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Expect Offset Language for Dion Jordan

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by RoninFin4, May 28, 2013.

  1. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't, we just have those scenes from the show that tell me she isn't fu&$in around...lol

    And for me, I disagree with those about rookies missing camp...it's not a good thing for that upcoming season if your talking about missing more than two days..The mind will already be spinning without missing one day..
     
  2. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

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    bluff doesn't work if you don't pretend you won't budge........ Its a negotiation tactic.
    And if it has that huge of an effect, your pick sucks.
     
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  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Alrighty then
     
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    What am I disregarding?

    I think you guys are assuming a lot of stuff based on your own worries.

    Ask yourself honestly why the team would risk EVERYTHING over some minor contract language. They wouldn't. They weren't going to let it be a long hold out. There's nothing to say otherwise outside of a tiny soundbite that was more bark than bite.

    Think about it. If Ireland admonishes Dawn on camera, she would have no power in future negotiations with other entities. She was gonna play hardball, cause that's her job. Its Ireland's to override her if it gets to crazy. That's the system of checks and balances that Stringer thought he was talking about.
     
  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yes, what you say makes sense, I was just under the impression they wouldn't be budging..it doesn't make any sense, that's why I was pissed..
     
    Fin D likes this.
  6. In one of the most exclusive, competitive businesses in the world?? Uh NO!!!!
     
  7. Not the BLAME, the CREDIT!!!
     
  8. Because for the team it could mean a loss of 10-15 million in cap space over the next decade, but for the player it is a nearly non-issue. The team can't look at it as one player, they have to look at it as the entire collection of 1st rd picks over the next decade. Make an example now that you are not going to give in and the agents in following years will know what they are up against.
     
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  9. Now that I totally agree with. If you step back and understand how important this is to the team, and how irrelevant it is to the playe, combined with how much missing camp hurts the player and doesn't affect the team, you quickly start to understand this is something the team HAS to demand.
     
  10. So you think he should hold out because he thinks he isn't good enough to be on the team in 4 years?? A player willing to hold out because of off set language is saying he has no intentions of putting in enough work to become a player worth keeping. If he holds out I hope they make him re-enter the draft, I certainly don't want him on the team.
     
  11. Why do some of the posters here only see this from the team's point of view?? The better question is "why would the PLAYER risk everything" over something much less important to his future than it is to the team?? The player has 10x as much to lose, or reason not to let it drag out than the team has. Try to look at it from both sides, which is what you have to do to get the full view. You can't have tunnel vision and expect to see this accurately.
     
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Huh?

    No one lost anything and no one has held out over it for more than a couple of days since the rookie scale. This is getting blown out of proportion on both sides.

    Neither the players or clubs want a holdout over something that is not really a big deal for either. We weren't hurt. Tannehill wasn't hurt. This was a non-issue that people either too nervous about the season or too in love with the FO are making considerably more of than it actually is.
     
  13. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    Lmao I've seen it all now. What an absurd way of thinking.
     
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  14. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    A top 3 pick at DE/OLB this year, sits out all year over contract negotiations, re-enter the draft, loses millions in guaranteed money cause there's no way in those circumstances that he's top three next year. All of that because what, he wants his 3 million from Miami when he either signs a blockbuster deal in 4 years, or is a has-been that never-been and plays for the vet-min? C'mon man.
     
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  15. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Question could easily be turned right back around on the team that wasted a #3 overall on a guy and allows him to re-enter the draft all because it wants to avoid paying like 1/240th of its annual yearly salary cap in the event that they're so unhappy with the player they end up cutting him.
     
  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This thread seems overly dramatic from a couple angles. No one is re-entering the draft, nor is it seriously a likely outcome. When is the last time that even happened?

    I don't see the purpose in getting worked up over this unless Jordan misses time that he was physically capable of working in camp in.
     
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  17. But for the team they have to deal with the accumlative effect, not one single incident like the player. If it happens just one third of the time a team could be losing over 10 mil in cap space. That is where this FO has an advantage over others. They are willing to find the little things that add up over time. You say wasted a #3 overall pick, and yes I guess that is a twisted way to look at it, but the bottom line is EVERY team "waste" high picks. The draft is a crap shoot at best. The idea that a team should be willing to accept paying a player twice, even though he is no longer useful to the team is absurd. That would be like saying it would make no difference if the team guaranteed all the player contracts. It makes no sense to not demand this offset language.

    It amazes me how many on this board can't understand this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
  18. I agree that we are talking/worrying about something that might not even happen. The point of the thread is to voice an opinion on a hypothetical situation so in case it would happen, people would not blame the FO for something that is clearly the players fault.

    It doesn't matter how absurd a players demands are, there are some around here who automatically consider it a mark against the FO because the player is not in camp. A player could demand 21 virgins delivered to his house daily, to do with as he pleases, or he is going to hold out, and there are still many around here that would say the FO is at fault for not giving in.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
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  19. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    An obvious exaggeration. Miami just cut two LBers and trying to replace a top kicker to save millions against the cap. If he is good, he'll get paid, beyond what he is going to get paid.
     
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  20. Alex13

    Alex13 Welcome to the NEW Miami Club Member

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    i fixed it for you
     
  21. Triggercut

    Triggercut Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, it's the homer in me!
     
  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Whats the right thing to do in the matter, if we wanna cut him in his last year that means he was a disappointment, I'm not 100 percent where I stand at this point because of information overload, but theres two ways of looking at it i think, one, you have to take the hit on that as a front office, you drafted him, pay him for what the contract stated..or take the stand that it's important to you that he doesn't make more money that the last year of his contract stipulates, thus partnering up with his other team to meet that last years demand.

    Is that about right??
     
  23. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No way is he going to sit out the season and no way are the 'Fins going to let that happen. The salient point is it becomes an issue when he starts missing practice time in terms of days of camp in which he'd be worked into the D. Then it can start to impact the regular season and then that becomes an issue.
     
  24. Electric Boogaloo

    Electric Boogaloo Inventor of the question mark

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    I'll admit, I don't really understand why players would hold out over offset language. It seems the players want the right to make more money than their contract stipulates....and they want this right if they bust! It's also an odd conflict of interest where the player can make more money in year 4 by getting cut than by making the roster...assuming they get a second chance somewhere and ignoring the impact to their long term market value.

    one critical question though:

    How are regular contracts treated in this respect? If Dansby was guaranteed $5mm this season and we cut him for cap reasons, then he signed w Arizona for say $2mm on a one year deal....does he make $7mm this year? Probably a bad example, bc I doubt Dansby's $5mm was fully guaranteed, but you get the point. Would the Dolphins get offset for the $2mm paid by another team?
     
  25. Electric Boogaloo

    Electric Boogaloo Inventor of the question mark

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    I'll add one other thought, consider that the only players this is an issue for are the high picks....guys being paid on potential and draft status. If that player is cut in year 4, chances are that they were overpaid on their initial deal and IMO, they should not be compounding that situation by insisting on even more overpayment relative to performance delivered to their employer.
     
  26. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Jeff Ireland is a football expert. Dawn Aponte is a business, legal, and accounting expert. There is no logical reason for her to report to Jeff Ireland as opposed to Stephen Ross, just like there is no logical reason for Ireland to report to Aponte. There is nothing about Aponte's expertise that is related to football.

    Dawn Aponte's job isnt going to be decided by Ryan Tannehills performance. It will be decided by how much they hurt financially if Ryan Tannehill or Dion Jordan turn out to be busts.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  27. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The rule applies to everyone I believe, vets included.

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  28. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Moderator Staff Member Club Member

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    WAARF is now WAAJI? I'm behind the times.
     
  29. Electric Boogaloo

    Electric Boogaloo Inventor of the question mark

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    Not sure I understand, do vet contracts have offset language typically or no offset? It's got to be more complicated though, bc most vet salaries are only partially guaranteed which would seem to really muck up the works on an offset.
     
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Lol, you're just flat out making stuff up now.

    Prove she's not under Ireland. Prove the cap doesn't fall under the GM responsibilities.
     
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  31. PhinishLine

    PhinishLine Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    D just tweeted 25/8. Don't know if that's contract related.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  32. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    What exactly did I make up?

    You are the one who claimed she is Ireland's subordinate, the burden is on you to prove that. Their qualifications are obvious.


    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    You claimed she wasn't under him, why is the burden of proof not on you?

    *****EDIT*****

    I looked it up, it appears I'm wrong. She does seem to be not under him directly, after she was given a promotion recently. There's no way she wouldn't have been over ruled on the offset language if it meant not signing Tannehill though, and that over ruling would have been spearheaded by Ireland.
     
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  34. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Because there is absolutely no reason for a accounting, financial, and legal expert to be under the purview of a the person who's qualifications relate to making football decisions. Its also completely illogical for any type of large enterprise to not employ a system of checks in which the budget is set by people that are not creating the product. Jeff Ireland has no business setting his own budget.

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  35. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Not to mention that Aponte's title is EXECUTIVE vice president which inherently entails an executive position.

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  36. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    She very well could have been overruled, but it would have had to be Ross who made that decision.

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  37. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Stringer, there is every logical reason for Aponte to report to Jeffy... His major role is player acquisition. So you're saying that after Jeff and his scouting deptartment has identified a player that his underling, Philbin thinks also would be beneficial to the team and he brings him in to the facility, his medicals check out and now it comes to the money aspect. At that point, according to what you're saying, he no longer has control over whether that guy signs with us or not ?? That doesn't make much sense...

    Alternately, look at the staff directory...Jeff is listed above Aponte...that should tell you there... The bottom line is that these guys/gals all have to work together to make things happen, but there is a pecking order and Jeff is a rung higher in that order by all indications...
     
  38. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    No, Jeff Ireland cannot give whatever he wants to a player. He is given a budget and guidelines he must adhere to. That is pretty standard for any type of organization. Its analogous to, lets say Apple. The people in charge of making the next iPhone don't decide their budget. The budget is determined by the CEO. The CEO takes into account what his CFO and CTO tell him. The people making the product then have to follow those guidelines.

    In this case, Dawn Aponte likely went to Stephen Ross, made a business case as to why they should have the offset policy. Stephen Ross then took the input from Jeff Ireland regarding how the policy would affect the football side. Stephen Ross then made a decision based on the opinions everyone gave him. There are conflicting interests that need to be carefully weighed.

    But Jeff Ireland is not qualified to understand the effect offset language will have on a macro level. Him and Aponte speak different languages. Stephen Ross understands both, and he listens to both before making decisions.

    Everyone listed as an Executive essentially has a role that is separate from each other. Jeff Ireland isn't in charge of guys like Harvey Greene and Jim Rushton, even if he is listed above them. Mike Dee is listed above Ireland, but nobody believes that Mike Dee has any power over Ireland.
     
  39. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    I understand he can't give whatever he wants to a player, he is given a budget by Ross, that they likely worked on together, so that he knows what his limitations are. Aponte aids him in staying within that budget. She tells Jeff, if you let him have this, this is how it affects the overall budget, but if we don't give him that, this is how it affects. The GM, in our case, Jeff has autonomy on personnel. If he wants a player and that player takes more than his share of the budget, then it is Aponte's job to inform him of the ramifications of including or excluding certain language. No player is signed to a contract without Ireland's approval.

    In every company, there is a hierarchy, even among it's executives. There is still nothing to indicate that Aponte operates her responsibilities separate from Ireland's. Back when the divorce with Quitcells was happening, it was made clear that Jeff was the GM responsible for football operations...Hiring a coach and contract negotiations fall under that umbrella, Aponte is the cap specialist and fall under that same unbrella. If you're analogy is right, Aponte can bring in a player she wants, and negotiate a contract, with the assumption that it falls within the guidelines of the cap and sign that guy ??
     
  40. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    No, Aponte cannot bring in a player. She has 0 say over personnel, just like Jeff Ireland has 0 say over finances, accounting, and legal matters. Neither of them are qualified on those matters. Contract negotiations are not entirely football matters. They are financial, accounting, and legal matters.

    And there is video evidence that supports Dawn Aponte operating separate from Jeff Ireland. Why in the world would Jeff Ireland let Ryan Tannehill hold out for a single minute? Tannehill's offset language is worthless to Ireland. If it ever came to that, Ireland would be fired.
     
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