Erik Frenz: Tannehill emerging from '12 rookie pack

He's not going to say what he did. So, you think he's going to say he's fast and can make big plays downfield, but isn't going to do anything to better prepare for that player?

 

It was proven wrong based on how the Browns use Haden overall. He is NOT exclusively the LEFT CB, as you said he is. He plays either side depending on where the opponent's most dangerous WR is lined up. I suppose you would have us believe that for the Dolphins only, they changed this. That makes no sense to any logical observer.

 

Cleveland has Joe Haden play whoever they think is bound to beat them deep. It's been that way since they drafted him. Their SS (Ward) can't cover, and they're in dire need of a decent FS. They put Haden on an island all the time. He's that good and they're that desperate.

That said, I also don't see Wallace command a lot of double coverages or deep safeties. I don't necessarily attribute that to Wallace, though. If I were playing us, I wouldn't double cover Wallace deep either. I'd bring another guy to make sure Tannehill won't have the time to throw (or complete) the deep ball. Give me a decent OL and we'll see how much double coverage Mike Wallace commands.

 

by what source? by ALLLLL the various NFL depth charts that use left corner and right corner as the defensive template for EVERY team?

I figured you'd try to weaselly pursue that route. I basically set you up for the ensuing embarrassment.














Care to do the math for us and say what it means to the other 10 guys when 2 defenders have to be preoccupied with 1 player? Can the defense walk out an a 12th defender to even the matchup? LOL.

Owned.

 

I never said he is exclusively a LCB. I said the fact he covered Wallace doesn't indicate any special adjustment by them or any special Wallace Effect.

 

Yeah, I figured you'd pull out that stuff on CJ. That is very rare. Extraordinarily rare. And CJ may well be the best WR in NFL history. Tell me when you have ever seen that done on Mike Wallace. Certainly not this year.

 

ONOZ what a travesty against Wallace that NE is showing blitz on 3rd & short when they have a chance to push us back into less desirable FG range.

 

Yeah, it's just one play and I posted it mainly to make a joke. But it is not all that common to have the deep safety only 3 yards off the LOS. And even a sack wouldn't likely have moved us out of FG range or even made it an especially difficult FG. So try to explain it all you like, it certainly doesn't show any great respect for Wallace. I'm not saying it shows less respect than they might have for most other receivers, I'm just saying they are showing him no more respect than they show other receivers.


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Well, here's what you said:

"What a joke. Wallace was on the right side all game. Haden is the LCB. So yeah, the LCB lines up on the WR who lines up on the right side of the offense. And they were doing nothing exotic at all. Much of the time there wasn't even safety help on that side."

It's not coincidence- Haden lines up against the best opposing WR, everyone who plays Fanduel or something similar knows this. So the bottom line is that Haden matched up with Wallace because it was #1 CB against #1 WR, bottom line, and that is an adjustment, not a coinkydinky as you indicate.

And Haden has the speed to match up with Wallace, although Wallace is faster. Seriously, the fact that you link Haden's combine 40 time to his actual speed indicates that you really haven't watched him play much, because he really is quite fast.

Here. at 1:28:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3-vKVByQwo

When he plays, if you actually watch him play, you'll notice the speed and the skill that makes him one of the top CBs in the league. Forget about the combine 40 time of 4.52, that was an aberration and is not indicative of Haden's true speed.

Here's an article that provides detail as to how Haden regularly covers the opponents' top WRs and how successful he is at it, so to blow him off as just "some guy" because he ran a 4.52 at the combine is short sighted and a pretty good example of how you can totally whiff on an issue if you rely on just a stat as opposed to actually watching the games be played. Haden is not only good, he's excellent. An you should know that if you're going to use his skill level to judge Wallace or any other WR that he faces.

"We've all heard the jokes which start out with "Two thirds of the Earth is covered by water, and the rest is covered by :::insert favorite cornerback here:::" Except we may have actually found a situation where it really does apply.

There is nothing more irritating than seeing the team of one of your players score in the 40s, but you find out the guy you owned barely contributed anything. Case in point: A.J. Green having just seven receiving yards yesterday. The reason for the low production? Two words: Joe Haden. Haden is good. Like, really good. Before shutting down Green completely yesterday, check out some other highlights of Haden's handiwork this year in the box to your right.

Wanna know how many TD passes Haden has allowed this year to a player he was covering? One. It came in Week 7 against Jordy Nelson when the entire Browns defense decided to take the day off in a lackluster 31-13 loss. Considering the names on the list, that stat is nothing short of astounding."

http://www.nfl.com/fantasyfootball/...t-your-wrs-against-joe-haden-at-your-own-risk

 

If nothing else we know Wallave impacts the game by taking their best corner off Hartline. Last year that is what Hartline saw most often last season.

 

LULZ. It's not "very rare". You should just stop, dude. Seriously. Calvin's elite possession ability commands extra attention at the LOS just as Wallace's elite deep ability commands extra attention over the top. Elite ability in any area of the game commands more attention, and only a moron would argue that Wallace isn't one of the most dangerous deep threats in the game. Taking away the threat of the game-changing, chunk yardage play is so important to defensive coordinators that our very own Kevin Coyle preferred to give up 3 points before halftime against Carolina than to let the Panthers receivers get behind coverage for a big play.

Now of course you can't witness this attention before the snap with Wallace like you can with CJ b/c it defies everything to bring guys up to the LOS against Wallace when you're trying to prevent him from getting behind coverage. A safety ignoring Hartline and immediately taking a step Wallace's way is no different than CJ getting doubled at the line. Both examples result in an opportunity for others to make a play, Hartline being the one in this case as he's got no safety over the top to worry about. And even IF it hypothetically happened only a few times a game [which is an understatement] those are a few EXTRA times per game that advantages are created for the rest of the offense to capitalize on.

Now go ahead and continue moving the goal posts even further.

 

And yet Hartline was as good last year as he is this year. Last I checked his 2012 receiver rating was almost identical to his 2013 receiver rating, both of which are much higher than Wallace's.


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Actually I forget the number but his % of targets caught is up something like 4%. That sounds small but is actually massive

 

This is 100%, pure, unadulterated nonsense. What those CJ photos depict is exceedingly rare. Virtually no other receiver gets or has gotten that kind of attention. Wallace certainly does not. Wallace does not get extra attention over the top. You have shown no evidence to the contrary.


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That seems to depend on the source. According to PFF his catch % is up 0.4%, which is minuscule. Certainly far from statistically significant. And to the extent is is anything other than statistical noise, it is more likely due to Tannehill's improvement than any Wallace effect. Unless you think Tannehill hasn't improved at all since last year.


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Chudzinski specifically said if you pay too much attention to Wallace, Hartline & Gibson can beat you for it.
What, do you think he's inferring that "too much attention" is merely accidental?!! "Whups, we didn't mean to have the safety go Wallace's way after the snap. He just fell down and happened to roll a few yards that way." GTHO here. It doesn't take a mensa member to understand Chudzinski is saying Wallace commands extra attention and that this extra attention creates opportunities for others. He didn't say that about Hartline; he didn't say it about Gibson; he said it about WALLACE. But I guess that's just b/c he believes in that old wives' tale, right?

 

Here's a good breakdown of how the Ravens D played Wallace earlier this year:

"What happens after you beat someone deep? You get respect. Ravens are in man coverage but look at the cushion that Wallace gets even at the 15 yard line. Wallace is running a quick out route."

"Here is another play where the Ravens are playing Cover-1 Man and Wallace gets a big cushion at the bottom of the screen. Wallace has a short hitch route on this play so he doesn't even need to close on CB at all."

"When Wallace breaks on his hitch route, he has plenty of room because of the respect for his speed."

http://www.thephinsider.com/2013/10/9/4819110/hazards-huddle-mike-wallace-vs-ravens

 

blah blah blah agenda blah blah blah. Last I checked Hartline is as productive and with 4 times as many touchdowns this year as he was last year with just Bess & Fasano eating into the pie. But math, who cares.

 

Which touchdown this year can be attributed to Wallace?

I do not take an extreme view, however Tannehill's better quarterback play has way more to do with Hartline's increase in touchdowns than having Wallace.

 

You said: "Haden is good. He's also their LCB. Wallace played on the right side all day. LCB covers WR on right side." So you did not use the word "exclusively". The way you said it inferred Haden covered Wallace only because Wallace lined up at RWR. He is not their LCB. He is their CB on either side depending on where the most dangerous opposing WR lines up. This has been shown by how he lines up in other games.

 

Tannehill can throw the deep ball better. Wallace can fight harder for the poor throws.

Those are two truths no matter what anyone says, my mind can't be changed on either fact.

All this arguing is basically baloney that has been over complicated. At the end of the day we need better production on both ends.

 

Truly bizarre. If that is what he said then he is saying don't pay too much attention to Wallace. If you do guys like Hartline and Ginson will burn you. That's hardly a ringing endorsement for Wallace and pretty much confirms they weren't going to go crazy worrying about Wallace. Which they didn't.


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Thank you for acknowledging that I did not say exclusively. Nor did I infer it. All I was saying is that you can't draw conclusions that Cleveland was taking special steps to deal with Wallace by the fact he was covered by Haden. And he does usually play LCB. They may move him
For some match ups but don't always.


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This. There are only 4 of them so it's hardly a Herculean task. Which ones did Wallace affect and how did he enable Hartline to score when Hartline otherwise wouldn't have?


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The play just last week where Clay was wide open in the flat for a TD. I think 3 or 4 Steeler defenders had an eye on Wallace. Albeit the reason Clay was so wide open.
Wallace does command attention whether it be Hartline getting one on one or freeing up someone else.

freeze this at the 44 second mark and watch the attention Wallace gets on the TD.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-...94577/Week-14-Dolphins-vs-Steelers-highlights

 

When you read the article and look at the photos those are just 7 yard cushions. Nothing even remotely unusual about that. I have posted numerous instances of Hartline getting bigger cushions than that in this and other threads. A 7 yard cushion is not some kind of proof that the defense is living in fear of Mike Wallace. Indeed, the article shows numerous plays where they gave much smaller cushions.


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Embarrassing. Now you're just trolling.

 

Wallace had no impact on that play. The LB who was supposed to pick up Clay bit on the play fake and Clay's delayed release left him wide open. Wallace was covered by 1 CB and ran straight toward the S. Granted, the S did not run away from him but no S is going to run away from a WR running right to him.


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Just ridiculous. Let's reverse the names. So you think that if a coach said "if you pay too much attention to Hartline, Mike Wallace will make you pay," you think the coach is saying that Hartline is awesome and Wallace is an afterthought? Truly bizarre.


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FINEAS,

Couple simple questions. What's the safety doing here? Is he playing honestly?
...and, if Wallace were to the top and Hartline at the bottom, would the safety still be breaking to his left at the snap?

 

This is getting ridiculous. What Chudzinski said as per Wallace:

On Dolphins WR Mike Wallace and how he puts pressure on defense:

"He has rare speed. He can run by and get behind guys. It's amazing how he can do that. He is always a big-play threat out there. Everybody knows about his speed, but he can run routes as well and catch the ball. He's a real playmaker and a guy that you have to account for."

On Dolphins WRs Brian Hartline and Brandon Gibson:

"They're really good football players. They're good route runners. They're dependable in clutch time. Both of them make great plays. If you're looking too much at Wallace, these two guys can really hurt you. It's a challenge with all three of them out there."

High praise for Wallace, and then he said that if you focus too much on him the other two WRs can hurt you- pretty typical stuff. But of course you'll focus on the second paragraph and minimalize what was said in the first.

 

LMAO, what's ridiculous is trying to reverse the names..... followed by more of your repetitive hyperbole.

No coach would say that b/c no coach is worried about paying Hartline enough attention in the first place, but yeah, if Hartline were hypothetically the most dangerous receiver on the team and a coach referenced how giving him too much attention can create opportunities for others, I'd smartly realize it's a compliment to Hartline.

If Chudzinski had meant to say "you should pay extra attention to Hartline & Gibson b/c Wallace needs little attention" like you're foolishly suggesting, then that's what he would've said. Coaches make the "too much attention" reference about players that they actually have to be more concerned about. Only a nitwit would think it means to pay even less attention to the player.

 

I'd obviously have to watch the video to really answer that. But from the still photo it looks like the S is aligned a little more to Hartline's side, ie, to the left of the left hash. He's clearly covering the deep zone and the center of that deep zone is likely right in the middle of the field, which calls for him to move in that direction. There are two receivers on that side, as compared to one on Hartline's side, so that may or may not be influencing his movement. If you are asking me to read his mind and tell you what he is thinking, then that's just ridiculous.


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Lol, nice.

 

For his sake I hope he is trolling b/c the alternative is so much worse. I'd be embarrassed to know fans from other teams are reading such massive nonsense. Rest of the country would laugh their *** off to hear a Miami fan suggest one of the most respected and dangerous deep threats in the game doesn't command extra attention and doesn't create better opportunities for others than his predecessor Davone Bess.

 

is the safety turning his back to Hartline at the snap, yes or no?

 

That was more of a good play design than a desire to stop Wallace. Also The linebacker went to the runningback instead of Clay.

 

One can't say from a still photo. But logic says no. He is clearly playing zone. The notion that he is running away from Hartline and to Wallace is inconsistent with the whole concept of zone defense. In zone, you are covering an area and not a man. A deep safety playing zone does not leave his zone at the snap to cover a specific receiver. Doesn't matter who the receiver is.

What's the time, down and distance for that play? I'll look at the video when I get a chance.


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You know this is probably one of the dumbest threads ever…

I am getting dumber by the minute just reading it...

 

He's clearly playing zone? The Safety is running away from Hartline, his back turned, knees up, pumping his legs. That leaves Hartline one on one with the CB, isolated. What more do you want to see, maybe the Safety holding up a sign, saying Guys, I'm coming over to the other side"? Three defenders covering Hartline and the TD, looks like Charles Clay. The Safety on the move would make four defenders covering Wallace and Clay, Hartline 1 on 1 with a CB. How you get "clearly playing zone" out of that is beyond me. Put down the stat sheet, watch more football.