Ansah is a very physical player. Strong. Stout. Certainly has no issues with contact. Loves to be in the middle of the action and to be able to show off his pure strength. But he's not explosive. He doesn't have quick or explosive hands though he uses them very well, and he's got dead feet. He has good and active hands and strength, but he needs them because he makes things harder on himself by not using his feet. It's always going to be harder for him to keep blockers off his body. There are some defensive ends out there that'll tell you their hands are a defensive end's best weapons. There are some that will tell you their feet are a defensive end's best weapons. He's definitely in the former category. I don't think he compares with Aldon Smith because Aldon was more explosive and used his feet better to keep himself in position to make plays.
And if there's a reason I think that Dion Jordan reminds me more of Aldon Smith than anyone like a Ziggy Ansah it's probably because of the feet. Dion Jordan does a lot with his feet to help his hands. He's not quite as explosive or aggressive as Aldon was but he uses the combination of hands and feet to stay alive and produce quick action the way Aldon Smith did. Sometimes Jordan just ends up doing too much with his feet and that's where the lack of Aldon Smith's aggression and quick hands comes into play. Dion Jordan needs more coaching than Aldon Smith before he'll be a dangerous foe on the football field. Honestly I think the player in college that reminds me most of Aldon Smith is probably Jadaveon Clowney but obviously he's not in this Draft.
Great write up, thanks. I could see him at WOLB or SOLB and at either position he'll bring a lot to the table imo. I haven't seen another LB in this draft who brings as much to the table in terms of pass rush and coverage ability. I would have included Anthony Barr in that category because of the burst and pass rush ability that jumps out at you, but I haven't seen nearly enough to have a firm opinion and I guess that he's staying in school anyway.
Bjoern Werner is just a different animal altogether. He's not going to be compared with an Aldon Smith as he's a different player, not as explosive or lengthy. Everything with him in terms of use of hands and feet in combination is smooth and balanced, and highly effective. The strength to knock players backward and even send the smaller ones flying is definitely there. When he uses it, his jump off the snap and first step are actually the best I've seen in this Draft bar none. Everything with him is strategic. He's got a tool box with a lot of tools and he uses them all and uses them appropriately. He's the most play conscious defensive end in the Draft. And I've particularly liked when the Seminoles have stood him up and given him more discretion and space to work with on his pass rush, because I think it fits with his mentality as a player, not to mention his physical gifts. I'm just waiting for a good laugh when I see someone talk about him being a "high motor" player. That'll be one of those cliche moments where you realize that "high motor" = white. The most maddening aspect of his game is his lack of motor (range) on plays. He conserves energy a little too much and doesn't show range. Dion Jordan and Anthony Barr will both lope 40 yards down the field and run faster than most other guys, chasing a ball down from the back side. Bjoern will kind of just let it go by. Too smart for his own good. He makes decisions and judgments on everything he does on the field, including making judgments about when he's not really involved in the play anymore. You'll never see him take a play off completely, but you don't necessarily see him play snap to whistle, either.
It seems like Alex Okafor is a consistently forgotten man when it comes to this discussion. But I liked him in 2011 and I like him in 2012. He's explosive and fast, has quick hands, very savvy and aware player. There's really not a ton (if anything) separating Dion Jordan from Alex Okafor. He probably has the quickest hands of any of the guys at the top, and he uses his feet really well too.
Something just to keep in the back of your mind when looking for a DE we may draft. Ireland, to my knowledge hasn't drafted a pass rusher/defensive end (not a 5 technique end, as guy who is supposed to rush the passer) that is over 6'3''. Even Anthony Spencer way back when was 6'3''. Linebackers are a little bit different, but Irish seems to prefer guys with long arms but at about 6'3'' or so, not much taller. I have no idea why other than him maybe thinking that these guys will be able to get under a 6'6'' tackle that much easier. Just something to consider, and if that holds true, guys like Corey Lemonier fit the bill, but the guy who fits that slot that I'd love to see us grab is Morgan Breslin. That guy will be a hell of a player IMO. Breslin likely won't be on the menu come draft time, but otherwise its guys like John Simon, who is not a pass rusher and maybe Travis Johnson from San Jose State or someone Scott Chricton from Oregon. Johnson is a speed guy who lacks other traits to really be a starter, but he will likely be a special teamer.
I don't know about that. Jeff Ireland was fully on board with Demarcus Ware (whom he compared to Derrick Thomas) and Ware is above 6'4". It could also be a system thing. Coyle comes from a background in Cincy of having taller guys. If Jeff is adapting to him (and who knows if he will or not) he may start liking taller guys. I know Jeff has adopted Parcells' old conventions that say nobody under 6'3". The exception he made was Cam Wake for cheap money. If Jeff also has a rule about nobody over 6'3", then that's an awfully tight convention.
Just look at who he drafted or brought in to be a pass rusher. There's a hell of a lot of guys at 6'3'' to be purely coincidental. Shelby - 6'3'', Vernon - 6'3'', Wake - 6'3'', Spencer - 6'3'', Chris McCoy - 6'3'', Misi - 6'3'' Thats been since he's been here other than Spencer.
He leaves a ton of sacks out on the field. Idk if its just him playing too fast for his own good, but its maddening how many times he can beat his man and then totally miss the QB due to a small sidestep, step-up, etc. It got to the point where I expected him to miss the QB after beating his man. He takes horrible angles to the QB and seems to have low football IQ. I think he is really soft too. Shame because his athletic talent is incredible.
But only one of those guys, Wake, is a consistent threat. Perhaps it's time Ireland break the mold on that prototype.
If we're counting Shelby the UDFA does that mean we also count Brian Johnston (6'5"), Quinton Spears (6'5") and Clifton Geathers (6'7")? Or Jason Taylor (6'6"), Charlie Anderson (6'4") or Ikaika Alama-Francis (6'5")...in addition to the aforementioned Demarcus Ware (6'4")? I think you're correct that it's not a coincidence there are so many guys that are 6'3". But rather than taking the viewpoint that it's a sign of Jeff Ireland limiting the height of his players, I think it's the opposite. He's a strict believer in those players having at least a certain height, which is a convention taught to him by Bill Parcells. The circumstances surrounding him in terms of A) the kind of defenses that Jeff Ireland has generally been stocking (3-4 defense where you need a guy that can move in coverage), B) the kinds of resources he's using on the position (generally low, especially in Miami), the circumstances themselves lend toward picking between a bunch of guys that are 6'2" or 6'3". It's actually telling, to me, that he's generally avoided those 6'2" guys (with the only exception I can think of being Jamaal Westerman) and gone with guys 6'3" and above.
Personally, I think when you limit who you look at, or have parameters of what players must fit into you are only doing yourself a disservice.
Okay, I'm getting ****ing sick of Ireland's template bull****. Get the best player. Period. If we bypass this years embarrassment of riches at pass rusher to take a ****ing backup LB/DE special teamer with no natural rush ability because he's exactly 6'3" I'll ****ing barf.
Particularly if the templates you use would exclude very talented players who could be very productive for you, but you eschew them due to your commitment to some pre-Cambrian paradigm that once worked for your ossified tribal elder when he used to hunt wooly mammoth up in Jersey.
I'm just tired of hearing about our GM holding to tenets of a man I no longer respect as much as I used to because the game evolved and Parcells couldn't evolve with it.
I think you're going overboard, Barry. Ireland begged Jerry Jones for Demarcus Ware, who's taller than 6'3.... and I don't exactly see a reason to complain about Cam Wake, do you? Anthony Spencer is a solid player. Hell, he's got 80 tackles, 10 sacks, 2 FFs, and 3 PBUs.... and he's stepped up amidst injuries to his fellow linebackers. Shelby might be 6'3, but so what. How many other undrafted ends made a 53 man roster and have actually seen a defensive snap? Vernon might be 6'2, but so what. He's outperformed every rookie DE drafted after him regardless of height. Misi was considered by many to be a potential stud 3-4 OLB capable of sneaking into the all rookie team. As it is, he's a starter and has done quite well at SLB. Isn't it possible Ireland simply went after the best prospects available who just happened to be 6'3 and under? What's more important to you, performance or making sure he's not 6'3? Ware- elite Wake- elite Spencer- very good Misi- quality starter Burnett- above average starter Shelby- possibly the best rookie FA end acquisition. Vernon- outperforming every DE on the board at that pick. The only guy close is Frank Alexander who is..... wait for it..... 6'3. Vernon...... 25 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, 2 blocked kicks. Alexander.. 13 tackles, 3 sacks, 2 fumble recoveries, 3 passes broken up. How do you look at this list and see nothing but an outstanding collective of ends/LBs? Honestly, what GM has done better? There are things that deserve criticism like WR, but this is silly.
Do people honestly think Ireland looks at a talented pass rusher and says, "Nope, you're taller than 6'3 so I won't take you"? Ireland's 4-3 DE's and 3-4 OLBs have been between 6'2 1/2 and 6'4. You know who else is in that range? Aldon Smith, 6'4. (#1 in sacks for 43 DE/34 OLB) Von Miller, 6'3. #2 Wake, 6'3. #3 Ware, 6'4. #4 Clemons, 6'3. #4 Matthews, 6'3. #6 Greg Hardy, 6'4. #7 Charles Johnson, 6'22. #8 Abraham, 6'35. #10 Anthony Spencer, 6'3. #10 Justin Houston, 6'3. #10 Avril, 6'3. #13 Robert Quinn, 6'4. #14 Michael Bennett, 6'3. #15 **​That's 14 of the top 15 at 6'2-6'4. Plus theres: Suggs, 6'3 Mathis, 6'2 Hali, 6'3 Chris Long, 6'3 Babin, 6'3 Trent Cole, 6'3 Barwin, 6'35 Will Smith, 6'3 Woodley, 6'2 Orakpo, 6'3 Umenyiori, 6'3 Kamerion Wimbley, 6'37 Bruce Irvin, 6'3 Derrick Morgan, 6'3 Ryan Kerrigan, 6'3 Adrian Clayborn, 6'3 Jabaal Sheard, 6'3 Brooks Reed, 6'3 Of the 8 2012 first & second round pass rushers, 7 were 6'2 - 6'4 (with 5 of those being 6'3). It's not that we're ignoring talented tall pass rushers. It's that few of them exist. Jason Taylor 6'6 (1997). Peppers 6'6 (2002). Jared Allen 6'6 (2004). Tuck 6'5 (2005). Mario Williams 6'7 (2006). Michael Johnson 6'7 (2009). Pierre-Paul 6'046 (2010). Chandler Jones 6'045 (2012). Then you have the rare short guys: Dummervil 5'11, Harrison 6'0, and Freeney 6'1. The probability alone says that if you're looking at a top pass rusher, he's coincidentally most likely to be between 6'2 and 6'4. If you guys would like to skip all the 6'3ish studs just b/c they're 6'3, then you're in that boat alone. And on the flip side there were four tall 6'5 to 6'7 DEs drafted in the top 17 in 2007-08 (Gaines Adams, Jamal Anderson, Jarvis Moss, and Derrick Harvey), and all of them were busts. By the way, the NFL's #3, #4, and #10 top sack guys at 43DE / 34 OLB------- are Jeff Ireland's.
Why would Ireland hold to Parcells' tenets when he's not even a Parcells disciple? He's not remotely close to Parcells.
As I said earlier, not 3-4 DE's. I'm talking about pass rushers, Spears was never a pass rusher. Taylor he inherited, a talented player no less, they'd use him for their purposes. And they did twice, after making an example of him twice. Clifton Geathers was not a 4-3 end either and thats without looking. Francis was a DE with detroit IIRC that they switched to LB. Again, pure pass rushers are mostly 6'3'' for Ireland. 3-4 defensive lineman are bigger sure, but he isn't looking for them to be pure pass rushers.
Spears was absolutely a 3-4 OLB in this scheme. That was his position. I don't know any other way to put it because it's the truth. He was a tall, lanky and skinny guy and he rushed the passer from OLB. It doesn't matter what Ikaika Alama-Francis was in Detroit, in Miami he was a 3-4 OLB and rushed the passer from that position just like anyone else. I don't think you can cite Derrick Shelby as a "pass rusher" and then turn around and say Quinton Spears and Ikaika Alama-Francis played rush OLB in a 3-4 yet shouldn't be considered pass rushers. He did not inherit Jason Taylor. They traded Jason Taylor to the Washington Redskins in 2008 and then Jeff Ireland re-acquired him in 2009. Then Jason Taylor left for the Jets in 2010, and then Jeff Ireland re-acquired him all over again in 2011. And there's also Charlie Anderson who played 3-4 WOLB with Miami at 6'4". And Brian Johnston whom they tried at 3-4 OLB and was 6'5". The reality is where you see everyone being 6'3" on the dot, I doubt Jeff Ireland is pegging that convention so incredibly tightly and I see everyone being mostly over 6'2"...they're all 6'3" and above. That's his convention. He wouldn't have signed Jason Taylor to be his pass rusher twice if he thought guys 6'6" can't rush the passer. Jason was largely considered over the hill both times Ireland signed him. And then there's still Demarcus Ware's 6'4" to contend with.
Spears was a DE. A 3-4 DE, he was that coming out of college. I don't think he was seen as anything other than a 3-4 end. How he's now a pass rusher is a mystery to be honest. You can't trade Taylor if you don't already have him when Ireland got here. So yeah he did inheret him, Taylor was on the team at that time. Parcells got rid of him, even Taylor said that. Brining back Taylor in my mind was more of a fill in stop gap measure in both instances. He did what he could with what he had, in very much the same way he handled the WR position this offseason. You can alot about Ireland, but he does tend to not buckle and just bring someone in for the sake of it (Nanee aside, as I have no idea why anyone would pay him) and would rather just deal with what he can get. Why wouldn't I cite Shelby? He's a pass rusher in a 4-3 and he does get pressure especially early on in the season. He never set the world on fire in college but he did collect sacks. Francis was a bit player who struggled to see time on Special Teams. Did he get switched to LB, yeah was he ever really a pass rusher? Ever? He was here to set an edge from what I can remember, especially in Nolan's scheme. Nolan flipped where the pressure came from in terms of keeping Wake on the right side of the offense as opposed to what he did in Denver. Francis was playing more of a Robert Ayers/ (the other guy Denver had as more of the run stuffer) role who may have provided a tertiary rush, so is he really a pass rusher when he was aksed to carry guys down the field etc.? That role in that defense was not one of a pass rusher.Matt Roth got after the QB moreso that Francis ever di from what I can remember. The reality is most of the guys you mentioned are not actually pass rushers. Charlie Anderson with his career high of 2.5 sacks in a season? I remember you even writing a post outlining how he wasn't one saying that we shouldn't expect anything more than that. You said he was a guy who applied enough prerssure to make the tackle move, but would not win the edge and provide pressure - so I'm not sure you can on one hand say he isn't one and we need an upgrade and then say in the next breath that was in fact one. Ware sure, take him but those two players don't provide enough to be anything more than an abberation to a trend rather than bucking the trend, especially Anderson. By that definition, Kevin Burnett and Jimmy Wilson are pass rushers as they are producing at the same rate as Anderson was. I don't think that works out in the end. I'm sorry I just don't see it. Defensive lineman for a 3-4 - yeah he likes big guys, but for pass rushers in general he's collecting players who are at about 6'3''. In this draft class alone in terms of DE's there are only 6 guys out of the top 23-24 that are 6'3'' or under. Theres a hell of a lot more chance we take a guy who is over 6'3'' to be a pass rusher than otherwise, but I'm willing to bet that we don't take one. We'll take someone like Lemonier. Thats my gut feeling on it, and honestly I don't think he likes big guys as pass rushers, lineman for a 3-4 absolutely.
I don't know any other way to put this. You're just not correct. Quinton Spears did not play 3-4 DE in Miami. He played 3-4 OLB. Perhaps you're thinking of Marcus Spears in Dallas? I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just a fact that Quinton Spears played 3-4 OLB/4-3 DE in Miami and this is why when Cleveland claimed him off waivers they made him a linebacker/end. That's kind of a weak point. You no longer inherit a guy when he goes off to play for some other team and then you bring him back. Twice. And the second time he brought him back, Parcells was no longer with the team. First off you're using hindsight to assign importance on the Derrick Shelby signing when the fact of the matter is, he was just a UDFA that played better in camp than they thought he would (else they'd have drafted him). The reason I cite the likes of Quinton Spears and Ikaika Alama-Francis as comparison with Derrick Shelby is clear. They were also signed with the same lack of priority. Second, you're openly referring to Jared Odrick's backup (Shelby) as a "pass rusher" while dismissing the notion that Ikaika Alama-Francis was a pass rusher, and this does not make any sense. Was Ikaika Alama-Francis brought in to be a primary pass rusher from the weak side? Of course not. Was Derrick Shelby? No. No more than they truly view Jared Odrick as a "pass rusher" from end, even though he's a 300+ lbs defensive tackle playing defensive end only on run downs. If Ikaika Alama-Francis is disqualified from being deemed a "pass rusher" by virtue of his playing SOLB instead of WOLB then clearly Derrick Shelby's being Jared Odrick's backup as opposed to Cam Wake's backup, also eliminates him from discussion as being brought in as a "pass rusher". Third and finally, you're referring to effectiveness when that has nothing to do with the argument. You're talking about Jeff Ireland's priorities. Olivier Vernon has hardly been effective as a pass rusher but they clearly brought him in thinking he would help with that effort (and stated so). If you're going to eliminate other players from consideration due to effectiveness, and then talk about Vernon's height and how it provides another data point of evidence that Jeff Ireland pegs his pass rushers at 6'3" and below, that's a contradictory argument. But again you're openly contradicting yourself and it just ends up looking like complete gerrymandering of the data. You count guys like DERRICK SHELBY the UDFA who is backing up Jared Odrick's spot, and then you eliminate a guy that was actually brought in to play WOLB in our 3-4 system, on the basis of us not expecting him to be effective? Either you're contradicting yourself there, or you're implying that Jeff Ireland & Co. predicted Derrick Shelby would A) make the roster, and B) be a much more effective pass rusher than they predicted Charlie Anderson to be, yet they still let him go completely undrafted. Since I doubt this is what you were implying, I think you're just trying to have what's good for the goose not be what's good for the gander. And the same is true of this argument about Anthony Spencer versus Ikaika Alama-Francis. You astutely point out that Ikaika was brought in to play SOLB. Well, Anthony Spencer was brought in to play SOLB as well. By whose definition? The one you just made up just now? That's fine. We agree to disagree. I think there's nearly as much history of him bringing in guys 6'4" and above for positions that rush the passer, as there is bringing in guys 6'3". He was fully on board with the 6'4" Demarcus Ware and he signed the 6'6" Jason Taylor twice specifically to rush the passer. Those strike me as significant data points that stand opposed to the significant data points you've brought up which I consider to be Cameron Wake, Anthony Spencer and Olivier Vernon. I don't think three separate signings in a pool of six or seven (if you also count Koa Misi, which I'm not sure I would) can be considered 'abberant'.
Well, I specialize in studying pass rushers, it is my thing and basically there are 3 "types" -speed rushers, guys who just jump the snap and get into the Qb's *** -Bull rushers, these guys just whip the tackle or guard with pure power -Technicians, the best of the best, have it all, can use their hands, use their speed, go from speed to power to speed like a sports car, or they can bury their helmets into the OL's chest and then shed. Always protect their knees and legs. And better yet, they know how to set up a OL for a key sack later on in the game, they sucker the OL into overplaying one move and when the situation calls for it, change up get the sack and the cheerleaders then kiss them. Higher level skills involve guys like JT who could also use leverage at a whim and instinctively know how to strip a football via watching the offensive player's hand positions and elbow movement I can recall a couple of "Guru" types saying Orakpo couldn't pass rush...I knew better, watch a Tackle get happy feet, feet that are uncertain and you should then know the prusher has their *** in their back pocket. Saw that consistently with Orakpo in college..he scares Tackles.
I'm wondering if you're thinking of Marcus Spears as opposed to Quinton Spears. Marcus was a straight up 3/4 DE iirc who could play some DT but would be one jumbotron pass rushing LB. Quinton Spears was a lighter guy iirc, and I can't really picture him playing 3/4 DE. As to Corey Lemonier, I agree to a large extent. I like Sam Montgomery and I'm wary of Mingo, but I have reservations on each. Jarvis Jones and Damontre Moore fit the bill but will probably will be taken before we pick. Mingo just strikes me as a risk in terms of intangibles (as does OLB Jamie Collins). Sam Montgomery vs. Corey Lemonier- to me that's a dilemma. Montgomery is rock solid, great size and strong at LOS. He can move well, but Lemonier has that extra gear as a pass rusher. We already drafted Vernon as a solid all around DE- my head says Montgomery, my gut says Lemonier- I don't know. Montgomery is the better player, Lemonier is the better pass rusher. I'm really starting to wonder who we take at our slot- maybe we trade down and get both of them, or some other beneficial combination. Matt Elam still comes to mind.
Sam Montgomery versus Corey Lemonier not too much of a dilemma for me. Sam Montgomery reminds me of a poor man's Ray Edwards.
Not sure what you mean, which do you prefer? If I were looking for a well rounded DE I like Montgomery- Lemomier is one of the few guys who shows what I would consider an excellent burst- not quite Anthony Barr but better than Brandon Jenkins. I could see Lemonier more as a base OLB and situational pass rusher. I think that your comparison undervalues Montgomery somewhat.
I don't think Sam Montgomery will be any more than "just a guy" at the next level, is what I meant by that. I like Corey Lemonier better.
I don't know, I like Montgomery and look at him as being a solid, well rounded 4/3 DE. Quite frankly I don't see a whole lot not to like about him and I think that he'll be quite a bit more than just a guy. For our defense I could very much see Lemonier lining up opposite Wake on passing downs, he just seems to fit what we need imo- excellent pass rush and perimeter athletic ability. Very interested in him as a potential pass rushing OLB, too. Somewhere in this forum iirc you mentioned Jake Knott in the 4th round- I like that call, and I would not be disappointed at all if the FO went back to the same well and drafted AJ Klein. Hello Iowa St. boys, bye bye Jason Trusnik.
I like the pair of Iowa State linebackers too. I don't see it on Sam Montgomery. He's built well enough, but he gets off the snap poorly and doesn't have a great first step. He makes up for it a little bit with his second gear, but he doesn't use his hands well, doesn't shed blocks, and he gets blocked a lot by guys that aren't supposed to be able to block him.
It seems to me Montgomery's added weight has anchored him down a tad in the pass rush department, but then again I haven't watched last year's play since last year so my memory could be off.
