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Dolphins announce they will be staying inside for anthem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Puka-head, Sep 11, 2020.

  1. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Do the people that live in the inner cities have a responsibility to create nice neighborhoods? I mean, I see in New Hampshire, which is obviously far from being an inner city, nice subsidized housing built, only to see the people that end up living in it turning them into slums. So yes, I agree that providing nice neighborhoods is important, but I also believe that some of the people living there make them bad. Like the apartments in inner cities weren't gross and dangerous when they were built, know what I mean?

    Yes, I agree that there are communities that don't allow people to come in. I've watched interviews with people from the 30s or 40s, maybe 50s, of whites who had moved into newly built subdivisions, who were selling and moving out because black families were being allowed to move in. They cited concerns over property values dropping as their reasoning. Please note, I'm not trying to validate that kind of thinking, just acknowledging that the mindset definitely exists, and has for many decades.
     
  2. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Also, that article is interesting... however, there is no way of knowing from that whether the second appraiser wouldn't have given that property a fair value if those steps hadn't been taken.

    Terrible though that that sort of stuff does happen every day.
     
  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Do you believe these people, if given the chance would just create a bad neighborhood?

    Do you think there is just something wrong with poor people?

    In New Hampsire, were those houses built up to code? It would take me a while to find an article, but a lot of those subsidized housing weren't nice, but had a lot of issues. The poor people couldn't keep up with a lot of unnecessary repairs, and then they were blamed for not being able to keep their neighborhood nice.

    It is all part of the narative that there is something wrong with people who are poor and there is something right with people who are rich.
     
  4. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    There are enough examples to show that this is a problem.
     
  5. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think we're already doing it right here, and this conversation needs to spill into neighborhoods, police departments and political offices across the country.

    I mean, my goal was to help you understand my role as a prison officer...not to justify my actions or anything, but just to help you understand how life/death my reality was in some instances. I've had black friends do the same for me to help me realize that they feel trapped, bullied and treated unfairly. Heck, some black/hispanic friends used stories from when we were teens and were stopped by the cops together....I felt completely safe in those situations where they were just waiting to go to jail or get attacked/set up by police officers. I was physically there and didn't see what they saw, because our worlds were ultimately so different in reality.

    So I think it's critical that we all share our stories and unique perspectives to understand "the other side". For instance, I was 100% "blue lives matter" a year ago and honestly, I was 100% wrong because I couldn't fully see the depth of these problems...that's not where my life experiences have brought me. We can't just say clean up poor communities just like we can't say it's all the police's fault...every single one of us has a part to play in this.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that my thinking has evolved because I took the time to listen and empathize with others who don't share my exact ideals in life. Yet these were good people, hard working people, who love their families just as much as I do and would help a stranger in need without a second thought. Most criminals are exactly the same; for instance, smoking crack doesn't mean you're not a good person...it means you made a bad choice and became a drug addict. Now you have to steal to support your habit because that's your reality. We look down on crackheads and criminals when honestly, we should be asking ourselves how we could actually help them get back to being productive members of society.

    The truth is that we have far more in common than we'd like to believe and we have to use that to come together everywhere in society....from the grocery store to church to town hall meetings. And I really think we get there by having these awkward conversations where we are probably a little bit misguided in our lines of thinking.

    I'm enjoying this conversation with you guys...I think it's helpful and productive for all of us.
     
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  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    That's a strawman. I never said it wasn't a problem. In fact, I said it's terrible that that scenario happens every day. However, the example in the article does not prove that. The first assessor could have simply been a racist jerk, and threee second wasn't, and would have given a fair assessment regardless. We aren't able to determine that from the article.
     
  7. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    That is not a strawman.

    You are using that word incorrectly.

    I don't know why you saw what I wrote as an attack. That was not my intention.
     
  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's a strawman because you are seeming to say that I'm denying it's a problem, ands you are basing an argument against something I didn't say. I didn't take it as an attack, but that you are thinking that I don't think there's a problem with that occurring.

    I do believe it occurs, I just don't believe that the article shared shows that.
     
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I didn't say that nor did I mean it that way
     
  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    All right then.
     
  11. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    His silence in no way shape or form means that he agrees with an assassination attempt. Ludicrous. He doesn't owe the LAPD anything. They are the law enforcement department with billions in their budget and they can do their job. What LeBron is doing is speaking up for those who have historically been oppressed and in cases like Breonna Taylor's, where the dirty cops STILL ARE FREE. That doesn't also require him to speak out in support of authority figures.
     
  12. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Why do you say the officers in the Breonna Taylor case are dirty? Honestly, I don't understand the anger towards the actual officers in that case. From what I've read on the case, Castle Doctrine protects her boyfriend for his shooting on sometime entering his residence, and the officers who were there executing a legal no knock warrant are protected legally for returning fire after they were fired upon, one of them being hit. I completely agree that 21 (I think it was 21) shots being fired into a dark apartment could be construed as negligent, but I don't understand the call for prosecuting those officers for murder.

    I'm very glad that they did away with no-knock warrants.
     
  13. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I find it funny how the LA sheriff is trying to call out LeBron for the value of lives when his own deputies leaked the details of Kobe Bryant's death to TMZ.
     
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  14. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    I think the very first thing that needs to happen is serious reform of the criminal justice system. The war on drugs has created too many crimes with mandatory minimum sentences. Studies like the Harvard one I posted have proven that minorities, especially Black and Latinos are many times more likely to be charged with crimes that carry mandatory minimums that they can't plea out of. 3 strike laws that send someone to jail for 20 yrs for a 3rd minor infraction have to go too. Start with abolishing those laws.

    Key mentioned earlier this thread that it would cost less to pay for an education, at any level, than it does to incarcerate someone for having a joint in their pocket. So do that. Turn minimum security prisons into minimum security tech schools and community colleges. The number of repeat offenders will decrease drastically.

    Decriminalize possession of ALL drugs. Drug addiction is not a crime, it's a disease. And a symptom of societal disease. Address the mental health crisis in this country so people can get the help they need instead of the cycle of arrest, "hospital", release, repeat.

    And not de-funding the police, but de-militarizing them. Bring back beat cops who are a part of their communities partnering with the citizens instead of being in conflict with them. But before the police can regain trust and respect in the community they need to find a way to trust and respect the people in the community. Even the less than angelic ones.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  15. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Too many relevant posts to reply to any particular one.

    Renor, I’m going to play Devils Advocate here...let’s say for the sake of conversation that fentanyl and meth is what actually killed Floyd.

    Floyd is subdued, in cuffs, unarmed and face down in the pavement. (Still trying to figure that one out when he was previously seated on the sidewalk in cuffs)

    Floyd is clearly seen non combative

    Floyd is clearly heard saying “I can’t breathe” multiple times

    Officer Lane asked if he should be turned on his side

    There were 4 police officers present.

    I know every law enforcement agency has their version of Army Regulation 190-5 governing use of force and AR 190-5 clearly states using the minimum amount of force necessary

    Now, had Floyd been left sitting on the sidewalk, cuffed and died as a result of the drugs in his system, no police action could be attributed to his death.

    Had Floyd been placed in the back of the police vehicle, cuffed and died of the drugs in his system, no police action could be attributed to his death.

    But for over 8 minutes, an unarmed, restrained prisoner is being restrained in the prone position with a knee on his neck...when he SHOULD have been in the police vehicle...with 3 other officers there for back-up, the subject saying multiple times he can’t breathe and a rookie officer asking about putting him on his side?

    I’m sorry, Chauvin used excessive force and failed in his most duty as a police officer...to protect LIFE.

    And remember...I’m the staunch conservative here
     
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  16. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Sorry, I have to agree with Finatik here. If Lebron James is going to use his celebrity to call for an end to police brutality against the black community...

    If he’s using his celebrity to call for social justice then he can use his celebrity equally to call for the social justice for two police officers gunned down in such a cowardly fashion.

    After all, don’t these police officers...these 2 human beings deserve the same justice as everyone else?

    And well, you decided you wanted to involved Lebron so...get involved. Otherwise, you’re being nothing more than an activist, a tool for someone else’s agenda and you should have kept your mouth shut...like the Dolphins are doing by staying in the locker room
     
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  17. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I honestly couldn't tell you if they were to code. They were built in the last 20 years. But by nice, I meant clean. And I've seen some in my town stay reissuing decent. I've seen some a couple towns over, be places you wouldn't want to live...not necessarily because of anything other than the tire if people living there, and activities that many are engaged in.

    I don't believe there is anything wrong with someone being poor. Being poor doesn't make you a bad person. Just like being rich doesn't make you a good person.
     
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  18. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm not saying he didn't use excessive force. I'm saying, how do we know that, in a legal sense. For instance, my first thought, from my experience working with juvenile offenders, when I saw the Floyd video, was that there was no way a knee on the neck was a trained restraint. I thought he was absolutely outside of policy.

    Then I found out it was a trained restraint.

    So I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying, I don't know.

    And I'm a pretty staunch conservative myself.
     
  19. The Guy

    The Guy Well-Known Member

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    This is an extremely important consideration, because in several of the recent events involving police violence, there has been no indication that the events that occurred wouldn't have occurred had the race of the offender/victim been different (Caucasian, Asian, Native American, etc.). There has been no evidence produced that the police officers' actions during these events were racially motivated, versus being motivated by some other factor(s).

    Is there systemic racism in the United States? Perhaps, and probably so. However, an appraisal of its severity, as well as the approach taken to address it, need to be based on an accurate application of that concept to events that occur, and there is no way of knowing whether that concept can be accurately applied to several of the recent events that have gotten widespread media attention.

    I suspect the more accurate concept to be applied to these events is the increased permissiveness of authoritarianism and violence. And that I suspect is a product of the current POTUS.
     
  20. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    The police are going to get their justice or at least they are going to try really hard.

    It isn't the same.
     
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  21. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    You keep going back to the officers actions being a "trained" restraint. Technically speaking yes. However if you read what the actual training is they violated every step in the process.
    1) That technique is only supposed to be used in order to be able to handcuff a combative suspect. Floyd was already cuffed, and had been for a while.
    2) They are trained to know that use of this technique "typically" causes cardiac arrest and can lead to asphyxiation. As soon as suspect is cuffed they are supposed to put them on their sides in a "recovery" position, which officer Lane tried to do. Twice. No where in the training are they taught to kneel on a suspects neck for 8 minutes after they are secured in handcuffs and until they stop breathing and become unresponsive.
    3) Officers are supposed to immediately call for medical response to protect suspects LIFE, they called because they busted his mouth and did not tell EMT's that suspect, at this point victim, was unconscious unresponsive and not breathing. They did nothing to render aid themselves.

    The fact that they are trained in how and when to properly use that restraint convicts Chauvin even more strongly because he consciously and willfully disregarded that training even after being reminded by another officer what he was supposed to do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I believe it specifies that the suspect is combative and cuffed. The reason Floyd was pulled from the cruiser was because he was combative and cuffed.

    I agree that Chauvin didn't follow protocol regarding positional asphyxiation. However, he didn't die from asphyxiation did he? He died from cardiopulmanary arrest...his heart stopped.

    I just don't think this case is as clear cut as it initially appeared from the video.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  23. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Did you not read the first line where it states that "Cardiac arrest TYPICALLY OCCURS" after this kind of action?
     
  24. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    1) He CAN, but he's not obligated. He can choose to focus on the injustice that hits closest to him and a community he represents.
    2) That's not social justice, that's just justice. Yes, they deserve justice, but as cops with the force of an entire billion dollar department for them, they don't NEED people asking for it. It's literally their job.
    3) There is no long history of violence and systemic anti-police sentiment the way there is racism.
     
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  25. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    That is for the "maximal restraint technique which is just securing the feet to the wrists. The knee on the neck part is for getting a suspect under control a putting them in cuffs. The headline on the pictured training document where you see the officer using that technique says "OK, they are in handcuffs, now what?" And further down, "Once in handcuffs call EMS".

    Nowhere are they trained to use the knee on neck tactic on an already cuffed suspect.

    The "cause of death" may very well have been a cardiac arrest instead of asphyxiation, but having a knee on his neck likely caused the cardiac arrest that killed him. We will never know if he may have suffered a coronary without Chauvins involvement, but we do know that he died during his arrest while a police officer was using a restraint he had been trained to know "Cardiac arrest typically occurs".

    But again, trying the Floyd case isn't the subject of this thread. Do you feel there is a problem with systemic racism in this country? Just in General, not specific to any particular neighborhood. Are people of color treated differently from white people by the criminal justice system?
    What if anything do you feel needs to change? How can we accomplish that change? Got any opinions on that?
     
  26. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Really. 58 cops are killed last year by vs. 13 unarmed blacks. Not to mention the numerous injuries they sustained. Not sure why there isn't a movement over the large number of officers killed. And you're trying to tell me that there isn't anti-police sentiment. OK. People just love the police. I don't know too many jobs where you are routinely shot at or physically assaulted. Or called horrific names. But that's ok somehow in the BLM world. Maybe Lebron doesn't have to put up money, but his silence is stunning to not even make a statement. Isn't that what the Left says every time something happens then they call out X,Y or Z out for not making a statement. This my friend is called hypocrisy and a double standard.
     
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  27. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I've thought a lot about this since I worked in the prisons almost 15 years ago, so here's my "shortlist" of what I'd push to change-

    1) Switch prisons from a confinement model to a rehabilitation model. Give prisoners the tools they need to re-enter society with an advantage in finding a great career instead of a handicap. Also, get rid of all that mandatory minimum stuff and create programs specifically for young offenders to get on track in life (career training, counseling, a support network, etc.).

    2) I'm going to try not to be too political here, but a major step is replacing those in office who are more focused on "taking sides" than passing better legislation. Limit bills to one goal only and stop piling up 50 things that require 400 debates to get that one piece of legislation passed. The stimulus checks are a great example- both sides have agreed they need to pass that for months now...but they're debating other parts of the same bill instead of taking action on something that millions American people desperately need. We need to remove a lot of the "politics" from politics and I think that comes with sweeping 30+ year veterans dead-set in their ways out the door...and I'm taking about every political party.

    3) We need social workers and liaisons to respond to a lot of 9-1-1 calls that don't require police armed to the teeth...show communities that the government cares about them and are there to help solve problems instead of complicate them. Likewise, we need more options than sending people to jail or a mental hospital...create "community involvement" programs plus better access to drug treatment programs, sex trafficking, and financial hardships. Police are essential but we ask them to do way too much with way too little resources & training...so let's get some specialists to augment what they do in communities.

    4) We absolutely have to end the stigma that police are out to get you, which means community workshops and discussions like we're having here. Teach poor communities that the government can help them escape poverty thru training & education, plus we create very different legal paths for young & 1st time offenders. None of this works if communities don't work with local government/police to create the change they want to see.

    5) A focus still needs to be in place to "clean up" high crime areas, but I think part of that needs to be economic growth with real opportunities within those communities. What keeps people from obtaining a great job- Is it education? Transportation? Lack of opportunity? Let's reward businesses for establishing themselves in those areas and providing economic opportunity for poor communities.

    6) Teach police officers to de-escalate situations by making fewer arrests on the spot. If they have a suspect's name and information, teach them to walk away if it's a hostile environment or a high stress situation....they can always make the arrest later. Make uniformed officers more like "information collectors" and community liaisons than anything, then schedule arrests in more appropriate areas that can be better controlled. This maybe doesn't work with a murder suspect with a gun, but it works great for a drunk guy sleeping in a drive-thru or a drug addict that might have just passed an illegal $20. Send them home, investigate, then make the arrest later once a case is largely proven...this helps to empty out county jails as well since people won't be sitting there for months as the state builds the case.

    7) Likewise, let's make the right to a speedy trial actually speedy. No arrests until you're ready to go to court and present the case (unless it's a serious felony like rape or murder...but even then you have to have a good foundation of evidence). For instance, my brother was arrested a year ago for a gun possession as a felon and he's innocent (there was a gun in the car with 3 people, the cops decided it was his since he was the only felon). My brother has so many things on hold because that case is pending and he might do real jail time over it...a year is far too long and he could have been sitting in jail this entire time if we didn't bail him out.


    8) Eliminate punishments/repercussions for repeat offenders almost entirely. If someone does something stupid and spends a year in jail, they did their time and should be able to move on with their lives. But because we "label them" for life, they often struggle to get decent jobs and they are often forced to go back to crime. So many instance of our justice system are "one strike and you're out" by design, and it's a big part of how police do their jobs.

    For instance, if you stop three guys on the street and run their backgrounds because there was a theft down the street....and one of those guys did 3 year in jail for burglary in 1989....then he becomes a prime suspect based on absolutely nothing. And maybe he's not arrested on the spot, but he has to go through interviews, being detained, take the polygraph, detail where he's been, etc. just to prove he wasn't at a certain place at a certain time. This is guilty until proven innocent and the cops can hold you up to 72 hours in some cases...which should be illegal. Then three weeks later, there's another theft and that same guy is back in the precinct, being treated like he's guilty and being pulled out of his minimum wage job or misses a shift for absolutely nothing (which he then gets fired from, for absolutely nothing). This is the definition of institutional racism- nobody should be detained because of their past until there's proof saying they did something.

    9) Stop automatic handouts to poor communities (welfare, food stamps, etc.) and make them participation-based. If you can't find a job or able to work, then each "benefit" requires 10 hours a week community service making a difference in your community. This creates education, jobs and resources off of money we're already spending and it ultimately benefits communities. Plus, those looking for free handouts just won't bother....which means states actually save money.

    That's just a start of the things I thought about; the bigger question here is how do we start doing those things? It's impossible under the current administrations that take six months to pass simple laws.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  28. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    The anti police sentiment is not historic or rooted in racism and is largely of their own making. Every single one of those officers killed has the full weight of the justice system out for blood in retaliation.

    The hypocrisy is trying to equate the nonexistent concept of a "blue life" with the historic and systemic racism faced by black lives.
     
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  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I'd vote for you.

    Edit:

    Also, it amazes me that we still use polygraphs when we know they are complete BS.
     
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  30. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I honestly thought about running for governor or state senate, but there's simply no way for a "common person" to do it without massive fundraising through a political party. And I wouldn't want to do it just to "sell out" to big business and special interests...that part of our election system needs to change.
     
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  31. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    You need to start local, and it usually takes a few cycles. It also can be difficult if your area is heavily right or left in the opposite direction of yourself. Once in the door as like a mayor or state house rep, you can work on climbing the ladder but it largely comes down to how charismatic you are and whether your party likes you enough to invest. My brother in laws father is a state rep and while his politics are opposite mine, it is interesting to listen to an "insider" about the process.

    The alternative is basically do something like AOC did and put in tons of time and effort in a politically safe district to flip an incumbent. But that risks alienating the parties donor structure.

    Its all very interesting but also kind of depressing. Without a huge pile of cash on hand, it's super hard to get a foot in.
     
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  32. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    1. You are incorrect about when they can use knee on neck. The link I already provided says this:

    "The training materials specify: "the maximal restraint technique shall only be used in situations where handcuffed subjects are combative and still pose a threat to themselves, officers or others, or could cause significant damage property if not properly restrained...". Accompanying that is a photo of the neck restraint.

    2. I don't think you can carte blanche say that there is systemic racism. Like, for instance, I don't think there is systemic racism in the police departments in NH. There may be in other cities/states. I do think that often laws, like drug laws, unfairly target minorities, especially when talking about inner cities/urban areas. I do support demilitarizing the police force, and I support modifying or doing away with the vast majority of drug laws, and probably 3 strike laws.
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The simple answer to this is freaking term limits. If there were term limits, it would greatly reduce the incentive for dumping money into campaigns, and would remove lobbyists. It would greatly open the door for us "common folk" to have an opportunity to serve in government. Politics has become a career option, so our politicians are often too reticent to actually take a stand on things, as they are afraid they won't get reelected, and this won't have that cash cow career they so desire.
     
  34. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    One of the podcast I listen to has an interview with Nithya Raman and Kate Hill, it is called The Worst Year Ever. Both give a good overview of how to get started in local politics.
     
  35. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Wouldn't that just make more money go into politics since they have a shorter amount of time to build a relationship with the candidates?
     
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  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I don't believe so, I don't believe that the return on investment would be there. Because you could only be elected once, for say 4 years, you, as an elected official, could actually vote for things without worrying about reelection. The current situation has politicians voting for or against things while worrying about needing funds from lobbyists to get reelected. With term limits, there is no incentive to worry about the lobbyists interests when voting, as you can't be reelected.
     
  37. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Studies actually show the reverse, that term limits can increase the influence of money and lobbyists because you have a rotating cast of people who are booted as soon as they start to figure out the landscape.

    Term limits can be part of the solution, but aren't in themselves anything special and aren't really a requirement.

    Getting big money out of politics is important for starters, and I'd look at publicly financing campaigns.
     
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  38. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    But that also means you only have 4 years to make as much money from lobbyists as possible and lobbyists have just as much time to get their pet projects in. They spend millions to get billions. It is a cost effective measure to buy off politicians.

    Plus, as a voter, I would have to learn about a new person every four years? That just adds in a better opportunity for big corporate interests to just create a supply of politicians.

    I think the only way to eliminate it would be to have politicians have to wear the labels of their top doners, eliminate all dark money, and put one of those disclaimers after every add, "This politician is brought to you by...."

    Or publically funded elections.
     
  39. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Slightly left of center
    The maximal restraint technique is a separate deal. It's got nothing to do with a knee on the neck. It means they secure feet and attach that to the hands to completely restrict movement. It is an escalation from the handcuffing process where the knee on the neck was an acceptable tactic. That's what I read anyway.
    I think we need to see the actual training docs, which have become unavailable to get clarity here.
     
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  40. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Studies by who? Who funded them? Unless you're talking about politicians taking money after elected, I don't really agree at all with term limits creating an environment where more money is spent.

    I also think there needs to be an actual cap on what a candidate can spend on their election campaign. I want to say Canada limits to like$30k or something?

    I totally agree, we've got to get money out of politics.
     
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