Draft Winds

I was watching EPSN as Mel Kiper and Todd McShea were giving their draft ananlysis of QB's. They both agreed that the 2 most important attributes for a great QB are Accuracy and Football Intelligence. Both of which I believe Cam Newton is either very average or falls short on. His accuracy in college was great when his recievers are 2 or 3 steps open, but you didn't see him putting the ball right on a guy that was well covered. His football intelligence is hindered not because I'm calling him stupid, but because he's never played a pro style offense. He is a one read and run QB in college and isn't used to coming out from center. Its a lot more difficult looking for you open recievers, reading the defense , and escaping pass rushers as your dropping back from under center when your used to being in shotgun most of the time.

"the 23rd wrote:

Friend alen1:
as many holes as we have to fill on offense
might make more sense to get an offensive line
& a running game & maybe a deep threat
before we sell the farm to acquire that QB
we can't do it all in a year, maybe in two years
if you find the definitive answer to the QB question
in 2011, great! if not, lets put together a quality offense
acquire a veteran or late round QB on the cheap
& give the stable a chance to compete
the Superbowl is not on our horizon, we are rebuilding an offense

worse thing we could do @ this point in our development is to squander resourses

We have a deep threat, it's Brian Hartline who did pretty well downfield last year.

There's no 'ifs' at the QB position IMO. Its either you have one or you need to get one.

"alen1 wrote:

We have a deep threat, it's Brian Hartline who did pretty well downfield last year.

There's no 'ifs' at the QB position IMO. Its either you have one or you need to get one.

I've made that same comment myself on a number of occasions
(for whatever reason, many fans think/post negatively on Hartline)
I think the guy has pro-bowl potential & has enough speed to be the deep threat
one less thing in the rebuilding of the offense? maybe.
the other thing I have always contended is that we go nowhere w/o the franchise QB
having said that
there are still many holes to fill on offense & I don't see the BigEnchilada on the horizon
I think it will take two years to complete the reconstruction of the team

every acquisition should be a quality acquisition with the potential of contributing in year-one

"Garryowen wrote:

Ha ha! Make an assertion and back away from it.

Textbook race baiting.

Great job, really.

Let me break this down so even you can understand it:

1. Todd questioned Cam's intelligence without any real explanations as to why.
2. I asked him to explain himself.
3. He did so.
4. I did not respond to his explanation because I thought it was sufficient (although I, and others disagree with the contention that a test cheater = lack of intelligence)
5. You accuse me of "race baiting" and making assertions.

You need to back off, pal.

"the 23rd wrote:

I've made that same comment myself on a number of occasions
(for whatever reason, the many fans think/post negatively on Hartline)
I think the guy has pro-bowl potential & has enough speed to be the deep threat
one less thing in the rebuilding of the offense? maybe.
the other thing I have always contended is that we go nowhere w/o the franchise QB
having said that
there are still many holes to fill on offense & I don't see the BigEnchilada on the horizon
I think it will take two years to complete the reconstruction of the team

Forgive me, I'm a little confused. Who (or what?) is the Big Enchilada?

the Super Bowl is the BigEnchilada

"alen1 wrote:

We have a deep threat, it's Brian Hartline who did pretty well downfield last year.

There's no 'ifs' at the QB position IMO. Its either you have one or you need to get one.

To be fair Alen , BH is not a true deep threat. Certainly not to the point you consider that a strength , at least for me.

BH is a decent player , makes some nice plays but hasn't shown he is elite or noticeaby superior in any facet of the game ...yet.

To me , he is aplayer you hope to improve upon , and have him move downthe depth chart.

"dolfan22 wrote:

To be fair Alen , BH is not a true deep threat. Certainly not to the point you consider that a strength , at least for me.

BH is a decent player , makes some nice plays but hasn't shown he is elite or noticeaby superior in any facet of the game ...yet.

To me , he is aplayer you hope to improve upon , and have him move downthe depth chart.

He's not a true deep threat but he does a good job of getting down field and creating pass interference penalties and/or catching the ball.

Cheating on a test in college doesn't make you stupid. It say two things about you though. Number one, your lazy. Obviously if your not stupid and you have to cheat that means you were to lazy to actually study. Number two, you have no/little character. Anybody can cheat on tests, I could have cheated on tests through college, I didn't because I'm a person of character and I know that cheating on tests is wrong.

So even if you can't assert that he's stupid from cheating on tests in college it does tell you other things about the person.

Thanks for the write up guys. Very in depth and comprehensive analysis of newton. I have always seen a great athlete when i watched him play and your analysis has given me some insight into his skills, mechanics, and leadership. These aspects of his game are also very important to his success at the next level and ya'll gave some great info regarding those issues. There are so many things which can have a positive or negative impact on a person and their ability to succeed in their endeavors. the more i see of cam newton the more i believe he CAN be successful as an nfl qb. If the dolphins organization believes he is the guy they want then i have no problem with them making a move to get him,,,, go for it, be decisive, get the guy you want,, if he flames out then at least you went down swinging.

"dolfan22 wrote:

To be fair Alen , BH is not a true deep threat. Certainly not to the point you consider that a strength , at least for me.

BH is a decent player , makes some nice plays but hasn't shown he is elite or noticeaby superior in any facet of the game ...yet.

To me , he is aplayer you hope to improve upon , and have him move downthe depth chart.

Hartline ran hurdles in college as well as play football. he's been clocked @ 4.44 in the 40. very decent speed for someone 6'2" & 186lbs. he has consistently demonstrated the ability to go deep & go up to get the ball when it is thrown to him. very tough kid, much underrated, excellent hands, I think he is a deep threat & has pro-bowl potential. only time will tell, he's just 24.

Hartline ran a 4.52 but that's not all that important. He plays with pad stability out on the field IMO and plays faster than he's timed.

I had to chuckle when I was watching highlights of the Newton media day. Dilfer called it lights out but didn't say a word about how Cam leaves his feet sometimes when he throws.
Doubt that will fly at the next level.

Friend alen1:
his best time was a 4.44, I just looked it up
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=56879&draftyear=2009&genpos=WR
however what Hartline has, besides speed, is quickness & the ability to play over a defender
not unlike Miles Austin, the Dallas deep threat & another big receiver (runs a 4.47)
if you get the ball down field, Hartline will go up for it & either bring the ball or an interference flag down with him

for those that want more speed down field, I have no problem with more speed
having said that
I don't see the WR stable in need of a fix. we could use more speed on the return team
& given that they usually double as WR's, to that extent it can only help the offense too

I didn't like the hartline pick, but so far he has been better than I expected and if he continues to improve then I was completely wrong about the guy,,,,,, actually I was completely wrong. He's a good player and I thought he was a wasted pick.

Friend Killerphins:
would not mortgage our football future on a QB who did not have the potential to start on day-one & learn on the job, if necessary.
just an opinion

Doesnt matter the Dolphins wont draft him unless they can trade up to a top 5 pick. So his arm strength or stupidity doesnt matter. I dont want the dolphins to draft newton id rather them draft ingram but I guess that makes me a racist

"Garryowen wrote:

Stop race baiting.

QBs intelligence gets questioned all the time. Not just with black QBs.

You're just hyper sensitive.

I'm not race baiting, but nice try there. YOU said "black". I didn't. There's always some idiot who can't look at someone else's concern or criticism w/o throwing the race card if the player is black. I don't care what freakin color a person is.

So what you're saying is the mental side of the game isn't important at the NFL level and should never be questioned? Are you saying that b/c he's black that we can't question whether or not he can handle the mental aspect of the NFL?..... Or are you saying that we can't question ANY prospects intelligence regardless of race b/c it's just plain rude? :lol:

Did I say that he's stupid?..... or did I say that the mental aspect of the game was left out of the profile? IMO the mental side is equally important as arm strength & talent, and it's often the reason why a highly talented player busts at the NFL level.

Actually, you summed this up yourself: "QB's intelligence gets questioned all the time." Exactly..... so please tell me, Mr.I'mLookingToTwistSomethingIntoARacialIssue, if QB intelligence is questioned all the time, then why do you have a problem with me questioning his intelligence? Has he been caught cheating? Did he leave UF to avoid suspension or expulsion? Is there a stolen laptop issue? So if he were white and this happened, would it be ok for me to question his intelligence? Apparently YOU are the one turning this into something racial. People like you are the reason that issues with racism persist b/c you're always looking for a reason to turn something "non-racist" into a racial issue. People like you are a cancer to society.

"Garryowen wrote:

Ha ha! Make an assertion and back away from it.

Textbook race baiting.

Great job, really.

Seriously, grow up..... and stop antagonizing people.

"bamadolphin wrote:

Doesnt matter the Dolphins wont draft him unless they can trade up to a top 5 pick. So his arm strength or stupidity doesnt matter. I dont want the dolphins to draft newton id rather them draft ingram but I guess that makes me a racist

Yep, this is a bit like discussing Andrew Luck in this draft..he is not going to be there to begin with...

Which is why I bang the Young/Thigpen/Russel drum, no need to tilt at windmills.

"alen1 wrote:

We have a deep threat, it's Brian Hartline who did pretty well downfield last year.

There's no 'ifs' at the QB position IMO. Its either you have one or you need to get one.

I respectfully disagree about Hartline..... but I would like to hear why you feel he's a downfield threat in case I'm on a different page.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

I'm not race baiting, but nice try there. YOU said "black". I didn't. There's always some idiot who can't look at someone else's concern or criticism w/o throwing the race card if the player is black. I don't care what freakin color a person is.

So what you're saying is the mental side of the game isn't important at the NFL level and should never be questioned? Are you saying that b/c he's black that we can't question whether or not he can handle the mental aspect of the NFL?..... Or are you saying that we can't question ANY prospects intelligence regardless of race b/c it's just plain rude? :lol:

Did I say that he's stupid?..... or did I say that the mental aspect of the game was left out of the profile? IMO the mental side is equally important as arm strength & talent, and it's often the reason why a highly talented player busts at the NFL level.

Actually, you summed this up yourself: "QB's intelligence gets questioned all the time." Exactly..... so please tell me, Mr.I'mLookingToTwistSomethingIntoARacialIssue, if QB intelligence is questioned all the time, then why do you have a problem with me questioning his intelligence? Has he been caught cheating? Did he leave UF to avoid suspension or expulsion? Is there a stolen laptop issue? So if he were white and this happened, would it be ok for me to question his intelligence? Apparently YOU are the one turning this into something racial. People like you are the reason that issues with racism persist b/c you're always looking for a reason to turn something "non-racist" into a racial issue. People like you are a cancer to society.

Todd, I believe Gary was accusing me of "race-baiting", not you.

"GARDENHEAD wrote:

Let me break this down so even you can understand it:

1. Todd questioned Cam's intelligence without any real explanations as to why.
2. I asked him to explain himself.
3. He did so.
4. I did not respond to his explanation because I thought it was sufficient (although I, and others disagree with the contention that a test cheater = lack of intelligence)
5. You accuse me of "race baiting" and making assertions.

You need to back off, pal.

Thank you.
I don't think cheating necessarily equates to poor intelligence, but it does throw up a caution sign. His cheating could be something as simple as immature laziness by a kid who feels he doesn't need to study as much b/c his natural ability will get him by...... or maybe b/c he just hates putting time into studying b/c he doesn't like it. It's also possible that "laziness regarding academics" along with his mastery of the English language (lol) has zero correlation to film study, extra preparation, or absorbing & applying what he's studying.

It's possible that the kid is extremely bright, but until I know for sure, I have to question him for nothing more than proper due diligence.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

Thank you.
I don't think cheating necessarily equates to poor intelligence, but it does throw up a caution sign. His cheating could be something as simple as immature laziness by a kid who feels he doesn't need to study as much b/c his natural ability will get him by...... or maybe b/c he just hates putting time into studying b/c he doesn't like it. It's also possible that "laziness regarding academics" along with his mastery of the English language (lol) has zero correlation to film study, extra preparation, or absorbing & applying what he's studying.

It's possible that the kid is extremely bright, but until I know for sure, I have to question him for nothing more than proper due diligence.

Todd, I'm going to "bait" you into posting more often so I can see more of those huge, wet titties in your avatar!

I agree with Dol-Fan Dupree that there's not really a strong correlation between cheating academically, or stealing a laptop, and being dumb. It's often the smart ones who trick themselves into make terrible decisions. I've been around quite a few smatr people who cheated academically, and I've been around a few people who at Newton's age also were caught stealing...and are, in fact, ridiculously smart.

And Todd, are you really questioning how Cam Newton is going to handle adversity? This is a guy that since November has had reams and reams of news stories being written about his dad asking for money, people leaking his cheating escapades at Florida (which I find to be morally reprehensible, there's a reason those records are sealed), a whole ton of fresh re-visits on the laptop incident. He probably had reporters hiding in his cereal bowl trying to get a comment from it. The NCAA was investigating. Auburn was investigating. At any moment he could have been ruled ineligible. He had to be worried about that, had to be worried about the fact that wins could be taken away from his entire TEAM, and their chances at a championship ruined. Then there's also all the drama everyone creates over the Heisman issue, and he had to go through all that.

My god. This guy went through as much "adversity" DURING a football season than any pro I can remember...pretty much ever. And you know what happened during that time? He got better! Better, in every way. He narrowed his focus, kept working on getting better with his team, and it paid off with him continuing to get better as a passer, winning games, including ridiculously hard ones like the Alabama game, steam rolling South Carolina in the SEC Championship, and then capping off with a National Championship.

Kirk Herbstreit was RIGHT when he said he had literally never seen anyone face the amount of adversity did during the 2010 season and come through never breaking stride, he accounted it one of the most incredible feats he's ever seen at any level of football.

And we're making arguments about whether or not Cam Newton can handle off field controversy and adversity?

YIKES.

At this point, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because there's no way we can even be speaking the same language if we're getting to a point where we're disagreeing on Newton's handling of controversy and adversity. I mean it would be like if you and I were arguing about Ryan Mallett and you said he's not going to be very good because he has a weak arm. I just can't even begin to see it that way.