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Early first round Phins' picks from some pundits:

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Sceeto, Feb 24, 2018.

  1. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Walter, being a life long Dolphins fan since 1972, there are few here who have endured as many heartbreaks as I have over the decades so once again, in this post responding to yours and echoing what I've said many times over already...

    Adam Gase came into Miami in 2016...a first time head coach and took a team that was 6-10 the previous year, with virtually the same roster from 2015 and finished the season 10-6...including a 6 game winning streak and unfortunately having to play the last 3 regular season games with the backup quarterback under center and we STILL went to the playoffs.

    2017 was the season from hell, with everything that could go wrong, going wrong. A schedule that had us travelling 12,000 miles in the first 5 games of the season, losing our starting quarterback, a catastrophic hurricane that not only caused the postponement of our first game and the loss of our bye, but the distraction of players and team staff having to worry about their families in the aftermath of said hurricane...all while still trying to do their job...the signing of a retired quarterback which made sense on paper, but didn't ever pan out as he never truly un-retired...an offensive line that played so poorly due to its coach being a strung coke head.

    The fact that we won 6 games last season is a miracle in itself. I'm actually quite confident we're going to win 10 games next season and for someone whose been through as many heartaches as I have since 1972 that in itself, says something.
     
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  2. Berezo

    Berezo Well-Known Member

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    I really want it to be the UGA LB Smith. We are clueless at linebacker right now...
     
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  3. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member

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    Was sittin on the 45 yd line about 60 rows up when Joe Auer ran back our very first touch of the ball. think it was 66 ?
    We had some bad years following with Mr Wilson and by 72 we had developed a strong team thanks to Mr Don Shula. Didn't take him to long either for he knew what he was doing. Different mind set to where the excuses you lay out today, Zonk, Merc. Marks Bros. those guys would have laughed at. or shula would have Kicked their azz..

    .
    I wasn't even looking for playoffs but rather the wisdom of a new head coach in touch with what we had and realizing the huge non subtle need to rebuild our team.... And the importance of the OL didn't seem to be in his workbook and after 4-5 games in realized that he was knee deep in doo doo with out a way out...That IMO was a sign... Hey he's our coach now for another year at least so Im hoping he's learned alot in the 2 years and builds a team for future success a year or 2 or 3 down the road...


    Curious, RT goes down in the pre-season would you be for picking up Cutler again now you've witnessed what he brings to the table...

    Our difference is more the level of standards we hold people accountable. Friggin 10-6 just doesn't do it for me...
     
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  4. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Smith is overrated. He is not the answer. Especially not as a Sam linebacker in our wide nine defense which is where we need him. He will get swallowed up by blockers.

    Only LB I think is worth taking at 11 is Tremeaine Edmunds.
     
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  5. Phinsfan92

    Phinsfan92 Member

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    If he’s not there at 11, what about a trade down and grabbing Leighton Vander Esch
     
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  6. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I like Esch and I would love a trade down if Nelson or Edmunds are not there at 11. That is a lot better idea than picking Smith at 11.
     
  7. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    and wrong.
     
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  8. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    My issue is Gase thinks he is smart, but I am not sure how smart he really is. Certainly has a big ego.
     
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  9. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    Being the smartest man in the room is a good thing. Thinking you are is a disaster.
     
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  10. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    That' the guy I like after edmunds
     
  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Peyton manning called him a genius on national tv.
     
  12. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member

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    Oh, than that Must be true, said it on TV, what CNN ? ...

    Personally I haven't seen the genius part in fact seen more potential confusion and head scratching than Genius these last two seasons. Maybe he is good with coaching QB's but Head Coach is still a major question IMO

    I'll make it simple, Gase builds a solid and formidable OL this year he gets a pass. If NOT and doesn't see the value and ignores this basic football 101 reality, ..I'm done with him.
    The opportunity to fix this 20 year problem is jumping out at us with Tremendous opportunities...blow it and IMO, IT SAYS IT ALL.....
     
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  13. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    He's really NOT overrated.
     
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  14. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Looks like he'll become a two down linebacker very quickly. Which isn't ideal.
     
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  15. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    How was it wrong?
     
  16. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Why would he be a two down LB? Esch is actually pretty good in coverage.
     
  17. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    He's a zone cover guy who's never played a down in man. I don't think his athletic ability translates on the field and I think he'll be susceptible in coverage.

    I also think it's interesting that you said you didn't want Roquan Smith because he gets swallowed up by blockers, which is obviously Vander Esch's biggest issue given how consistently he gets washed away by blockers.
     
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  18. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Just brcause he hasn't played man a lot doesn't mean he can't do it. He has all the physical tools and athleticism for it. Either way our defense doesn't ask linebackers to play man a whole lot, we mostly play zone and esch has shown he is very good in zone coverage.

    As for getting washed away by blockers I wouldn't say it's a weakness of him. He is not great at it but he is definitely not as bad as Smith at beating blocks and holding up. He is also a lot bigger and stronger than Smith so he can get better at it with more experience and technique work.
     
  19. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    I think the Dion Jordan experiment showed that you need your LBs to show they can cover (man and zone) in college. Technique and intelligence are more important than raw physical talent.
     
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  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Ok, in theory you're right...not having done something a lot doesn't a mean a person can't do that thing well.

    So what specifically have you seen that says Esch can, in fact play man at an NFL level?
     
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  21. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    He has the size, speed, quickness and athleticism to match up well against most tight ends in man coverage. He showed his athleticism at the combine and that athleticism is also apparent on tape. Apart from his physical skills he also shows good awareness and read and react skills in coverage. There is nothing about him that would suggest he cannot perform well in man coverage, other than the fact that his team didn't ask him to do it much in college.

    Either way it's a moot point since the dolphins play their linebackers in zone most of the time and there is absolutely no question that he can play zone very well.

    So the original contention that he would only be a two down linebacker in the NFL is a baseless assumption.
     
  22. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The Dolphins schematically play zone because they can't cover in man.

    Anything else is, you know, a baseless assumption.

    Or a moot point.
     
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  23. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Smith is also far better at keeping clean, in large part because of his instincts and speed. He's much quicker than Vander Esch both athletically and mentally, to the point where a lot of plays don't ever show up on the stat sheet that he's made - athletically he's on the perimeter quicker than the play itself, forcing it back inside.

    LVE is a big, tall linebacker who's talented at reading the play unfolding and filling a gap downhill and is going to be physical with the ball-carrier, but I suspect is probably just going to be an average coverage guy who isn't an outstanding three down player unless his play in the run game demands it.

    Not sure how you equate that LVE is "a lot stronger" than Smith. Genuine question - what's that based upon?
     
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  24. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Smith is good at getting to the perimeter quickly, but not every run is an outside run, most runs are between the tackles and that's when he is going to have to take on blocks especially in our wide 9 defense which tries to force everything inside.

    Esch is stronger in the sense that he is stronger at the point of attack than Smith. He leverages and takes on blocks better than Smith due to his size. He also did 20 reps on the bench at the combine which is pretty strong. Smith didn't even do the bench press.
     
  25. danmarino

    danmarino Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is. Club Member

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    lol...I think I just wrote pretty much the exact thing as you in regards to Smith keeping clean.

    Maybe I am learning something from watching tape and reading you experts.
     
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  26. danmarino

    danmarino Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is. Club Member

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    He also thinks Edmunds is "a lot faster" than Smith.

    He loves certain players and pretty much embellishes attributes about those players. At least from what I can tell that's what he does.
     
  27. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask you a question. Do you like all players equally? Because you never seem to question any player ratings or have a real opinion about whether we should pick one player over the other. According to you whoever the dolphins pick would be fine by you since you never seem to disagree with anything that the coaching staff or FO does.

    Yes I like certain players like Edmunds, and I find other players like smith or harris last year to be overrated. I don't want the dolphins to continue to miss on first round picks which is something that we have been doing for years.
     
  28. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Way to early to call Harris a miss bro, regardless of personal feelings. He may turn out to be a massive bust, he could also turn out to be a perennial all-pro.

    While it's fine to fall in love with certain prospects, there are many prospects that will do well in the league, and so it isn't really incorrect to be OK with a bevy of options. I would not be upset with either Smith or Edmunds as the pick for instance. I also wouldn't be upset with like 10 other players lol.
     
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  29. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    It's not just harris. Tbaum has been missing on every first round pick since he got here except for maybe tannehill and Pouncey
     
  30. danmarino

    danmarino Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is. Club Member

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    Are you making things up again? Or do you just not read enough of my posts? In the other thread I wrote I'd be furious if they traded down and took Esch.

    In this matter, Smith and Edmunds are BOTH great players. Just because you like to hitch your cart to ONE player doesn't mean he's the only good player in the draft. The fact that you say things like "forget Smith" shows that you develop biases instead of being objective about all players. It's fine to have "your pick", but embellishing your pick while bashing other players won't lead to any real good conclussions.

    As I wrote before, there are about 12-15 top 10 level picks in this draft. Settling on ONE player, or deciding if that ONE player isn't available at 11 and trading down to get a lesser player is foolish.

    You say you don't want them to miss on a 1st rounder, yet you think only ONE player worth their #11 will be available and if he's not you want to trade down...lol...That makes no sense. Especially in a draft this deep.

    And when it comes down to it, I don't know what the Dolphins want and neither do you. They could go QB, LB, DB, OL, or even RB in the first. Thus, I don't paint myself into a corner by wanting only one guy. And when I see two suburb players (not overrated) like Smith and Edmunds, I realize that either would be a benefit to this team.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  31. danmarino

    danmarino Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is. Club Member

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    WTF are you talking about? LMAO!

    Tbaum has been involved, officially, since 2015. That's Harris, Tunsil, and Parker in the first round since he's been here. If you consider 2014, when he was a consultant, add James to the list of 1st round picks.
     
  32. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    TBaum came on in '14 though, before either of those guys. We've picked up James, Parker, Tunsil and Harris since then.

    James is solid but unspectacular. Parker is looking bustish, but still is open-ended (Tanny's injury was a big blow here), Tunsil was great year 1, regressed in year 2 (coke coach!) while Harris was OK.

    Fair enough to criticize for no home runs, absolutely. I'm not a big fan of his. But really calling out Harris for anything right now is incredibly premature and just makes you look biased against people and unwilling to allow development.
     
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  33. danmarino

    danmarino Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is. Club Member

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    Again, he's making stuff up or he doesn't know what he's talking about. He loved ONE player last year and that's what made him hate Harris. lol
     
  34. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Again, not really sure that shows up on tape given LVE's biggest weakness is getting off blocks. But we all see things differently.

    Smith didn't lift because he's rehabbing a shoulder. He told teams he was doing 18-20 reps at 225 at Georgia.
     
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  35. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Tannehill was drafted in 2012. Mike Tannenbaum was GM of the Jets.

    Mike Pouncey was drafted in 2011.

    Guess where Tannenbaum was?
     
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  36. danmarino

    danmarino Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is. Club Member

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    Maybe he thought Tbaum and the Jets did a good job by not drafting RT and Pouncey?
     
  37. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Boom, quick thoughts on QBs for the non-club masses? Are we legit in on BM or Rosen? Any consideration to Jackson (maybe after a trade-down)?
     
  38. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member

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    Interesting article. Little more up to date. Interesting view of Landry.
    Not that I'm in favor of keeping him, more because its a wasted talent for him to be here and don't have your confidence in the guy steering the ship...But does point out areas I've seen as questionable.


    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports...ot-eyes-jarvis-landry/a4rBF09XlxLMxIeVtotoVN/
     
  39. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    So complex my man. Will have a better idea after FA.

    You wonder whether it's just draft season smoke. Or whether it's the ultimate double bluff - put around enough info to make everyone think you can't be in for a QB and then be in for one.
     
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  40. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not sure which part of that article relates to "being Gase's fault". But OK.
     

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