I don't think it is nearly as "either/or" as you make it out to be, nor do I think Ireland shares your view of the GM's role. I think he sees the GM's role as to acquire talent to help the HC achieve his vision and goals for the team. The HC's views and opinions are critical, especially when talking about the QB position and a HC who is a former OC hired largely on the basis of the prolific passing offense he just presided over. I think that is how Ireland views things because I see big differences in the kind of players we acquired when Ireland/Parcells/Sparano first came here, to the kind he acquired when Parcells left and Sparano started talking nonstop about chunk yardage, to the kind he acquired (and traded) after Philbin got here. And I share his view of the GM's role. I don't see him as a monarch who is building a team in his image, everyone else be damned, but rather as a "partner" with the coaches to put together a team that fits into what the coaches want to do. I obviously don't know the details about Ireland's thought process. On a 100 point scale, here is how I viewed the major QB prospects in the draft last year: Luck -- 95 Griffin -- 93 Wilson -- 91 Tannehill -- 90 Weeden -- 88 (90 on talent, but docked a few points for age) Luck was unattainable. RG might have been attainable, but the Skins had more to offer and a Dolphin deal would have involved giving up a good bit more than any team has ever given up for any player, let alone an unproven rookie with a playing style that creates some durability concerns. I saw them as being ahead of Wilson as prospects not due to any real deficiencies in Wilson, but just because they were pretty extraordinary prospects and it was pretty clear Wilson would be available in the 2nd round. I had Tanny a little bit behind Wilson, but not by that much. Not a big enough gap that I would ignore the wishes of my new HC and an OC who had worked with Tanny for 4 years, had coached HOF-level QBs in the NFL and are telling me Tanny is a franchise QB. Not even close.
those are good points, I guess the gap would make the difference in whether or not to follow the coaches decision..
Also Fineas, this is a thread to evaluate Ireland...missing on CKap with that kind of value he presented is a big miss on his part.
I absoultely was sold on Dwayne Allen, one of the surest evaluations i had going into this last draft, Ireland should of went up in the third round to get him, he took Egnew in the same round, so for him to not see a major difference in Dwayne and Egnews game is a miss for him in the evaluation..move up to get the future probowler..
I guess when he was coming out it was to early to say he was gonna be a really good NFL Qb...I heard the same stuff then.
I'm obviously not playing the same game you are..The discrepancy between what we've seen and not seen out of both players is a lot bigger than 15 slots in the third round.. He wanted a tight end, he should of went after the star potential player..The guy was a freakin steal dropping to the third.. If your targeting a position, and arguably the best player at his position drops to the third round, a polished player, you better do something to get him.
Well imo, we have two years of data to figure out whether this guy can really identify talent, our future depends on making a good decision..just puttin the good and bad out there.. The good..how the hell did Ireland sign a top 5 def talent in the league for peanuts.
I was saying more that there's no way anyone can say Dwayne Allen will be a probowler yet. Very early for CKap also.
I repeat..major misses on both players, if you wanna wait and give it some sort of imaginary timeline before you evaluate anything, when there's plenty of professional film on both players, then that's cool for y'all.. This thread is to evaluate Ireland, the past two years for me, so we at least know, and can be honest about how we feel with Ireland moving forward.... you wanna close it and revisit it in three years? we accomplish nothing.. GMs should be held accountable for players they missed on..
Deej, how is it a "major miss" on Kaep? It sounds like you're disappointed we have the NFL's best center and a QB as good or better than Kaep from our past two 1st rounders. Plus it's not like Kaep was considered a consensus 1st rounder who we passed on only to see him drafted a couple picks later. No GM would've risked him at #15. If GMs need to be held accountable for missing on Dwayne Allen the way you're emphasizing, then you're talking about 31 GMs. Plus he was the 1st pick of the 3rd round. I have a hard time seeing us trading up our second 3rd into the end of the 2nd to take him. Plus, you still need a partner, and if you look at the picks & teams before Allen's #64 spot, those teams might not have wanted to trade back to mid 3rd round and pass on Reuben Randle (#63, Giants, who just lost Manningham), LaMichael James (61, Niners), Keleche Osemele (60, Ravens, starting RT), and the Patriots at 62 probably wouldn't have dealt with us.
We don't know which player is a star player. You don't know that. I don't know that. Egnew could be the steal for all we know. To act like you know now is arrogant.
Would anyone argue that boyh the 08 and the 09 drafts they were largley unsucessfull. The 2010 draft looks mediocre for them. Thats 3 bad drafts under him and the last two are still too soon to annoint or codem the picks taken.
Remember, the Dolphins were picking at 15. Was CKap such a tremendous value at 15? I know you love him and may think so and may have thought so back then, but I don't recall anybody in the "draft industry" projecting CKap to go as high as 15 or suggesting he should. I know some people argue it is irrelevant that nobody else in the NFL thought he was worth the No. 15 pick, but I think that is silly. Ireland should be judged in comparison to other GMs, not based on 20/20 hindsight.
I don't see what you see in Dwayne Allen. He's a good player, but not special. He's been productive because he plays on a team whoe passing game uses the TE a lot and who has a QB who has always used the TE a lot. Egnew is two inches taller and a lot faster and more explosive athletically. And it's not like Allen was much more productive in college either.
Why should he judged in comparisson to other GMs and not hudged based on his own merits? If all the other GMs jump off a bridge, you expect him to do it too??? BTW that bell style grading of him cuts both ways because you can also compare him to GMs that have made really great moves and say he is a failure for not being in that group. I perfer to judge him on the deals he has made here over the past 5 years. Overall I would say his results have been mediocre to poor.
Huh? For all you know a great GM hits on a consistent 30% of his picks. If you aren't comparing him to other GMs you might think 35% is horrible, when it would be amazing.
He is judged on his own merits as compared to the other people that do the same job. There are only 32 NFL GMs in the world. It is a hard job to get filled by very qualified people. If he does a better job of it than most, that seems relevant to me. The bridge analogy is silly. But I think I understand what you are getting at. And no, I don't hold it against a GM for passing on Tom Brady because everyone passed on Tom Brady. Not once, but multiple times. I'm not sure whose "really great" moves you are talking about. I'd say signing Cam Wake was a really great move. Wouldn't you? And I don't want to hear the nonsense that it wasn't great because everyone knew about him and what he did in Canada. We got him on a sweetheard deal without spending any draft picks to do it. Every other team in the NFL had the same opportunity and they didn't get it done. And virtually all of the "great moves" are for guys that everyone knows about and who did some great things in college. The universe of great moves is not limited to players who literally came out of nowhere that nobody knew about. If it was, there'd be few, if any, great moves. Roy Hobbs was a fictional character and didn't play football.
You don't think the team has improved from the 1-15 team he inhereited when he got here? You don't think it has improved from last year?
Are you saying he is so stupid as to think that the W-L record is purely attributable to the GM and has nothing to do with coaching, injuries, etc. I don't know him, but I am sure he is much smarter than that.
I'm sure he does. I'm sure you do to. The W-L record is as good of an indicator of a GM's prowess as SB wins is an indicator of Marino's prowess as a QB.
I do think the team is better then the 2007 roster. I think he has had some sucess here, Wake being one of them as well as some failures here, like Vonte. It has been a very slow process moving foward. Of course I want to see more wins from each season but at the very least I want to see improved play. His sucess here in those terms have been very limited. I dont think he is the worst GM. I would grade him as slightly below average like a C- or a D+.
In order to say he is below average you would have to compare him to the other GMs, which you indicated you don't think is important. Have you done that?
If you are going to say someone is below average at something, you'd need to know what average was. In this case, by your admission, you can't possibly know what average is because to do that, you'd have to compare him against an average GM.
What the consensus believes is irrelevant (russell wilson, Kap, Allen) Yes all 32 GMs made a mistake, especially ones in need of a Qb and a tight end.I'm sure all would admit it at this point. I'm rooting for Tannehill and eggnog to make those mistakes go away.
It's not arrogance, it comes from seeing what you need to see in the payer in college, and seeing it translate to the pro game at a hi level.. To be humble I won't comment anymore on Allen until the end of next year.
When I say below average it is the arributary standard I have in my mind of what I would consider reasonable progress given the circumstances. It is not a comparisson of him against other GMs. It is my subjective opinion of his accomplishments during his tenure in Miami. 2008 draft was a largley unsucessfull one 2009 draft was equally unsucessfull 2010 draft looks a little better then the past 2 but far from a homerun draft For the amount of resources he has invested in the O-Line, secondary, WR and QB (questionable with RT) He has not gotten adequate results. His best accomplishment is our Defense front 7 and he deserves credit for that. RB and TE he has had OK results with considering how little we really invested in those spots compared to the production we have gotten. Carpenter is an OK kicker but no better then what we had in Feely. I wont call it a fail but it wasnt a sucess either. Overall I grade those results as mediocre and maybe in the end his approach will payoff, kinda like the tortoise vrs the hare story. Slow and steady wins the race. Right now Im not losing too much sleep over him staying or going.
Where is your discernment in player evaluation?? Players display different traits that can impact the game..Allen has shown on the field that his third round selection was a steal for Indy, Egnew has shown us nothing, that's a pretty large difference in their value,.if you want to be patient because he's bigger and faster, ok, I see your point, you never know, but football payers are discernible based on their talent to play the game, not how fast and big they are..I had Egnew as the # 3 tight end coming out, but the difference was large then, and so far has proven such.
Again, I just don't see anything special in Allen. He's just a guy. Not a bad player, but not an impact player. Egnew hasn't been given an opportunity to show anything. When given one, maybe he will and maybe he won't. But as I said, I've seen too many good players underutilized over the years to just assume lack of utilization means the guy can't play. To my previous list of Wake, RJones, YBell and LMiller, I'd also add Wes Welker and Marcus Thigpen. We'll never really know, but I'd be willing to bet that Wes Welker could have done virtually everything he has been doing for the last 5-6 years that first year in Miami when he didn't really even see the field on offense. No, he wouldn't have had the stats he has with Brady, but qualitatively I think he could have done the same things. I think Marcus Thigpen is a badly underused resource on offense too. I'm not vouching for Egnew. I never watched a full game of him in college and just saw some highlights. But he was more productive than Allen in college in somewhat the same way that Allen has been more productive in the NFL so far. They were on different teams and were used differently. Athletically, Egnew has everything you'd want in a TE. He may not know how to use it all on the field yet, but he has it. While Egnew has the speed of a big WR (4.6), Allen has the speed of a small DT or OG (4.9). That doesn't make Egnew a better player necessarily, but it is a pretty big factor that could easily have caused someone to think he'd be better suited as a receiving TE.
Ok, I understand where you're coming from. Question though, do you think Ireland drafts the players he does regardless of the coach and scheme? For example, if Philbin had been the coach instead of Sparano following Parcells blueprint, do you think Henne is drafted?
From 2001 - 2010, the best drafting teams were NE, Baltimore, San Diego, and the Giants... The worst were Detroit, Tampa Bay, and Washington. Despite their excellent drafts, San Diego has suffered poor coaching and largely wasted their very good drafts. Only NE and NYG have won Super Bowls from these spans. Balt won theirs prior to this and hasn't won another. SD hasn't been in a SB since the 90s. During this same span, the Dolphins were atrocious under Saban and Mueller. Wanny actually had several probowlers in Bell, Chambers, and Ogunleye, but too many Eddie Moore types. Following him, we hit rock bottom with Saban playing GM and HC (only Brown), then Mueller and Cameron (Soilia). Ireland and Sparano were hit and miss, drafting for the heavy run first and Wild Cat type offenses Sparano wanted, but were in fact better drafters trying to support a poor offensive philosophy. Hartline and Bess are solid players, but not spectatular. Pouncey is solid and should be a probowler. The same with Reshad Jones. We are still evaluating Ireland and Philbin, but so far this has been a very good draft with instant contributions from Tannehill, Martin, Vernon, and Miller. Matthews has been playing the past couple as well. Egnew may still contribute this season, or in the future. Drafted Pro Bowlers since 2001: 6 - Bell, Brown, Carpenter, Chambers, Long, and Ogunleye Best shot in the dark Pick: S Yeremiah Bell (6th round, 2003) Worst ranked Pick: QB Pat White (2nd round, 2009)
