Expect Offset Language for Dion Jordan

"djphinfan wrote:

So you think it was just a ploy by Aponte that all three were in on it, and sooner rather than later she folds if the opposition doesn't budge off their stance?

Ryan lasted one day, he's a smart kid, we really don't know Dion and how influenced he is about his cash from his family and agents..

No. i think Aponte meant every word. I think it wasn't necessarily a mere coincidence for the call to happen when they all were in the same room with the cameras. I think they were willing to let her play hard ball for a couple of days at most.

"Fin D wrote:

Not acting. You're coming at this from the standpoint that they would let him go back to the draft. Watch it again, only this time think to yourself Dawn Aponte is a tough ass negotiator who holds things important in the contract that Ireland, Philbin and the rest of the football people don't. Basically, after she says it on the phone, think to yourself Ireland is saying to himself, 'There she goes again." and Philbin is thinking to himself, "Damn don't mess with Dawn." You do that, and that HK scene plays out completely differently.

And don't listen to Stringer. He wants them to be that hardcore in negotiations, because he personally values that trait. There is simply no way in hell, we were going to let our future QB go back into the draft over such a small thing, especially with the rookie scale in place now.

I don't value any single trait. I value a process and system of checks and balances. Jeff Ireland and Joe Philbin aren't qualified to be making those decisions, and it isn't in the teams best interest to have them make those decisions. The fact that they don't make those decisions is what I value.

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"Fin D wrote:

Not acting. You're coming at this from the standpoint that they would let him go back to the draft. Watch it again, only this time think to yourself Dawn Aponte is a tough ass negotiator who holds things important in the contract that Ireland, Philbin and the rest of the football people don't. Basically, after she says it on the phone, think to yourself Ireland is saying to himself, 'There she goes again." and Philbin is thinking to himself, "Damn don't mess with Dawn." You do that, and that HK scene plays out completely differently.

And don't listen to Stringer. He wants them to be that hardcore in negotiations, because he personally values that trait. There is simply no way in hell, we were going to let our future QB go back into the draft over such a small thing, especially with the rookie scale in place now.

The truest thing you've ever said.

"Fin D wrote:

No. i think Aponte meant every word. I think it wasn't necessarily a mere coincidence for the call to happen when they all were in the same room with the cameras. I think they were willing to let her play hard ball for a couple of days at most.

so Ireland and Philbin before camp came to the conclusion that seeing that they weren't going to come to terms before camp ( I'm sure they knew each others stance) they were gonna give Aponte a certain amount of missed training camp days to p,ay the hardball game, then vetoing it after a certain point?

"Stringer Bell wrote:

I don't value any single trait. I value a process and system of checks and balances. Jeff Ireland and Joe Philbin aren't qualified to be making those decisions, and it isn't in the teams best interest to have them make those decisions. The fact that they don't make those decisions is what I value.

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How does letting one person, Dawn Aponte, have the sole power to decide if a the teams draft picks are signed, constitute a system of checks and balances?

Stop for a second, and remember Ireland is, in fact, her boss.

Again, you're pretending there's a system in place that justifies your preferences, when there simply isn't. Think about it, for what you say to be true, then Dawn Aponte is second in command to Ross.

"djphinfan wrote:

so Ireland and Philbin before camp came to the conclusion that seeing that they weren't going to come to terms before camp ( I'm sure they knew each others stance) they were gonna give Aponte a certain amount of missed training camp days to p,ay the hardball game, then vetoing it after a certain point?

You have to let go of this cloak and dagger scenario.

Dawn didn't want to budge and purposely called Ireland when she knew the cameras were there. Ireland, is going to let Dawn do her thing for a bit, he trusts her to do her job, but knew full well if it got too far he'd step in.

Ask yourself honestly what of the 3 scenarios makes the most sense: my scenario OR they were prepared to let Tannehill go back into the draft for real OR had this incredibly complex plan that involved acting in staged events?

"Fin D wrote:

How does letting one person, Dawn Aponte, have the sole power to decide if a the teams draft picks are signed, constitute a system of checks and balances?

Stop for a second, and remember Ireland is, in fact, her boss.

Again, you're pretending there's a system in place that justifies your preferences, when there simply isn't. Think about it, for what you say to be true, then Dawn Aponte is second in command to Ross.

The decision regarding offset language was most likely made at the ownership level. The policy doesn't benefit Ireland. It only works against him. It benefits the team in a very macro sense, that Jeff Ireland will never realize.

I don't believe that Ireland is Aponte's boss. They work together, but at times their interests conflict. In this case, if the Tannehill holdout became prolonged, it likely would have escalated to Ross, who would have made a decision whether to break the team policy.

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"Stringer Bell wrote:

The decision regarding offset language was most likely made at the ownership level. The policy doesn't benefit Ireland. It only works against him. It benefits the team in a very macro sense, that Jeff Ireland will never realize.

I don't believe that Ireland is Aponte's boss. They work together, but at times their interests conflict. In this case, if the Tannehill holdout became prolonged, it likely would have escalated to Ross, who would have made a decision whether to break the team policy.

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For your scenario to be true, the GM is only in charge of scouting rookies and vets. Any player he wants can be vetoed by Aponte. That makes her second in command.

In the real world, the GM is not a short term view guy and the cap is as much as his responsibility as it is anyone else's. You're attributing the short term view of the HC to the GM, and that makes you wrong. Aponte answers to Jeff, just like the head scout answers to him. He's in charge of football that includes the coaches, the players and the cap. Aponte has the same relationship with Ireland that Philbin does, which is a very open one but they are still both subordinates to Jeff. He can hire and fire both.

It makes most sense that they had a rule in place relative to the cap and before the issue ever arose, and Aponte is the boss of the cap, he gave her some leeway to press the issue, but I wouldn't think that Aponte could send his draft pick back on her own power.however, if Ireland allowed his rookie to miss one day of camp, I think that's a mistake, your then fu&8in with the team and the mans development..

So as is, Jordan's people think we're not gonna bluff, is that the goal?...now if he does get brainwashed into thinking this just isn't fair and decides to hold out, how long does one Ireland bluff, his first round pick is already behind.?

"djphinfan wrote:

Aponte is gonna piss me off if she can't come out and make a statement on why the hell it's so important for her to be so firm in the rule, if your gonna fu&$ with our players like that you be have a strong ethical conviction as to why?

So firm?? First of all she doesn't have to explain ANYTHING to anyone. She just has to get us in good cap situations. But if you don't understand why it is so much more important to the team than the player I don't think you are trying to understand it.

Let's say the last year of our rookie's contract is 3.5 million and it happens 3 years in a row that we have to double pay a player that we cut. Since now cap can be rolled over that would be 10.5 million lost in cap space because a player is so sure that he is going to fail that he demands he won't accept the off set language. That is a pretty big deal, more to the team than the player. If this new CBA last 15 years and it happens one third of the time the team could lose between 10-15 mil in cap space.

Any player willing to go back and lose a year of his NFL career, and set himself up as a problem player who doesn't believe he is going to be on the team in 4 years, to the point that he is willing to go back into the NFL draft, I don't WANT him on the team. Let him set out and re-enter the draft. He has til the start of TC and if he can't accept not getting paid by two different teams, and wants to hold out, pull the offer off the table and move on. Cut off all relations with him.

This absolutely insane talk that Dawn and Jeff is some how hurting the team by protecting our interest is beyond absurd. Is there anyone on this board going to be so stupid as to sit here and tell us that Tannehill some how had a worse year or career because Jeff was able to force offset language?? Making good decisions that save cap is the reason we were able to spend some money to get players around RT this year. If anything the offset language HELPED Tannehill, not hurt him.

If Dawn and Jeff "buckled" to the demands of a injured DE, and remove the offset language, they both should be fired on the spot. Start the trend now with last year's and this year's first round pick and every year it will get easier. If Dion wants to hold out, LET HIM. It won't happen. If he misses a few days, or even weeks GREAT, he probably would have any way while getting better.

"Fin D wrote:

Not acting. You're coming at this from the standpoint that they would let him go back to the draft. Watch it again, only this time think to yourself Dawn Aponte is a tough ass negotiator who holds things important in the contract that Ireland, Philbin and the rest of the football people don't. Basically, after she says it on the phone, think to yourself Ireland is saying to himself, 'There she goes again." and Philbin is thinking to himself, "Damn don't mess with Dawn." You do that, and that HK scene plays out completely differently.

And don't listen to Stringer. He wants them to be that hardcore in negotiations, because he personally values that trait. There is simply no way in hell, we were going to let our future QB go back into the draft over such a small thing, especially with the rookie scale in place now.

And there is simply no way in hell that Tannehill and his agent were going to GO back into the draft over an even smaller thing for them. See it works both ways, it is a much bigger issue for the team, with much LESS to lose. A player that goes back in the draft will have to wait a year and probably lose two rounds in the draft at the very least. So you are going to tell me a player is willing to get paid a year later and roughly one third as much, just so he can MAYBE get paid twice if he turns out to be a bust?? That doesn't even make sense.

"NCFINFAN wrote:

So firm?? First of all she doesn't have to explain ANYTHING to anyone. She just has to get us in good cap situations. But if you don't understand why it is so much more important to the team than the player I don't think you are trying to understand it.

Let's say the last year of our rookie's contract is 3.5 million and it happens 3 years in a row that we have to double pay a player that we cut. Since now cap can be rolled over that would be 10.5 million lost in cap space because a player is so sure that he is going to fail that he demands he won't accept the off set language. That is a pretty big deal, more to the team than the player. If this new CBA last 15 years and it happens one third of the time the team could lose between 10-15 mil in cap space.

Any player willing to go back and lose a year of his NFL career, and set himself up as a problem player who doesn't believe he is going to be on the team in 4 years, to the point that he is willing to go back into the NFL draft, I don't WANT him on the team. Let him set out and re-enter the draft. He has til the start of TC and if he can't accept not getting paid by two different teams, and wants to hold out, pull the offer off the table and move on. Cut off all relations with him.

This absolutely insane talk that Dawn and Jeff is some how hurting the team by protecting our interest is beyond absurd. Is there anyone on this board going to be so stupid as to sit here and tell us that Tannehill some how had a worse year or career because Jeff was able to force offset language?? Making good decisions that save cap is the reason we were able to spend some money to get players around RT this year. If anything the offset language HELPED Tannehill, not hurt him.

If Dawn and Jeff "buckled" to the demands of a injured DE, and remove the offset language, they both should be fired on the spot. Start the trend now with last year's and this year's first round pick and every year it will get easier. If Dion wants to hold out, LET HIM. It won't happen. If he misses a few days, or even weeks GREAT, he probably would have any way while getting better.

Do you think there could be some issues with players not performing as well as they could in that last year, especially if they have desires of leaving?

This is one of my favorite threads ever. The thought of a guy walking away from around $15M in cash up front to re-enter the draft in the hopes of getting an extra $4M on the back end is pretty funny. It would also put him another year away from his second contract.

"djphinfan wrote:

It makes most sense that they had a rule in place relative to the cap and before the issue ever arose, and Aponte is the boss of the cap, he gave her some leeway to press the issue, but I wouldn't think that Aponte could send his draft pick back on her own power.however, if Ireland allowed his rookie to miss one day of camp, I think that's a mistake, your then fu&8in with the team and the mans development..

So as is, Jordan's people think we're not gonna bluff, is that the goal?...now if he does get brainwashed into thinking this just isn't fair and decides to hold out, how long does one Ireland bluff, his first round pick is already behind.?

They had no intention of starting Tannehill last year, don't forget. We're dealing with a rookie who already knew the playbook and one day of camp isn't going to be the difference between getting up to NFL speed or not.

It appears you really want this to be classified as a mistake, so you're finding ways for it to be one.

"Stringer Bell wrote:

The decision regarding offset language was most likely made at the ownership level. The policy doesn't benefit Ireland. It only works against him. It benefits the team in a very macro sense, that Jeff Ireland will never realize.

I don't believe that Ireland is Aponte's boss. They work together, but at times their interests conflict. In this case, if the Tannehill holdout became prolonged, it likely would have escalated to Ross, who would have made a decision whether to break the team policy.

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I've never seen anything anywhere that would indicate that Ireland, as GM does not have authority over the
cap specialist.. That wouldn't make much sense. Jeff is in charge of talent acquisition and maintaining the cap is part of the act of acquiring players. We know he has authority over philbin and his staff, what makes you think he is equal to Aponte?

"Fin D wrote:

They had no intention of starting Tannehill last year, don't forget. We're dealing with a rookie who already knew the playbook and one day of camp isn't going to be the difference between getting up to NFL speed or not.

It appears you really want this to be classified as a mistake, so you're finding ways for it to be one.

I'm worried that if Ryan Tannehill will miss a day of camp, and be allowed to do so, that the next guy might take it further..

Which side are you on with this topic?

Where do you think the dolphins stand on this issue? What are the reasons why it looks like they won't budge, I'm askin because there are other front offices giving out contracts without this language, so what is it about this language that is so Important to this staff?

The bottom line is - get the guy signed and in camp. If he misses more than a day of camp - it's a problem and the blame is on the Dolphins.

In some ways, the Dolphins FO have put more pressure on themselves after the Tannehill "win" on off-set language, they would look bad if they did not pursue and get that this year as well.

It is unfortunate because the bottom line is, in this billion dollar business, it's not going to be a lot of money given the scenarios that might play out.

It is already a disappointment that Jordan could not make it to any of the mini-camps or offseason workout. Whatever one says, he's going to be behind on the field and won't have the comfort level to jump right in at camp and show his versatility. Let's hope he is a smart kid who works hard mentally.

Ironic that our top two picks are coming into camp on injury recovery and have yet to see any off-season action.

"djphinfan wrote:

I'm worried that if Ryan Tannehill will miss a day of camp, and be allowed to do so, that the next guy might take it further..

Which side are you on with this topic?

Where do you think the dolphins stand on this issue? What are the reasons why it looks like they won't budge, I'm askin because there are other front offices giving out contracts without this language, so what is it about this language that is so Important to this staff?

I don't care about the language one way or the other. I think the FO wants it in the contract and is willing to play minor hardball. I don't think they are willing to jeopardize very much over it. I also think that playing hardball with Tannehill (a QB they badly needed) probably gets agents thinking twice about fighting them on it. Either way, its not a big enough issue on either side to risk more than a day or two of camp over.

"Fin D wrote:

I don't care about the language one way or the other. I think the FO wants it in the contract and is willing to play minor hardball. I don't think they are willing to jeopardize very much over it. I also think that playing hardball with Tannehill (a QB they badly needed) probably gets agents thinking twice about fighting them on it. Either way, its not a big enough issue on either side to risk more than a day or two of camp over.

The one big difference I see this year over last is that DJ is a guy that NEEDS this camp, even moreso than Tanny needed the camp last year. It's simply not in the players best interest to allow this to keep him from camp. Tanny actually had a bit of an edge to potentially hold out, already having intimate knowledge of the system. DJ has missed OTAs and minicamp, has more competition at his position, is coming off an injury and has not been able to work out at full bore to improve his strength because of the nature of the injury so he has every reason for this not to be an issue in keeping him away from camp, even for a day....

"Larryfinfan wrote:

The one big difference I see this year over last is that DJ is a guy that NEEDS this camp, even moreso than Tanny needed the camp last year. It's simply not in the players best interest to allow this to keep him from camp. Tanny actually had a bit of an edge to potentially hold out, already having intimate knowledge of the system. DJ has missed OTAs and minicamp, has more competition at his position, is coming off an injury and has not been able to work out at full bore to improve his strength because of the nature of the injury so he has every reason for this not to be an issue in keeping him away from camp, even for a day....

I honestly don't think a day or two of camp is make or break for any player. Look at Hartline last year. Sure he was a vet, but it was brand new offense, with a brand new QB and coaches. He missed almost all of camp and was fine. I think a rookie can miss a day or two and be alright.

Let's see how this plays out. As I said long ago there are factors that make Dion Jordan harder to get into camp than Ryan Tannehill, so long as the Dolphins continue to take up this "no mercy" principle on the issue of offset language...but that doesn't mean it'll drag out. It's such a stupid and insignificant thing to fight for that either side could just say "fvck it" at any point.

"Fin D wrote:

I honestly don't think a day or two of camp is make or break for any player. Look at Hartline last year. Sure he was a vet, but it was brand new offense, with a brand new QB and coaches. He missed almost all of camp and was fine. I think a rookie can miss a day or two and be alright.

I didn't mean that a day or so would hurt him necessarily, but I think HE should feel that way...

"Fin D wrote:

I don't care about the language one way or the other. I think the FO wants it in the contract and is willing to play minor hardball. I don't think they are willing to jeopardize very much over it. I also think that playing hardball with Tannehill (a QB they badly needed) probably gets agents thinking twice about fighting them on it. Either way, its not a big enough issue on either side to risk more than a day or two of camp over.

Why do they want it in the contract so bad as to justify a first round pick missing critical camp time?, you seem to not look past the situation going more than 1 day, I'm trying to figure out why it's so worth it to them to sacrifice critical camp time for their prize possession..

"djphinfan wrote:

Why do they want it in the contract so bad as to justify a first round pick missing critical camp time?, you seem to not look past the situation going more than 1 day, I'm trying to figure out why it's so worth it to them to sacrifice critical camp time for their prize possession..

because 1 or 2 days isn't hypercritical?

"unluckyluciano wrote:

because 1 or 2 days isn't hypercritical?

But luck, how do we know that's where the buck stops?, they were obviously ready to go to day two with their rookie Qb until he caved?