Dolphins would be better served upgrading areas other than QB

Let's not forget, Sanchez is being yanked out of the game when the team is in the red zone, either. They also have WRs who can catch the ball and then run it into the end zone themselves, you listening Brian Hartline?

Wow, that's 30+ attempts per game, even more if you count the Bears/Titans. I thought we were a big, bad, run it down your throat team?

So having play makers on BOTH sides of the field, and a TE who creates matchup problems can help the QB perform and be more agressive? Shocking.

Almost single handedly put Sean Smith in the Pro Bowl, seriously.

Sanchez through 507 passes for the season, still less than Henne on a per game basis, but not by much.

The guy is horrible. I can understand why people are down on Henne, to an extent. But when you go out and even try to claim that Sanchez is better, you have zero credibility. If we switched QBs w/ NY Sanchez would be bust city, the fans would hate him, and we'd be talking about how we could've had Henne in the 2nd round.

Sanchez gets a pass b/c his team makes up for his deficiencies, and they win.

 

Why does it have to be either/or?

There are 11 guys on offense. Only one of them is currently dominant in every aspect of his game. And even he can improve.

It's not inconsistency. It's that I don't feel it necessary to apply ad nauseum or common sense qualifiers to every statement I make.

Lackluster quarterbacking will inhibit a dominant receiver. So will hip surgery. And Marshall can bring a needed (and previously possessed) element to the receiving corps this season (which was sort of a separate post by itself).

 

See my ad nauseum qualifiers post. Or one of my previous replies to you. Or my post history.

I will add that I believe we have a couple of guys that can stretch the field a little bit. Not consistently, but they can do it. Hartline has made a few plays in his career. He'd have made a few more save for some bad throws.

 

Henning max protected most of the time .

Say it 5 times really fast and it sounds like: Henne has all day to throw but he cant read defenses...

 

Name me a WR who WOULDNT have made a few more plays save for some bad throws.

How about if Hartline doesn't fumble against the Steelers when we're up 6 and driving for more? How about if he doesnt trip out of his break vs Lardarius Webb, allowing an INT that was returned inside the 10 yard line? How about when the QB throws a bad ball, making an adjustment to it? How about having more TDs than fumbles, which he failed to accomplish.

There are only two plays that can even be remotely considered "plays" the miracle in Tennessee in 09, and the slant vs the Saints in 09. One was luck, one was a basic play that popped big b/c the Saints were blitzing. If you have a better example, I'd love to hear it.

 

I love this.

You're starting to sound like Wagon Circler. Who cares about Simms and Co.? They've proclaimed Mark Sanchez king of life. They're a big market team. They get big market fellatio. So now he's not more accurate than Henne, he's more accurate deep. I don't have the numbers so I won't comment but that's probably accurate.

If I tried to convince you he'd be good in NY and you didn't believe me, your opinion is un-salvageable.

What I showed you is statistically, Mark Sanchez and Chad Henne are the same person. The crazy thing about it is, Henne was on a much worse team. Regardless of what you see or think you see, they have come out of two years with virtually the same stats and both of Henne's years he played on a less talented team in a Henning run offense.

I'll tell you right now that the only reason Henne was benched was because:

1. He wasn't a high pick
2. There was a veteran "ace in the hole" for Sparano's job in Chad Pennington
3. He struggled last year as a second year player
4. He had little help on a running team with 3 rushing TD's and NOT ONE SINGLE game with a rusher over 100 yards

 

You're right on that passes thing. It's an oversight on my part and I apologize that the integrity of my post was compromised (for the haters). 17 more passes doesn't excuse 7 completion percentage points.

 

Name me a WR who WOULDN'T want a few bad plays back.

Why do you get to say a guy doesn't make plays, and throw out instances where he got himself in position to make a play? If you get behind a defense and I misfire, does that mean you're incapable of getting behind a defense? I just think he's got some ability to do it. In the interest of not being further straw-maned, here's where I qualify that he's not a superstar and can't go deep like Desean Jackson.

I remember the long catch and run against Caroline in '09. Getting behind the Jet defense for a bomb and Henne missing him. Nice long flea-flicker against Titans this year. He's actually a pretty good boundary receiver as well IMO.

I just don't think he's a terrible receiver. In this horrible offense where nobody can do anything, he's somehow has lucked into 15.1 ypc over his awful career.

 

I sound like me. Leave other posters out of it (TOS). And please check the arrogance/condescension at the door. My opinion isn't 'un-salvageable'. It's simply different than yours. I've watched a lot more football than you have -- because I'm about a decade older -- but that doesn't mean my opinion is any more valid than yours, or that it's even correct on the matter. I extend you that courtesy and respect, and I expect you to extend it to myself and other posters.

You don't care what Phil Simms says and that's fine. Neither do I. Simms was a guy that even last season said he'd still have taken Henne over Sanchez. I simply offered him as valid opinion. I am not one to fully dismiss it based on perceived superficial bias during a game. What's more plausible: a former QB with a track record for calling out bad play claiming he sees Sanchez looking off safeties, or simply making it up because they're a big market team?

And that's four reasons you listed. I have another one: he ain't good enough. I truly wish he was. But that 'ace in the hole' historically elevates the level of play around him. Henne has not shown that to this point, unfortunately.

We can agree to disagree.

 

WHAT??????????

 

We really haven`t had a true #1 QB since Dan Marino and we still dont.....Sadly.


P.S. If we Had A young Irving Fryar today-with this QB and offense-he would be severely wasted.

 

Case Closed.

 

Well played .

B/c almost doesn't count. Same deal w/ Sean Smith who dropped 8 INTs this year, but if you cant finish the play then you IMO you "almost didn't fail". If Langford doesnt drop the pick vs NY we probably win, if Carrol doesn't drop the pick vs Cleveland we probably win, if we recover the fumble cleanly vs Pitt we probably win, if Dansby or Smith make easy INTs/defl vas Buffalo we probably win. All of those guys were in position to make plays, and they don't get a pass either. No pun intended.

No one suggested he couldn't get behind the D on occasion. But he needs a double move, play action or a flea flicker to do it. And he needs a perfect pass too. He has no extra gear to catch up to the overthrown ball, and not enough ball skills to come back for the underthrown ball. I'm not asking for a DeSean Jackson or an Andre Johnson who can blow the top off coverage on every snap. A guy who can take a short pass and manufacture a big play would be just as good, if not better. Hartline cant to either, consistently. We have to quality possession WRs in Bess and Marshall, what we lack is a guy who can attack the D vertically and create space for those guys to work underneath.

Again, play action. And IMO that was not Hartline making a play. It was Carolina overplaying the run, and Henning calling a play that took advantage of it. Hartline didnt do anything special, everyone just did their job. When I say "make a play" I mean going above and beyond what was required or expected of you on a given play. Make a couple guys miss, go up and high point a ball, bail out your QB on a bad throw, decleat a guy down field to clear a path for a RB, take a 5 yd pass and turn it into a 40 yd gain. Hartline hasn't shown the ability to any of those things. People say he's a good WR, but he isnt "good" at anything other than blocking.

He's far from terrible. But he doesn't have a skill set that compliments the rest of the offense well, IMO. It's a team game, and if your players don't mesh well then you're not going to have success.

 

No kidding he's shown improvement. Have you seen the offense he's in, the ground game to help him so he's not in so many 3rd and longs, the WRs&TEs he has to pick up chunk yardage for him, the special teams, the consistently better defense, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc?

 

So you wouldn't trade Bess for a 2nd rounder if it were offered? That's all that I said. Outside of that, there's no way I get rid of the best 3rd down receiver in football. I actually value having a guy like him who can move the chains on 3rd down. It's 1st & 2nd down that's the problem.

 

You don't bench a top 5 pick QB of the Future. It makes you look incompetent. If you're a second round pick who gets benched, no one really expected you to set the world ablaze in the first place.

 

HENNE GOT BENCHED BECAUSE OF HIS POOR PLAYING ABILITY.

Period . End of story. Regardless of where he was picked in the draft- his performance on the field landed him on the bench.They didnt cut him,they didnt trade him , they didnt say he will never be a Dolphin QB ever again. They benched him at that moment in time due to his failure to lead an offense consistently. Lets stop kidding one another.

And another thing, if Pennington stayed healthy Henne might already be an after thought in this organization.

 

I didn't realize all caps meant argument over. If Pennington stayed healthy, Sparano would have not have a job by mid year next year. Pennington absolutely sucked his last games for the Dolphins. Mark Sanchez has had much worse games and hasn't gotten benched. It's because he's a top 5 pick without a veteran who suits exactly what the coaches want.

 

All caps = subconscious admission that you're about to say something silly?

Chad Pennington was never "beaten out" by Henne. Henne was arbitrarily named the starter for 2010, and I'm guessing it wasnt a coaches decision. Henne never took control of the team, Penne was still the team leader, and IMO, the preferred option of the the coaches and most of the offensive players and staff. Penne had an MVP type season in 08, was the most respected guy in the entire lockerroom and if the team needed a spark then its only natural to go to him. You can blame Henne for not seizing the position w/ a series of 300yd 3 TD games, but look around, was anyone else making plays?

CHAD HENNE IS MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN MARINO, HE IS THE GREATEST QB EVER.

 

Or maybe it's because he is part of a team that has been in two AFC championships in his first two years, shows steady improvement, clutch performance, leadership, poise and an ability to win games. Yeah they have other good pieces around him, we know.

Guess what? So did Pitt, so did Green Bay, so do all great teams. You still need the QB to play well, or you don't go to back to back AFC championship games. You can throw out any stats you want. Hell, we have a thread right now bringing up stats to try and support the claim that Fasano is a genuine superstar. Toss them and blind homerism aside for a minute and just watch the games. It pains me and all Dolphans to give props of any kind to the Jests, but to say that Henne is at the same level of Sanchez right now is just silly.

This team will NOT be a threat and will not contend for anything more than a wild card until we get this position locked down once and for all.

 

He hasn't won a game in his career. Regardless of team success, he hasn't looked good doing it. if by steady improvement you mean would have had a worse statistical season if Sean Smith alone had caught those INT's then yes, he has shown steady improvement. What is in a phrase? Clutch performance? Throwing the ball to Holmes or Edwards to make a play? Do you know what's leadership? Skipping your honey moon to train with the team. Illegally getting the offensive playbook. Organizing offensive drills at the risk of limb. As for the ability to win games, his team having wins in the win column means he "won" the game in so far as he was a member of a "team".

Blind homerism? Yeah, good job there reasonable argument man. It'd be more convincing if one were to call you blindly disdainful of Henne. Seriously. I can post arguments as to why I think a certain way, provide statistical data and accompanying explanations, and you think you have some sort of monopoly on right where you can back up absolutely nothing save for the phrase "just watch the games" and end debate? Please. The only two games I missed were the final Patriots game, and the second half of the Bears game because...just no. I have a vested interest in the NY Jets failing so I even watched some of their games. Believe me when I say, no, Mark Sanchez is not as good as you think he is.

Now what do you propose we do? Draft one of these QB's as day 1 starters when the only one who has consistently been projected as first round talent every time is Blaine Gabbert? Sign a vet to win 10 games and never be able to draft the franchise QB that usually just grows on trees?

 

When the Steelers stopped the Jets running game they exposed Sanchez, he looked worse than Henne.
Matty Ice and Flacco without their running game looked like ****.

 

That's exactly right. I am one of the few on this board who have been arguing for the last two years that Sanchez will be better than Henne, but Sanchez hasn't played better yet. He has had better team results b/c his coaches have done a better job of putting him in position to be successful and his F.O. has done a better job of putting complimentary players in place. If Henne were to receive similar support there is no reason to believe that the Dolphins could achieve similar team success. IMO Henne is not the answer, but it's obvious that we can win with him until we can find a true upgrade.

 

I am not saying Sanchez is not a decent NFL QB but I will say, the Jets gave the guy a heck of a lot more weapons to go to. One huge advantage the Jets had this season was a basically injury free Oline for the entire season. I cannot remember them even coming close to swapping people around on the Oline like we did. That, in itself, is a huge huge advantage. If our Oline stays healthy like theirs did, I honestly believe, even with Henne back there, we have a completely different season , win loss wise. Add to that we lost Hartline who is not pro bowl but still is a good target. Jets lost who at WR due to injuries ? If someone got dinged up they had someone just as good at WR or RB to put in there. Our problem was our starting offense was pretty dam good but when we had people go down, our replacements were no where near the talent level as the starters.

I also believe the Jets Oline coach is head and shoulders better then the guy we have. The better depth they have also allows them to be far more aggressive then we were last year.

 

OK then, would you kindly explain to me the REAL reason Henne was benched last season. If it wasnt his ineffectiveness- what was it.

 

To find out if the OC had finally just simply parted his moorings, or maybe to see if it was the OC's obsession to brainwash all QB's in general to understand that focusing on not throwing interceptions in order to kick a field goal was the primary purpose of the a QB's life in the NFL! That might have had something to do with it. Oh, and perhaps the need for the then current (and still incumbent) administration to take some of the heat off of the coaching staff!