It really sucks that all of this lockout crap is going on right now, I really think this year's draft could be one of the most fun for Dolphins fans. We have no clue what direction we are going to go with the first pick, do we take a QB like Locker or maybe Cam falls do we take a chance on him, do we take the "low risk" pick in Ingram, maybe we can trade back and pick up a 2nd round pick. Really could be one fun draft for the Dolphins and its all being overshadowed by this stupid lockout. Damn Shame.
It is also nonsense, Hartline's YPC is better than Ginn's, this idea that adding someone to the outside as a cureall is simply wrong. The problem lays with #7 not hitting plays down the field, even when Ginn was here this was an issue. Not feeling the SS selection either.
We need someone opposite of Marshall who can create Mike Wallace or Desean Jackson type plays to open up the offense and keep the safeties on their toes and Hartline doesn't possess that trait
Disagree, Hartline is a fine deep threat, the problem is Henne never hits on long passes. Put it this way, when we had Ted Ginn, Henne was no more of a threat to throw the ball deep down the field.
They are two of the best wide receivers in the NFL. They are not easy to replicate. We did have a player like them; his name was Ted Ginn and he was not very good. Speed opens up an offense only when it's utilized properly.
Ted Ginn functionally did not do anything to alter coverage for this team, for all his speed. Teams did not "respect" his speed, if anything they disrespected his ability to bring it into play. He didn't alter coverage for other players positively. He didn't keep safeties out of the box, or teams from flooding the short area. People bring up Mike Wallace and Desean Jackson as examples, but it's a hard type of player to find, and the vast majority of the league somehow gets by without players like that. You can't simply draft any fast player and have that kind of impact, and furthermore, they've got high quality quarterback play with good deep ball ability.
I'm not a fan of Ginns but this just isnt true. He did get double coverage a lot because of his speed. He outran corners and safeties had to pick him up. Of course there was nobody on our team that really demanded double coverage and he saw it much of it by default. Lets be real clear about the fact that Ginn is not a #1 reciever on any team and we tried to make him one which was a big mistake. If you put Ginn opposite of someone who does legitamatily demand double coverage it creates missmatches for defenses to plan around. Ginn wont take the hard hit over the middle and will run out of bounds short of the marker but he also can catch and he is a guy to throw to downfield on the fly for big yards. Defenders can not, not cover him. I think him, Marshall and Bess would of all complimented one anothers skill sets and created a more effective passing game then we had last year. It was a mistake to let him go for a 5th. Not to mention Ginn also provided us with big return potential. This team is in no postion to piss away talent for 5th rd picks when we are held together by bubble gum and shoe strings.
Hartline isn't a fine deep threat and he isn't the answer at the #2 WR spot we need someone with speed who will be able to run by people and create some open space on offense. Last year Marshall said he saw the most double team and triple team in his career which means other players were getting single team and they really didn't make most of that opportunity(except for Bess) so if we get a speed #2 WR it will mean that Marshall will see less double and triple team and if not than that WR should have 1 on 1 coverage most of the time and he can use his speed to get by the coverage. We already have a top 5 WR and a top 5 slot WR if we can have a speed guy on the outside to open things up it will work out great for us in the passing game because you can't double team them all.
Titus Young is the guy I think we should draft, he can return kicks and punts and be that #2 WR we need
This is true; however, even though the majority of the league lacks that elite burner, most teams have better overall speed at WR & TE to where they can do without a great speed guy. We don't have that luxury. I'll take a 4.5 guy if he's a legitimate & reliable threat downfield to where his presence needs to be respected.
I remember discussing this in the forum 2 seasons ago---- that Ted was frequently doubled b/c his speed was too much for most CBs to handle. Heck, on the TD pass over Revis, there were about 3 guys clumped behind him IIRC. lol.
I disagree. Henne didn't have a lot of opportunity to hit players downfield. Sometimes it was because his WR's didn't get separation and most of the time it was due to the ******ed play calling. Ginn's last season here showed that Henne can hit a speedster who gets some separation.
This. I don't care about Hartline. I care about Marshall. Brandon's our focus on offense and the #2 spot should be an accent piece. Brian accents nothing but his own stats, which are mediocre IMO for a #2 WR seeing a boat load of single coverage. I don't think we necessarily need a "speed guy" per say as the answer (and I say that b/c this draft class isn't very impressive speed wise). Rather than possibly "forcing" the pick this year and striking out, it might be wise to focus on a guy who has the greatest potential for dominating single coverage & making plays. IMO Greg Little is the guy for that. We might be able to get him with our 3rd round pick, and he is more of a sure thing IMO than Titus Young or Edmund Gates. Greg's not a burner, but his big play ability has to be respected (and he has the ability to make plays downfield).
Did you know last season Brady's passing percentage was under 50% when the ball traveled greater than 10 yards in the air?
He got double teamed a lot because of the routes he ran, and it really doesn't have anything to do with his skills or physical ability. You could line up Rex Ryan and have him run a variety of common routes vs. a variety of bread and butter coverage shells and he would be double teamed. If he didn't die first, you could have him double teamed the majority of the game just by virtue of a teams style of defense and the routes he ran. Ginn had the potential, very rarely, to catch a defense sleeping. But it was because of a lack of respect, if anything. Take his famed touchdown vs. Revis. Revis didn't hardly touch him off the line, let him behind him, and then Kerry Rhodes was late because he was paying more attention to what was happening elsewhere on the field than what Ginn was doing. Given the amount of times Ted Ginn caught bubble screens when he was here, I'm quite confident that Brian Hartline has been double teamed more than Ted Ginn was.
A perfect description. Of Brian Hartline. He will occasionally get behind the defense, with the help of a play fake, double move or flea flicker, but other than that he's not running past anyone. If the ball is in the air 50/50 type balls, Hartline isn't coming down with them. Throw him a short pass, he's not really going anywhere with it. He has inflated YAC/YPC numbers mainly because he is almost always single covered. He's not making guys miss when he catches the ball the way Bess does, he's catching the ball in space, normally w/o only one defender in position to make a tackle. Contrast that w/ Marshall who is constantly doubled, and even when he does make a catch he's instantly being swarmed b/c the defense is focused on him. We need a guy who can make teams pay for paying too much attention to Marshall and Bess, or better yet, force them to stop doing it. Teams dared Hartline to make plays all year, and he didnt make a single one. People say, well he had such and such many catches/ yards. So? Single Marshall, or Bess, or any good WR on a consistent basis and they are going to put up a lot more than 4 catches for 52 yards w/ just as many fumbles as TDs (1). Not good enough.
Your argument here, and frequently many of the similiar arguments I've seen on this topic are built on an unrealistic concept of pass coverage. Yes, he is almost always single covered. So was Brandon Marshall, and every other wide receiver in the NFL. The best wide receivers in the NFL do not get double coverage on every play. The best wide receivers in the NFL do not get double coverage on the majority of snaps he will take on a season. From time to time you will see it being a fundamental aspect of a defensive gameplan in the context of a single game, but it's a tool that is used in specific circumstances, not a blanket treatment, and it's fairly uncommon. The most I've seen it as of late was when Randy Moss was at the top of his game with Tom Brady, and even then, it's a catch-22. There are circumstantial double teams, in which a player who is covered by one defender in man coverage will be picked up by a defender in zone coverage, but it's not targeting a specific player, it would be the same for Brian Hartline, or any other player including a Tackle lined up as a Tight End and running a route if they ran into a deep zone. There are situations when there are multiple players in a relatively small area of zone coverage relative to your normal circumstances, but it's not a double team, and if that's targeting a player, it's still dependent on him running a route in that area. Brian Hartline produced what he produced on his own merits.
So what you're saying is it was coincidental that Marshall typically had multiple guys around him or sitting on top of him? Don't buy it. Or maybe you're saying that Hartline is the better receiver, so we chose to put him, not Brandon, in more situations with less defenders around him so that Brian could exploit it? lol. Apparently Marshall's pedestrian YAC Avg compared to the rest of the team wasn't an indication of drawing extra coverage?? Dont buy that either. Other teams have stated that they combo cover him as much as possible to keep Brandon from going off.
No, that's not what I'm saying, and I don't know where there is any ambiguity in what I am saying. Brandon Marshall drew some extra attention, mostly different forms of bracket coverage, but overwhelmingly, these kind of attentions are going to be helpful to guys lined up on the same side of the field as him, not the opposite side of the field. That's Davone Bess much, much more than it is Brian Hartline.
How'd he do with Michael Crabtree oppostie him this past year? Ginn is garbage And we didnt piss away talent for a 5th, Nolan Carroll did more this season as a rookie (decent kick return average, and a int) than Ginn did for the 49ers.
Digustipate is right... Hartline didn't really get affected that much other than safeties sometimes shading Marshall's side more. Teams didn't really put 2-3 men on Marshall. They ran brackets and coverages that Henning had Marshall running into constantly. However, I am not happy with Hartline as our designated explosive player on offense. He's good, but not the guy I want to depend on for explosive plays.
How about facing a defense's #2 corner while a safety is shaded toward Marshall and LBs are more conscious of him than Brian? If people are going to tell me that defenses played Marshall & Hartline even up <without extra attention to Brandon>, then I'm calling BS. I've heard enough interviews and post game comments about teams saying they combo covered Brandon etc to make sure he wouldn't beat them..... and Brandon has alluded to the same thing. No disrespect to anyone, but what part of Marshall saying he's been double and triple teamed more this year than any other are people not comprehending? That's b/c no one is scared of Hartline beating them so they can afford to pay Brandon extra attention.
No one is saying this, and there is gonna be situations in which Hartline can take advantage of the attention that Marshall gets. But it's not even close to a valid explanation for Hartline's stats, or his YPC, or whatever. I don't see anyone failing to comprehend other than you. Extra attention is largely going to be something that is going to benefit players on the same side. Even in that narrow example that you suggested, it's wholly dependent on Hartline actually running a route which takes advantage of the safety being rolled away from him, which is a small handful of routes on the tree, and the safety being unable to make it to cover the zone. How much video you got of that, out of curiosity?
