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Draft Winds

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Boomer, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't know exactly how much he learned from Tebow. But I can tell you that Auburn basically took it upon themselves to not just teach Newton how to play the position, but how to be a leader. It was like position coaching to them, this is how a leader holds himself, this is how a leader talks to his team, this is what a leader does in this situation. We're talking about actual, tangible things you do in certain situations, not some vague and useless crap like "leaders rise to the occasion". And they also taught the members of the team how to respond to Cam Newton, basically how to be led. When your leader talks to you, respond physically, pick yourself, get going. It's really interesting how direct they were in teaching that stuff.

    People like to think that leadership comes natural or it doesn't come at all. I don't think that's true at all. I think you train forms on being a leader just like you train forms on being a defensive end, or a wide receiver. It's a role you play, one you accept and you work at. Newton had to see how Tebow worked at it, he's not blind and deaf. He seemed to embrase his role as Auburn's leader. And so naturally when the SEC Championship Game was over, a bunch of offensive linemen came over to Newton asking him to let them hoist him on their shoulders. And so naturally, Cam Newton lets them. But in reality, maybe it's not so natural after all...it's behavior that is taught and learned. What is important then, is that Auburn took the time to teach him how to be a leader, and he took the time to learn it.
     
  2. bamadolphin

    bamadolphin New Member

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    I dont want the dolphins to draft Cam Newton. Its not cause hes black or that hes stupid or he has character issues. Its not even because his father is over bearing. He is a run first qb. In the offense at auburn he only had to make one read if that guy wasnt open he would run. Everyone compares him to Vick and Vince Young. I personally thing Newton is better than both but I do have a question. Can anyone tell me the last time a run first qb won a super bowl?
     
  3. Rhody Phins Fan

    Rhody Phins Fan Well-Known Member

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    This post makes me think that you didn't read the piece by CK and Boomer. He is not a run first quarterback. When a pass play was called Newton very rarely ran with the ball. The vast majority of his runs were designed run plays.
     
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  4. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    It's not that simple. Leadership for the most part is a character trait just as being a type A personality is a character trait. Training for "form" involves repetition (and a great deal of it). The same cant be truly said regarding leadership. Most people either have it or they don't...... or they develop some semblance of it over time after being in a role that can allow it to develop..... but it can take years to develop if it doesn't come naturally.

    There's an outstanding book you should read called "Next Discover Your Strengths" that deals with this very subject, and its principles are used by major companies around the world.
     
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  5. bamadolphin

    bamadolphin New Member

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    didnt have to read it. I watched him in every game this year. He is a run first qb. You gonna answer the question?
     
  6. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    I dunno how it is in sports past HS level, but you are a leader or you aren't.

    Lots of people fancy themselves leaders.

    Newton has been institutionalized to deserve respect.
    That's fine. When you are in the pros and men are looking
    at you to lead them, it's a different story.

    West point breeds leaders. Some good, some bad. Some fail in the
    face of a test, some don't.

    You don't learn how to lead out of a book or a program.
     
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  7. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    CK...You are a leader. There really isn't a question about it. You've carved yoruself out a niche through your own effort.
    You can't tell me you were taught that through a program.

    You just had the desire and the heart to do what you do.

    That's how leadership is.
     
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  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    "Yikes"? lol. No disrespect, but I believe that you and Herbstreit are confusing "overcoming adversity" with "coping with stress". DaQuan Bowers lost his father and his mentor, Gaines Adams, in a short period, and in the face of that worked to become one of the top players in the country. Now that's adversity. What Cam went through pales in comparison to a player losing a loved one or having something they cherish taken away from them. Adversity comes from much from dealing with some form of significant loss. What did Cam lose? Was he suspended from Auburn? Did he have a major injury or illness to recover from? Was he removed from the Heisman ballot? Did he lose the Heisman? Was he suspended from the Championship game? Did he lose the adoration and support of his fans, coaches, or teammates? No, no, no, no, no, and no.

    The other main aspect of adversity is actively overcoming a crisis or hardship(including emotional) or achieving something crucial or important in life when the related cards are directly stacked against you. Cam hasn't really faced this type of adversity yet..... but he soon will when an NFL playbook is plopped on his lap..... and he'll face even more when trying to effectively read & react to an NFL defense. Being scrutinized nationally isn't emotional adversity when his fan base, whom he cares about, is still supporting him. All that is, is stress. However, trying to win a fan base back that may potentially criticize and turn on him IS a form of emotional adversity in this case.

    What Cam did was get through a stressful time while having the aid of a tremendous support system around him. It could've turned from stress to adversity IF something drastic happened like: being removed from the Heisman ballot, having his fans turn on him, or being suspended from the team. However, he was allowed to continue on his same path and play football.

    Examples of times when he could've faced and overcome adversity include: How he responded after "being caught cheating". Did he straighten himself up?..... or did he cheat again? He cheated again..... and then reportedly a 3rd time. How did his character change through this adversity? Did he make sure to improve it after the scare of getting in trouble?...... or did choose to make more damaging mistakes? He made more mistakes.

    What Cam went through this year is nothing compared to the adversity the guys faced after being booted from UNC. Those kids had something taken away from them and were truly stuck in a due or die situation.

    And no offense to Kirk, but he's an idiot to call this situation one the greatest feats of overcoming adversity at any level of football. I have 2 words for Kirk: Mark Herzlich. THAT'S SOME SERIOUS ADVERSITY. Kirk's words are a complete insult to someone who faced real adversity. I'd like to see Cam fight for his life, endure the pain & stress of chemo, lose a ton of weight and strength, have a metal rod put in his leg, and then try and make an uphill comeback to where he has to fight with every ounce of his being to overcome said adversity.

    The football world made sure there was no genuine adversity regarding Cam b/c it absolved him of everything so that he wasn't held back from any part of his game. We allowed him to win the Heisman. We allowed him to compete for the national championship. We allowed him to stay in school at Auburn, and his fans supported him all the more. Cam didn't have to fight for anything. So, respectfully, please tell me where the adversity is at.

    Where you say Cam overcame adversity, I say things actually came easy for him.... and his routine statement "I'm blessed" only backs this up. I don't praise a kid for putting himself into a stressful situation and then watching him skate though it w/o any loss or having to do much of anything in the process.
     
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I wouldn't judge someone's ability to lead due to their years in highschool.

    Leadership is like professional speaking and is also like stand up comedy. There are some people who are naturals who have it much easier than others and there are others who work really hard and succeed the other way.

    When someone gets to the point where they are good at something, it is easy to say, "Oh he was a natural." Generally people do that so they can feel better at either failing or not putting in the work themselves.
     
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  10. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You clearly thought you watched them but didn't understand what you were watching.

    What's hilarious in this thread is that you have people saying the following:

    1) Aw he's not accurate
    2) Aw, he's thick.
    3) Aw he's a run first QB.
    4) Aw he's Jamarcus Russell

    Talk about sticking to the force fed agenda. Try READING the article. Try watching the plays and understanding the context of each play. Try researching the kid properly. If you don't like him, great. There's players I like that you won't. But don't drag out the same nonsense that's just been disproved.
     
  11. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Boomer or Ck, here is what I do not understand about the "cam newton can play Qb" effort:

    He won't be there at #15 overall, not a chance, why should anyone care about Cam Newton's draft prospects when he simply will not be on the draft board when we select?

    What does it matter?
     
  12. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Because if Miami are to do what it takes then they need to trade up. That was explained in two of the 4 pieces we've done so far for the SS Ed.
     
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  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The Bills have the #3 overall, the Bengals have the #4, either one will take Newton, the #2 overall would literally break the bank to acquire, this is Don Quixote stuff Boom.

    [​IMG]

    (not to many Dolfans have read Cervantes Boom, visual aid )
     
  14. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Yup.

    Basically trade our entire draft (we have no 2nd) for Newton, pay him way more than our 15th would make, and what do we have.. another unproven QB in development. That and a lot less cap money.

    Too many questions to make that move, imo. Yea, obviously every pick has questions, but it's a lot diff when you're literally putting your entire draft on one player.
     
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  15. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    The frustrations of a disapointing season tend to merge into so many aspects , don't they?

    It won't be "easy" or an afterthought , however if Miami wants to move up badly enough for Newton , they can facilitate that. Not sure why we bother to spend time on that aspect as opposed to the aspect of scouting him , analysing him , grading him.

    That is more prudent to me , since we NEED a QB , and have needed one for a decade pretty much.

    We may not get Newton , certainly , but to say we won't because we can't is totally false , imo.
     
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Disagree, the Dolphins do not have the overall level of talent as a base to eschew an entire draft in 2011 and lose picks in 2012 for a Qb who has a 13 game track record, that is foolhardy imo.

    Such moves rarely are made simply because they rarely work D22, the Jets got an absolute steal from the Browns moving up to the #5 to select Sanchez and even that trade was facilitated due to Mangini's desire to avoid paying a huge signing bonus to the #5 overall, to compound matters Mangini then accepted a trade out of the #16 pick for a 6th rd pick that became Josh Freeman, the Bengals nor the Bills are not known for trading out, the Broncos maybe would trade out of the #2 overal..but...it would cost 2 #1's the 2011 and 2012.

    That is why this all appears to be the old guy in the armour charging the windmill atop his warhorse..right motivation, unworkable ideal.
     
  17. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hes lucky..not blessed..

    anyone who says that when it comes to their skillset is a fuc$in self righteous ignorant idiot..jmo..Now I dont know how to interpret it when he says it, because I dont know whether hes talking about his journey or his skillset, but if he does believe his skillset and talent is a blessing than I dont want him anywhere near this team....but, thats not something I can judge him on right now until I hear from his own mouth that that is what he really means.
     
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  18. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    There are leadership schools that you go to in the Navy as you become a noncom. I'm sure the Army was the same way. It is something that can be learned, even If you don't have it naturally. Like most things some people have to work harder at it than others do, and those people sometimes become better than those that have it naturally, as they do work harder.
     
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  19. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    And??

    I can't be done because someone says it can't , yet it can.

    As I mentioned it won't easy or without cost , however if Miami truly wants it to happen they can make it happen. Not saying they do or will , but the presumptive "it can't or won't " is just an opinion , one I feel is not correct.

    From what I see , we aren't going anywhere until we have a QB that can compete at the level our competition is at. Rather than stagnate and never reach that level , I would prefer that when , if , we identify the QB we BELIEVE in , we aggressivlely , assertively pursue him.

    When was the last time we sniffed a Super Bowl berth , I guess if fans are ok with that remaining the status quo until somehow we get lucky on a QB , then they are ok waiting unproductively to maybe have that occur. I am not.

    From what I have seen of Newton , I am not and would not be afraid to identify the price needed to acquire him , then develop him and wait the couple of years needed to take on NE and NY , and that is just our division. I see no future if we continue to cross fingers hoping things change while not doing what we need to , to ensure they do.

    But hey , that is just me , maybe others are ok, as I said, to wait patiently with no realistic chance for substantive change.
     
  20. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    All of which very much reminds me of a young lad who wanted a Red Ryder BB Gun, "I want it!!!"

    Means absolutely nothing at all, this line of thought "mortgage everything to draft Newton!" could very easily be "mortgage everything to draft Luck!"

    The reality is, Newton will be long since off of the board, and Ireland will have his fingers and toes crossed that he can recoupe a 2nd rd draft pick nevermind "trade up because I am convicted about such and such a Qb!".

    Tilting at windmills D22 if a Qb is on the board it will be Mallet, Locker, or Kaepernick.
     
  21. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    You can learn the nuts and bolts and theory of leadershinp.

    You don't learn how to BE a leader out of a book.
     
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  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    You can learn the nuts and bolts and theory of <blank>.

    You don't learn how to BE a <blank> out of a book.


    Blank can equal hairdresser, mechanic, massage therapist, computer programmer, Taco Bell employee, or anything else that takes a minimal amount of skill.
     
  23. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well no, it's like anyother craft, you have to practice and do it to truly learn it. I don't see where that doesn't apply to Newton though. Even if he started out as a piss poor leader with no natural skills, it is fairly apperent that he has worked on those skills at Auburn and is a leader now.
     
  24. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm sure you know exactly what Jeff Ireland is going to do on draft day.
     
  25. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would agree that you don't learn to lead from a book, but you can learn to from being in leadership situations and from watching others lead.

    I also agree with Padre that trading up to #2 is not simply a matter of desire. We simply don't have the assets to get there. Thinking that we will is Don Quixote stuff.
     
  26. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    He has said he wants to recoupe that #2 pick, he has -0- history of trading up in the draft, he will trade back, he will swap draft positions, but top 2 rds..all trade backs, in fact he has done so that last two drafts.

    "I want a red ryder BB gun!!!!!"
     
  27. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Yep, experience is the best teacher.
     
  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Exactly...... and the statement by Two Tacos isn't valid, no disrespect to him.

    Most of the guys entering the NAVY are kids out of high school. The likelihood is slim that their leadership traits were apparent at 18.

    His statement is almost saying that no one who enters the NAVY has leadership skills, but they're put through training and develop it better than those who naturally have it. I disagree.

    The people entering the NAVY deal with a normal sample size. Out of this sample, some are born leaders and some are not, just as some are better at math, and some are better with weapons, and so on, which is why they have the ASVAB test to begin with--- to establish what a recruit's strengths are. Leadership skills are no different than any other type of skill or natural talent. For example, Kim Chi isn't better at math b/c he works harder at it; he's better at math b/c the neural pathways in his brain allow him to excel at it. Organization skills, leadership skills, analytical skills, risk assessment skills, etc are no different. People like MLK didn't take a class to become a leader. He was born a leader. It was in his blood. It was a part of his mental make up. If we all had equal abilities in these regards, then we'd have a planet of identical people who were all capable of doing the same things to the same level of expertise, but that would be impossible.

    The fact that some of these NAVY guys become greater leaders than others <despite having the same training> only back up what we're saying--- that leadership is an innate characteristic. They all take the same class but have different results. Hence, the guys with true leadership skills will rise to the top as they're allowed to develop those skills. This honestly isn't a debatable subject.
     
  29. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Actually it is debatable. And most information I've found on the topic leans towards the conclusion that leadership can be learned. Here's a couple of examples:

    UT Study: Charismatic leadership can be measured, learned

    KNOXVILLE -- How do you measure charisma? That's the question UT professor Kenneth Levine seeks to answer.

    Much has been written in business management textbooks and self-help guides about the role that personal charisma plays in leadership. But according to a newly published study co-authored by Levine, a University of Tennessee, Knoxville, communications studies professor, until recently no one was able to describe and measure charisma in a systematic way.

    Levine said the large amount of academic literature on charismatic leadership never defined what it means to actually communicate charismatically.

    "There's this illusion that we know what charismatic communication means, but in the research I reviewed, no one had ever really looked at that," he said.

    Levine and his co-authors, Robert Muenchen of the UT Statistical Consulting Center and Abby Brooks of Georgia Southern University, surveyed university students and asked them to define charisma and pinpoint the behaviors of people they thought were charismatic.

    "Everyone has a leadership capacity in something," Levine said. "But we found that if you want people to perceive you as charismatic, you need to display attributes such as empathy, good listening skills, eye contact, enthusiasm, self-confidence and skillful speaking," he said. Those are the attributes social scientists can measure to more fully understand charismatic communication.

    Levine says the most surprising result was that the students felt that charisma was not just something you are born with, but something you can learn. "We asked the question 'What is charisma?' and their answers tended to start with 'the ability to…' Well, abilities are believed to be acquired attributes rather than inbred traits, so a lot of people believe that charisma can be learned."

    Levine says the research makes the case for incorporating these concepts to better measure the level of charisma of individual leaders.


    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-02/uota-usc020811.php

    http://www.intlalliance.org/fileadm...p/education_alliance_quarterly_vol.2_p5-7.pdf

    The second URL has quotes from a variety of experts that generally reach the conclusion that leadership can be taught/learned.
     
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  30. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You are going off of history of 3 drafts? That's a nice large sample size you are working with there. And so what if he said we wants to recoup that 2nd round pick? GM's say things they don't mean this time of the year all the time. Anything should be taken at face value. Wasn't giving up two second round picks for B Marsh something that he would never have done? It got done. There is still plenty of time before the draft, and it is perfectly possible that Cam does something that will make this team extremely enamored with him and they will do whatever they can to pull the trigger.
     
  31. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Honestly, every subject is debatable, especially when it comes to human traits. To say it is not debatable is laughable, because there are many people who do debate this subject all the time. There isn't even close to consensus.

    They haven't found a "leadership gene" and if they did, they would also have to prove that the gene is unable to be turned on after it is off. Since they are discovering more and more that genes are not static blueprints.

    What he said does not back up that leadership is an innate characteristic, unless you can pinpoint how exactly it is an innate characteristic. How do you know if someone is a great leader and has training, that the person is a great leader because of the training or because of the innate characteristic?
     
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  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    He also ran the drafts in Dallas..no trade ups, that was a Jerry Jones move after Ireland left the Cowboys for the Dolphins.
     
  33. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Exactly, if anything a mock draft this yr will be fairly accurate as teams just do not give up much to move up and select defensive players, add in in the uncertainty with the CBA and the draft being the only certain way to add the guys a GM will want and teams giving up ransoms in draft picks just is not likely (though not impossible).

    A really good example of how locked in everything is this yr is the market in offensive tackles, 5 are carrying first rd grades, but over the last 3 drafts some 20+ Tackles have been drafted in rd #1 or rd #2, chances are good there will be more than a few Tackles sliding back as they just do not match needs in this draft.
     
  34. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You missed my point. Leadership is like anything else, while some have it more naturally than others, it can also be taught. Just because something can be taught doesn't mean that anyone can learn it. The Navy trains everyone that gets a leadership role in leadership skills, and you’re right people succeed or fail from there. I have seen guys that were natural leaders not be as effective of leaders as guys who weren’t. This happened because the guys that weren’t worked harder at it. This doesn’t mean that anyone can be an effective leader just because they want it, but that wasn’t the issue. The question was whether leadership could be developed and it can.

    A naturally fast person that doesn't work on his speed can be outrun by someone that would be slower than him if the slower person trains while he does not, or if they train harder than he does. Is that a debatable subject?
     
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  35. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He was a scout. That wouldn't have been his call to make.
     
  36. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    In 04 or 05 he became Director of Player Personnel and has taken credit for the 2005 home run draft numerous times.
     
  37. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    "In 2001, Ireland became a national scout for the Dallas Cowboys. During Ireland's time as a college scout, the team drafted four future Pro Bowl selections - safety Roy Williams, offensive lineman Andre Gurode, cornerback Terence Newman and tight end Jason Witten. Ireland served in that capacity until 2005, when he was promoted to the position of Vice President of College and Pro Scouting."

    That to me sounds like he went from Scout to Head Scout

    He still wasn't the GM, that was Jerry. If Jerry had wanted a guy bad enough trade up, Jeff Ireland disagreeing wouldn't have stopped him. He went behind Bill Parcells back and signed T.O. anyway, what makes you think Ireland would be a road block.
     
  38. Rhody Phins Fan

    Rhody Phins Fan Well-Known Member

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    None. But I don't agree that Cam Newton is a run-first quarterback either. How do you personally define run-first quarterback? In your opinion, what percentage of pass plays does a quarterback need to run on to be run-first?

    PS. I think you're really doing yourself a disservice by not reading the Sentinel piece. It's excellent.
     
  39. Boomer

    Boomer Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Don't be so sure that the Bills are set to give up on Fitzpatrick.
     
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  40. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Especially if they could add Green! If I were the Bills, I'd snatch up Von Miller with a quickness...
     
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