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Dolphins Need Receivers....

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 24, 2014.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    I've heard this repeated a lot. Sometimes WR is put forward as a top need for the team. Please can someone explain to me the case for this because I find it utterly puzzling.

    I understand that we don't have some all-pro mega-receiver but I don't see that as equating to a 'need'. If it did then we'd 'need' players is almost every position.

    To me it's obvious that WR is one of our deepest positions and one could argue it's the position of least need along with DE.

    Instead, real positions of need are LB, TE, OL and then the secondary.

    I honesty find the WR talk puzzling. So can someone please explain it?
     
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  2. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic 30 years and counting Club Member

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    IMO, our top need is at CB. Finnegan was - at best - a bandaid. J Taylor is OK. Jimmy Wilson is god awful.
    Our WR corps is good, but not great. what they lack is any kind of end zone threat at the position.
     
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  3. LBsFinest

    LBsFinest Banned

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    receiver is definitely a need, especially when you consider the strong possibility that both Hartline and Gibson won't be here next year.
     
  4. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    I see that as a TE need, not WR, although it could be argued either way I suppose.



    Yeah, this is the sort of comment that inspired this thread. Can you give a reason why R is a "definite need"? Saying Hartline and Gibson won't be here isn't really a reason.
     
  5. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

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    This season we're fine. But if both Hartline and Gibson are gone, it's absolutely a need. You then only have 3 WRs on the roster when you typically need 5/6.

    Adding a WR with size would also be nice for both the endzone and perimeter. Currently, we have no one who can win a jump ball on the perimeter. A guy you can just chuck it to deep and he'll go and get it.
     
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  6. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    WR is like the 7th biggest need on this team
     
  7. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    The team doesn't gain a lot by cutting Hartline. I'm not sure why some are calling for him to be released. Gibson likely will be. Big cap savings and he's clearly no better than 4th on the depth chart right now.
     
  8. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

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    In pretty sure we can save 4mil by cutting Hartline...
     
  9. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    It's closer to 7 I believe
     
  10. PhinishLine

    PhinishLine Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Some people just feel that in order to be successful and have a "legit" WR corps, you need Megatron, AJ Green, Dez on your team. This is despite the fact that the most successful offenses.....NE, GB, IND, PHI, don't. Our WR corps isn't sexy. But it is effective.
     
  11. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    that
    According to Over the Cap, we'd save 3.1 by cutting Hartline, but take a 4.2 dead money hit. Going upside down like that doesn't seem wise to me unless we had a lot of free cap space and wanted to get him off the books clear in 2016. I doubt thats the case.
     
  12. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    No, it's really not. In fact, we won't save all much by cutting Hartline. His salary for next season is 5.9 million. If you cut him then 3/5th of his 7 million dollar signing bonus gets accelerated into the cap, which is about 4.2 million. Hence you're only saving about 1.7 million against the cap unless you designate him a post June 1st cut.
     
  13. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I wouldn't put WR as a top need but if we have the chance to replace Hartline with someone faster and more physical there is no reason we shouldn't.
     
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  14. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Rosen Staff Member Club Member

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    I'm definately not opposed to drafting a bigger WR to take over as a long term option (maybe as soon as 2016), but I'd say there's better than a 90% chance that Wallace, Landry and Hartline are our top 3 WR going into 2015.
     
  15. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    As long as Hartline is our #2 option we will be leaving yards and points on the field over the course of the seasons he plays. In my opinion he's just not very talented in terms of being a flexible player. Right now he's a square peg in a round hole.

    If nothing else I'd like to see if Matthews can overtake him.
     
  16. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Miami needs to dramatically restructure their wide receivers this off-season. They should be cutting Hartline, Gibson, and if they can't trade him, Wallace(with the June 1st designation). All three of them are overpaid and under-performing.

    Size would be nice, but someone with big play ability is more important. They don't have that right now.
     
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  17. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    Can't help but notice you left out Denver. Dallas is also one of the better offenses in the league right now due in large part to dez. Oh and you think Jordy Nelson doesn't belong with those guys? *hint:right he's better than all of them*
     
  18. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

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    Wallace isn't a #1 WR... but he can be a nice piece to a WR corps. And we'll pay more if we cut him than if we keep him next year... so he's here unless he gets traded.
     
  19. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity Staff Member

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    Looking at what the Dolphins have been able to achieve on the field this season I have to say that we're doing fine at WR. Upgrades are always possible but we're fine. The ball is moving, catches are being made. The big problem, as many have noted, is in the red zone, but for me that is a tight-end issue, we have no real depth there, and even Clay is someone I see has a great TE in the open field, but nothing special in the end-zone. Bringing in a big tight end would ease that whole scenario (I think a good part of the red zone problems come down to play calling and the lack of power-house running due to RB and OL).

    Last night at Denver might be a solid example. The offense did a great job, although the removal of James saw T17 under more pressure, and the run game slowly dwindled. I believe that reinforcing the OL and the run game will do far more for the receiving game than playing musical chairs with receivers (especially because any problems in the run game and OL will adversely affect any WR play no matter who is brought in).
     
  20. rafael

    rafael Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly. Other than the lack of size, I liked or receiver corp coming into the season. But looking forward it seems likely that we'll go into next season with just Wallace, Landry and Matthews on the team. At a minimum we'll need bodies at WR. And while I like those three, nobody would look at them and think, "we're set at WR".
     
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  21. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I think the secondary remains the biggest area of need. Other than Grimes, I just don't have much confidence in anyone else in the entire secondary.

    At safety, Jones plays well at times, but seems to disappear when the Dolphins go up against the better QB's in the NFL. Delmas has been a slight upgrade from Clemons, but he still isn't the impact type safety the better defenses seem to have.

    CB is probably the biggest need at this time because other than Grimes, there really isn't another CB on the team who can be counted on to make plays in big games.

    I think Jenkins probably had his worse game yesterday, but I still think he is a keeper at the LB position. I also liked what I saw from McCain earlier in the season, but the coaches don't seem to have a lot of confidence in him at this time. Hopefully with another off season, he can develop into a player who can be a starter on this team as an outside LB.

    As far as Wheeler, Ellerbe and Misi are concerned, I really don't see any of them being an answer at the LB position for the Dolphins in the future. They all need to be replaced and hopefully the replacements will be found before the start of next season.

    On offense the two biggest needs going into next season seem to be filling the two guard positions, once Pouncey returns to center. With Pouncey at center and James and Albert at the tackle positions, three out of five offensive line spots appear in good hands heading into next season. Perhaps Thomas will continue to improve and he can take over one of the guard positions.

    Hickey and the coaches need to determine if one of the young offensive lineman can fill the other guard position next year or if this position needs to be filled in free agency or early in the draft.

    I still feel that getting a big TE who can block and also get open down the middle of the field remains a big need for this team.

    Depending on what the Dolphins decide to do with Hartline and Gibson after this season, the WR position may also be an area of need going into next season.

    While it isn't a need early in the draft, I wouldn't mind seeing the Dolphins use a late round pick to replace Stugis. He has not been an upgrade from Carpenter and his inability to kick the ball through the end zone in Denver yesterday appears to show that his leg strength isn't as strong as it was suppose to be coming out of college.
     
  22. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wallace saves like $3-4 million if cut, and then like nearly $7 million vs. the '15 cap if he's a June 1st designation I believe.

    There's also a rather big issue with Wallace behaving when you find that #1 guy, or someone who is getting "his" deep passing attempts. If Wallace is going to perform like he did in '13, he's detrimental to the offense.
     
  23. Phins_Fan_87

    Phins_Fan_87 Phins and Heat fan Club Member

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    wr is not that big of a need. OL, CB, TE are all bigger needs
     
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  24. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    This is a straw man argument. Bringing in Maclin would be a significant upgrade, so would Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, and T.Y. Hilton. NE does it's damage with a huge TE who produces like a receiver. People believe that having good receivers is what makes you successful. By pretending like someone is saying we should have four Calvin Johnson's on this team, you're indicating that either you're not interested in actually discussing it, or you can't discuss it competently so you're making things up.
     
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  25. PhinishLine

    PhinishLine Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't see how. I'm not arguing for it. Some people just feel like you need a 6 foot 4 Calvin Johnson on the squad. These are people I talk to at the sports bar. It always goes back to...we need someone like Dez....we need someone like Calvin Johnson. I personally don't feel that way at all. I PREFER a GB or NE type of offense because they are super multiple. But there is an opinion out there that we have no ALPHA receiver. I'd take any of those guys you/I mentioned on my team. But, I don't think it's a huge need. We have plenty of needs on this team than saying we need T.Y. Hilton in order to make our WR corps work. Give Ryan some more time and those boys could get busy.

    And have we not reached the quota on "hyperbole" and "strawman" yet? If not, we gotta be close.
     
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  26. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End

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    Receiver is not a position of need on this squad. You can honestly debate about whether we are getting everything out of Wallace for what we are paying him and we could use a big endzone target. But need? I don't think so. And our secondary is pretty good too other than having 3 guys go down for the year in the last three games AND losing Finnegan for a couple games. They are the walking wounded out there. I also disagree on the assessment of Finnegan, he has played well as a number 2 corner for us. Sure could have used him yesterday. I am about over Mr Wilson though. I don't care how good he is supposed to be at the nickle. Offensive line is another banged up unit. Sure we could use a bit more depth there but what team couldn't.

    Our single biggest weakness is the same as it was to start, Linebacker. We have had good play out of Misi, and Jenkins has been a nice surprise. But really isn't much depth and outside of Misi and Jenkins, who has played really well on that unit. Like to see more of McCain but the staff has reservations about him, apparently anyway.
     
  27. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You need to have 3 quality receivers. When you play against an elite team they are going to scheme against your #1. If you have a Revis he then takes your #2 out of the equation. That's where the 3rd guy needs to produce.

    With Wallace and Landry I think we have the 1st 2. I thought Hartline would be that 3rd option but he has disappeared this year. Wonder what the problem is with his lack of production. Even if it is just catches and not YAC he was the 3rd down getting you a 1st down guy.
     
  28. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Its not fair to lump in the people who would like to draft a young playmaker at a low salary with the people who think we absolutely can't win without one.

    We can win without one. Having one who fits the offense would just make it a lot easier to score points and convert drives late to eat clock. Especially on a rookie contract.
     
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  29. Jersey Dolfan

    Jersey Dolfan New Member

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    I'm not sure if the front office is thinking we need to cut bait with Hartline and Gibson, but i WOULD NOT, and i also would not just assume that is a done deal.

    Not everything in the NFL is about how much money you can save, it is about being solid and deep at every possible position. So while hartline and wallace may not be putting up the numbers compared to their price tag, as long as we only have small net savings by cutting them, and/or do not need that money to replace them, then we won't cut them.

    This offense spreads the ball around, and quite frankly this offense and Ryan have been playing pretty good as of late. Hartline and Gibson are not putting up 1,000 yard seasons, but each has made good catches, with Gibson making some really good grabs the past few games, and Hartline keeping drives alive, and advancing the football several yards in each of our last 2 games. These are solid pieces of our offense, and I think they either restructure/extend in order to free up some space to keep our other guys, or they just stay at least through next year. We have other areas of need on this team that we need to fill through the draft, and we don't have the money to cut these guys just to sign other FA's at that position. WR is solidified for the foreseeable future and i have no desire to shake that up with other needs on the team. Imagine if any one or 2 of the WRs currently on the roster went down to injury?? We would be in trouble if we were to just cut 2 of our reliable guys.
     
  30. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    Problem is you don't pay Hartline and Gibson $10 million dollars to make a few "nice" catches
    you pay for production and neither has lived up to their salaries this season and both could be replaced for
    far less $$$ which could be used to shore up other positions of need.

    2 tds between them this season is sad...

    Hartline has 8 tds in the last 75 games...Landry has 5 tds in 11 games

    Hartline by far has to be one of the most overpaid players in the NFL this season
    and it's time to send him on his way
     
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  31. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I think it depends what you think of Hartline. I was calling to replace him even during his 1, 000 yard seasons because he's a limited athlete. Not only that, but he doesn't mesh with Wallace well skill set wise or fit our offense well. I've never been a fan of him as the #2 receiver.

    I'd try and aqcuire someone in the draft and go about it one of a few ways.

    A) Keep Hartline for a season while the pick develops into a #2 receiver.
    B) Go into the draft wanting to take a few specific WRs and just stick with Hartline another year if none are available.
    C) Draft a guy and cut Hartline after June 1st if that player really comes on.
     
  32. Pennington's Limp Arm

    Pennington's Limp Arm Well-Known Member

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    Landry is elevating his game and improving every week. Wallace is still a useful weapon the defense must always account for. Sure he hasn't lived up to his contract value, but he is still an asset. They do need to upgrade Hartline, but I don't think they need a 'top end' guy necessarily. I think Tanny is at his best when he is spreading the ball around, so three good wideouts and a healthier Clay next year should be plenty for RT.

    Cornerback depth is a huge need and adding to the linebacker core are the two things I want to see addressed.
     
  33. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Club Member

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    You could be right... but it was my understanding that he would cost more to cut than keep next year...
     
  34. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    next draft there are needs, wr is not one of them. we need to draft the best L/B available, then the best availble at each pick. the team is in very good shape, providing we don't lose major pieces & can maintain the roster. let them perfect the system, let them compete.
     
  35. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/miami-dolphins/mike-wallace/

    The salary cap implications are as far as I know are [cap hit] - [dead] = total savings, so Mike Wallace would save $2.5 million if normally cut. If he were June 1st designated, only his 2015 cap would accelerate to this year, meaning the "dead" number would be $5.2 million rather than $9.6, so he would save $6.9 this year, but cost $4.4 million in 2016 instead of nothing.
     
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  36. muskrat21

    muskrat21 Well-Known Member

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    so, gronk, nelson, cobb, wayne, hilton, and maclin... I would take any of them over what is here now, and that includes landry.
     
  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Gibson with a handful of fumbles yesterday doesn't bolster anyone's case for keeping him around. Not only has he disappeared, but when he reappeared, he tried to give the ball away. Thankfully Miller was able to get to the one that stayed in the field of play.
     
  38. PhinishLine

    PhinishLine Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's not the point I'm trying to make. I'd take them too. But I don't think them not being on the team is what's keeping us from being a 11/12 win team vs a 9/10 win team. Some people make that case though.
     
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  39. ASUFinFan

    ASUFinFan Uh huh

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    Jaelen Strong, guy is a beast. I'd add him to this team in a heartbeat.
     
  40. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Noone can say what the results would be with a guy like that. However in myopinion youre talking the difference between 3-4 red zone FGs turning into TDs at the very least and an increased ability to convert late first downs like we needed against Detroit and Green Bay.

    Plus its not a huge investment to try and draft a player and pay him his rookie contract. I'm not for signing another big money guy but I'm all for it at the expense of a mid-late first rounder.

    Aside from that, and this is 100% my humble opinion but....there are always well priced FA players on defense. So I'd rather try and draft what doesn't come along often, easily or cheaply.
     

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