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Draft Winds

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Boomer, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Nix drafted CJ Spiller at #9, he was useful as **** on a boar, yet they still took him, that is why my speculation is they draft Newton, let Fitz play out his option and become a FA for 2012 with Newton playing later in the season, if not sooner.

    Bengals also have to come to grips that Palmer is leaving one way or another, Brown is a putz but his dictum is "never pass up a franchise Qb", he has done exactly that going all the way back to Esiason/Jack Thompson being taken with high picks with Ken Anderson on the roster, when he took Klingler, Esiasion was on the Roster and so on.
     
  2. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I agree that people can work hard enough to become proficient at any skill. The problem lies in the assumption that an individual will have enough training/practice to become a leader. For instance, a rookie NFL QB who's just had an NFL playbook plopped in his lap has enough to worry about w/o added stressors. It's no different than becoming an actor. There are naturals at it who can earn a part w/o any background...... and there are people who can practice day in & day out and never get a call back.

    Is a team going to send a player off to leadership camp for 6 months to hone his abilities? I hope I don't have to answer that. lol. I agree you can learn from watching others; however, does that mean a team can afford to wait a few years for a 22 year old <with questionable leadership skills> to acquire them by watching the veteran leaders around him?

    Also, some individuals require more practice to become proficient at something than others do...... so we can't even make the assumption that, if it's learned, that it will be learned in a timely manner, and that has to be taken into consideration. What's the point of becoming a great leader of a team if it takes the player 6 years and potential trial and error to get there?

    Matt Ryan wasn't sent off to leadership camp when he was at BC. It's in his blood..... or pre-wired into his brain. Assuming that someone will just "acquire" leadership skills (or any important skills to their career) is a mistake if that person doesn't have the necessary time to dedicate to it.
     
  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Where is the proof?
     
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  4. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I mean this with the utmost respect--- every subject is debatable only b/c there will always be someone too ignorant to realize that the non-debatable subject shouldn't be debated. lol.




    Lets clear a few things up.
    First off, this deals with the brain and how our brains are wired. Most great leaders are great leaders b/c they're natural at it. This stems from the fact that it's human nature to do the things that we're good at and come easy to us.

    Secondly, doing things that we're good at make us happy...... where as, conversely, attempting to do things that we're not "naturally" good at can make us unhappy b/c no one likes facing failure. That's one aspect of separating the two sides.

    The other aspect is: It's human nature to take the path of least resistance in anything that we do b/c that involves the least amount of stress. We will ALWAYS be dealing with avoiding pain or seeking pleasure. This means that people will be deterred away early on from things that they are not naturally good at..... and will seek to continue doing things that come easy to them. Would you enjoy becoming a mathematician if math isn't your strong suit and it required you to put in LOTS of extra time to achieve as well as potential failure? I seriously doubt it.

    The same goes for true leadership. Will someone, who isn't a born leader, enjoy spending the extra time trying to become a leader when there ARE other aspects of their being that come naturally to them? Usually, that answer is also a "no".

    Thirdly, there's a reason that some people are good at some things while others are not.... and that's because if everyone were equally as good at everything, then our brains would go into complete overload b/c they wouldn't be able to handle such a massive amount of neural networks. It would be like plugging 100 electrical appliances into 1 socket. You'd fry it. We'd never be able to learn how to walk. So in essence, our brain makes sure that we're NOT good at everything so that we CAN excel at some things and function properly.

    This is all established early in life. We're all born with more neurological networks than we have now..... a lot more!! Our brains keep the stronger ones and basically shut down or limit ones that are weaker, not used, or used less frequently. The stronger networks become our "natural abilities". They're natural, or easier for us, because the stronger networks allows better transmission; where as, people with a limited network in a particular area will be less natural at it b/c the connection is weaker. It's like comparing high speed internet to dial-up.

    Someone with a more limited pathway can become proficient at something through practice, but they will never become "gifted" at it b/c our brain limits how strong the neurological networks become. When you compare this "non-natural" person to a "natural" who has a strong network in the areas of the brain that deal with leadership, the natural's neural networks can be increased a good deal more b/c the pathways are already open.

    An analogy is like a highway during rush hour. Non-naturals might have 1 lane roads that are attempting to funnel 500,000 automobiles, which greatly limits the rate in which cars get from point A to point B. Naturals might have 4 lane highways that allow the automobiles through with less delay. With practice, a non-natural might be able to expand the highway to an effective 4 lanes b/c the potential is limited......... where as the natural could expand it to 10 lanes b/c the space is already designated for it so to speak.

    So leadership, like every other human ability, most certainly is affected & influenced by natural ability. For the same reason I can't hit 5000 golf balls daily and become Tiger Woods is the same reason a non-natural will never exceed a natural regarding leadership if they both put in the same effort. I'm sorry, but this isn't debatable.
     
  5. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Between football and school, do you honestly think he had the time to spend at "leadership camp"? :lol:

    He probably spent no more time devoted towards "leadership building" than any other dedicated QB who displayed poor to average leadership traits.
     
  6. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    [video=youtube;amKljtZtuMQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amKljtZtuMQ[/video]
     
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  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    That's great for starters and seems to be motivational...... but true leadership is tested during tough times. Getting guys pumped up before a game isn't the same thing as leading a group of men through battle when you can't rely solely your his athletic ability to pull you through it. Just saying (as a general statement).

    In college, b/c Cam is the most talented & productive guy on a field of mostly 18-22 year olds, it's much easier for him to have confidence in leading his team . However, in the NFL he'll be a 22 year old on a field comprised of grown men, fathers, husbands, millionaires, etc who could care less what he accomplished at Auburn. IMO these two scenarios aren't one in the same. How Cam performed & succeeded in college is no indication that he'll be a good chess player at the NFL level.... and if a QB can't be a good chess player on an NFL field, then I'm not sure if he can be a good leader.

    Veteran NFL players who have earned their stripes wont be looking up to him to carry their team just b/c he has tremendous natural talent. Cam's going to have to earn it, and giving speeches before a game won't cut it. Leadership at the NFL level is more mental than ability based, so he'll need a firm grasp of the game before he can be relied upon to lead anyone...... b/c how can anyone lead if they don't know what they're doing. So Cam will have to prove that he knows his s#!t first. I'm not saying he can't do it, but I am saying that it's a temporary question mark.

    Prospects who have shown leadership skills in a pro style offense (like Matt Ryan, Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, or Matt Stafford) are less of a question mark b/c they've already displayed once that they can learn a more complex offense and succeed in it..... which goes back to the point that you have to know what you're doing in order to effectively lead.
     
  8. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Thee...Ohio State University
    Henne lost something mentally from Michigan to Miami, how often does a player get worse by going to the NFL.
     
  9. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I think any man can get worse over time if you strip him of himself, cut off his berries, and try to make him into something he's not. lol.
     
  10. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

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    This could apply in many aspects of life...
     
  11. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was more interested in the progression that his coach saw from him from a leadership standpoint, what his coaches were telling him about leadership, and what his thoughts on leadership were than the RAH RAH speech. Also, if a QB cannot make the reads he needs to on the field, his leadership qualities won’t matter. He won’t be on the field for long.

    Did you watch any of the Jets hardknocks? They molded everything about Sanchez from the way he took notes to the way they wanted him to sit and look during meetings. He didn't have the best attitude about it and they called him on it. If Mark Sanchez can be turned into a leader, I have no doubts about Newton. He might not succeed, but I cannot see him failing for the reasons that a Leaf, Russell or Young did. They all had all the talent in the world, but they didn't have dedication, or mental toughness to deal with being a Pro. Think about the attention that Cam got last year and the way he played and led with that attention. There is no such thing as a sure thing before the draft, but if we somehow (and I don’t see how) get Newton I’m not going to worry about his leadership.
     
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  12. markeyh

    markeyh New Member

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    I still feel Henne is the guy for the Job. I look forward to seeing him under the different coaching staff we have...
     
  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Come on TP, Cam Newton won the Heisman, won the National Championship (though the system is rigged), he was responsible for 50 touchdowns.

    He's 6'4 plus and a chiseled 260ish pds, let's not overthink this Bro, chances are good he will be a fine NFL Qb as though it may seem like a complex job, at the end of the day this is not quantum mechanics.

    What is really being discussed is his ceiling, not his floor, he'll be fine.
     
  14. PhinishLine

    PhinishLine Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Per Rotoworld:

    Bills owner Ralph Wilson acknowledges that he has questions about Auburn QB Cam Newton's "intangibles."
    "We've had a number of quarterbacks that could throw the ball 100 yards and right into your stomach," said Wilson. "But then they got into games and threw it 100 yards into the other team's stomach. There's time. We'll learn more about him." After reading the impressively thorough article by Chris Kouffman and Simon Clancy in the South Florida Sun-Sentinel this week, we believe the questions about Newton's intangibles are largely overblown. His stock will continue to rise

    Can I get an autograph before you two clowns start grabassing on ESPN and NFLN please?
     
  15. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't see how we get anyone else for the job next year. The QBs that might be worth starting over him in the draft don't seem like realistic possibilities for the Dolphins. Actually, that’s a question that I have if CK or Boomer are still reading this thread, would you start Newton over Henne his rookie year? Assume at least a normal training camp, if not the mini camps etc…

    Until the CBA gets done I’m not counting on any FA or traded players coming in last minute and winning the job from Henne, who at least has familiarity with the players here.
     
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Per rotoworld, Boom and CK getting some more ink.
     
  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    The problem with your argument is simply, "some people do." When talking about science of people, some people who are not naturals work harder at it and become naturals.

    The brain has neuroplasticity, which means that it can change the way it is routed. They have determined through studies that the brain can change all the way up into the 70s with little problem. The statements you are saying is from a 1950s psychology book.

    It is debateable because you are saying the chicken came first because the chicken had to lay the egg. Saying it is not debatable is ignornace to the science of the brain.

    Also this idea of natural really degrades hard work. Tiger Woods works his *** off to be a top notch golfer. He has been golfing all his life. The reason why you can't go out and hit 5,000 golf balls and become Tiger Woods is because Tiger Woods is also going out and hitting 5,000 golf balls. To say he is a natural is an insult to Tiger Woods and all his hard work.


    Some people are better at somethings than others. That does not mean that someone who has a natural ability to a "thing" can never be bested by someone who does not have a natural ability to the "thing."

    If that was the case the Olympics would be nothing but a blood test and a brain scan.
     
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  18. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So Todd, let me get this straight:

    Cam Newton is good at handling stress, but not adversity.
    Cam Newton is good at motivation, but not leadership.

    What are you, a lawyer?!?! C'mon man, do you see how ridiculous these distinctions are?
     
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  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I hope you realize your answer to the question is, "He is good at it, so he must be a natural."

    You have no idea about his mentors, classes, books he read or people he hangs out with.
     
  20. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    None of that has any correlation to becoming a good NFL QB...... which is why I hope you're being sarcastic. lol.
     
  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    It has everything to do with it TP, it is not as if with his tools he makes it to the NFL and goes Dan McGwire, the worst that would happen is he forces his OC to dummy down the offense to cater to his strengths TD/Checkdown/Run for first down.

    Why overly complicate matters?
     
  22. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    That's the million dollar question...... and I would be shocked as heck to see Cam start over Henne for the first year unless the team wants to regress further on offense in 2011. A regressing offense isn't the best way for a coach on the hot seat to keep his job. Similarly, a top 15 pick who doesn't see the field his rookie year doesn't help a coach who needs as much immediate production as possible.

    A running back can greatly contribute his rookie year, especially when we have none on our roster.

    Plus, if I'm in charge of this shindig, then I don't want Sparano, Daboll, & Co touching a QB until/unless they prove themselves worthy of one. If Sparano & Daboll screw the pooch next year, a new staff might not want anything to do with Cam, and then we could conceivably be trading up again in 2012 to get our hypothetical new staff "its" guy.
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Your opinion is wrong. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, but your happens to be incorrect.
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I have enough experience being a leader to know that it is about your willingness to embrace the role and willingness to PRACTICE it, and LEARN it.

    I mean listen to what you just said in the post above. "West Point BREEDS leaders". They're TAUGHT how to be leaders. They're taught to embrace their role as leaders, and given the tools to hone their skill at it.

    Cam Newton is the same. Auburn taught him how to be a leader. They taught him to embrace the role, gave him the tolols to accomplish it, and taught him to work at it.
     
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  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I mean this with the utmost respect, but you're an idiot.


    That's the equivalent of what you just said to Dupree.
     
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  26. godolphins

    godolphins New Member

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    I don't think we should draft Cam Newton solely because we need a guy that can step in now and be effective we simply don't have enough patient and time to develop his talent and even if we did who on this coaching staff would be able to do so, our defense won't be this good forever, Mike Nolan won't be here forever and our pieces on offense won't be here forever we need a guy that can win now(that's why I want us to trade for Kyle Orton)

    This team is in win now mode, Ireland and Sparano are in win now mode because their job is on the line
     
  27. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I agree, my thinking is maybe they claim Vince Young when he is waived and retain the #15 pick, that way Sparano has a Qb who has had some success in the nfl and is not in their mid to late 30's, and the Franchise itself is not betting the entire farm on Sparano via using the #15 for anything other than adding additional stability for the Franchise.

    Ross cuts the check for 8 million for Young, Ireland does the right thing with the #15, everyone's interests are protected.
     
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I find the very concept of leadership to be one of the most overblown and over-romanticized subjects imaginable. This "you have it or you don't" stuff, "into the breach once more my friends", "leaders rise to the occasion" crap...it's all just romanticized hooey.

    There are nuts and bolts to leadership, there are do's and don'ts. There are practices, teachings and thought processes that wouldn't look very leader-like if people opened the curtain and saw what was going on back there.

    If I had to break down being a leader, and it CAN be broken down, I would say it's about:

    1. Commitment to being a leader. You can't be a leader if you haven't decided to be one. You can be a guy that's looked up to, a guy that is admired, but you won't be functioning as a leader because you haven't embraced the role. This commitment can come from an in-born sense of self-importance ("I lead wherever I go because that's who I am and that's how important I am to whatever I'm doing."), or it can simply be given to you ("You're assigned title of President today, be President.").

    2. Public speaking. The ability to speak in front of people and to people fluidly, confidently and naturally is of vital importance. There are classes that can help you get ten times better at this than you currently are, and anyone can take them. I recommend Toastmasters.

    3. Awareness of appearance. A leader is aware of what he looks like at all times. He/she doesn't slouch. He/she keeps control of his/her facial expressions and makes them deliberate. He/she dresses appropriately. This doesn't just apply to your physical appearance but also how you sound. A leader does not sound shrill. A leader does not have an embarrassing laugh. A leader does not speak too quickly. A person can take any number of acting classes available at your local community college, and be taught the skills to accomplish this aspect of being a leader.

    With those things in your back pocket, from there being a leader in a football sense comes down to talent. If you have it, people are going to laud you for what a wonderful leader you are. If you don't, you'll be cast aside. Period.
     
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  29. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sparano isn't in charge of the shindig, at least as the draft goes. I don't think that there is any way that Ireland doesn't draft Newton if he can. If the right trade up is there, or if somehow he falls. At least it better be that way. His (Irelands) loyalty should be to the Dolphins and Ross, not Sparano. I just don't see it happening.
     
  30. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    You comparing a leader to a Taco Bell employee shows how little you understand what you are
    talking about. I mean ""leader" in the sense of leading men in a positive way.
     
  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Your quote shows how little you understand the statement that I made.

    Of course you mean leader in the sense of leading men in a positive way. If you could not get that from my statement then I do not know what to say.
     
  32. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh, well that really clarifies things. Thanks for pointing that out. Jeez.
     
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  33. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Now you're twisting my words for your benefit. You're the one saying that b/c he can handle stress that he can handle adversity..... and b/c he can motivate prior to a game that it means he can be a good leader. The cold hard truth that I'm telling you is there is no correlation between handling stress and overcoming adversity...... just as there is no correlation between being a good motivator and being a good leader. If they were the same thing, then motivating would be called leading, and vice versa..... just as stress would be called adversity.

    Nothing from what I wrote said that I believed Cam couldn't become a good leader or have the ability to overcome adversity. I only don't make the false assumption that he CAN do it when you DON'T know that he CAN do it until he's placed in the actual situation that deals with it. To just "assume" that he (or anyone) can do this or that b/c they're good at something else is a little ignorant, with all due respect.
     
  34. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    You can break things down to componant atoms.

    At the end of the day, a leader is undfinable.

    Your breakdown of leadership is pretty ****ing legendary though.
     
  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't even have a response to those two statements that wouldn't seem insulting in some way, other than "I disagree".
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Congratulations on your 1000th post. :)
     
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  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Correlation does not mean the same.
     
  38. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but are you really insisting that there's no correlation between handling stress and overcoming adversity or no correlation between being a good motivator and being a good leader?
     
  39. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Respectfully, please look up the definition of natural. If someone has to work their butt off at something to become proficient at it, then they're the furthest thing from being a natural when a true "natural" could accomplish the same thing with significantly less effort. Your other mistake is making the assumption that ALL people can become proficient at something with practice when that's actually a straw argument. If it takes someone 10 years to become proficient at something that a "natural" takes 3 months, then we're not really talking apples to apples here are were. No disrespect, but your attempt at this argument could be interpreted as you never being a "natural" at anything (or having realized what your actual natural abilities consist of), b/c someone who knows they have a natural ability in something understands the difference between their ability and the average Joe's.

    No offense, but it seems like you didn't read my post. I specifically stated that a "non-natural's" brain can adapt to where you can increase the strength of a weak network through repetition etc (I used the 1 lane road expanding to 4 lanes, did I not?). The area of debate isn't about the brains ability to "change the way it's routed", but rather the EXTENT that it's able to change or strengthen a connection. People with an innately weak connection can only improve it so far, where as a natural in said area can greatly improve the strength.

    Again, respectfully, the only thing ignorant is your attempt to argue the Gallop Organization's 30 year study on this very same topic that spanned 63 countries & consisted of 1.7 million employees & 80,000 Managers. This is NOT a study from the 50's despite what you tried to imply.

    So what you're saying is the only reason Tiger is the best golfer of all time is b/c everyone else was just plain too lazy? :lol:


    If a natural and a non-natural put in the same effort on something, then natural will ALWAYS win..... and most of the time with the natural being able to put in much less effort than the non-natural.
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I love when people say something really offensive, but it's ok if they preface it with "No offense, but..."

    If only Jeff Ireland knew that simple phrase, he could have avoided so much mess with the press over Dez Bryant...
     

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