for Starks, Soliai and Odrick. After 2013, either let Odrick or Soliai walk if need be. It would be stupid IMO, to let the best one of the 3, Starks, to get away just because Ireland is worried about how others may perceive Odrick being a backup. Ansah is a DE and to me that is enough of a separate position that we shouldn't let what's happening at DT to determine what we do at DE.
"Turn your head and look at the QB. Get your damn hands up!" lol LaMichael James screen for 15 yards. Starks is dropped in coverage but he might as well sit down and rest himself for the next play, where as Ansah stops this for minimal gain. What sucks is the following play is a Wake sack, followed by a Rout stop for minus 2. If we shut down the screen we're looking at a long FG or punt rather than a 37 yarder. Read option. Keap keeps it for 6 yards. Terrible discipline & awareness. Hunter is 5 yards downfield with 6 hats still on him. Kaep runs about 10 yards before the meat of our defense picks it up. Odrick in backside pursuit is futile.
Here's Soliai trying to stop a screen on 1st & 20. He fails and it goes for a big gain. Drive results in a TD. 19 yard Gore run to our 1 yard line that Odrick doesn't have the athleticism/ability in space to stop for a loss, but Ziggy does. Following play is a TD.
Odrick on the read option. 2 yard gain rather than a TFL. Allows San Fran to run the read option for a 50 yard TD on subsequent 3rd & 5 rather than a likely 3rd & long pass that we might've stopped and got the ball back with more than 2 minutes left. 50 yard read-option TD. Bad discipline & awareness again.
